The Million-Dollar Question

[meltzerboy]

According to one source,

Isaiah 53 was widely recognized as messianic in both Christian and traditional Jewish circles and is one of the clearest messianic passages having references to Jesus. “Undoubtedly, this is the summit of OT prophetic literature. Few passages can rival it for clarity on the suffering, death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah.” (Kaiser, 178) The common response today is that the servant in this passage does not mean a single individual but rather “Israel” (aka, the “national interpretation”). Yet, it is certainly relevant to know that this interpretation simply did not exist even in Jewish sources until the Middle Ages:

Interestingly, the national interpretation" is not found once in the Talmuds, the Targums, or the midrashim (in other words, not once in all the classical, foundational, authortitative Jewish writings). In fact it is not found in any traditional Jewish source until the time of Rashi, who lived in the eleventh century C.E. That is saying something! For almost one thousand years after the birth of Yeshua, not one rabbi, not one Talmudic teacher, not one Jewish sage, left us with an interpretation showing that Isaiah 53 should be interpreted with reference to the nation of Israel…despite the fact that these verses from Isaiah are quoted in the New Testament and are often used in Jewish-Christian debate." (Brown, 41)​

These are the words of Dr. Michael Brown, Messianic Jew and brilliant Christian apologist, who has debated several rabbis concerning scriptural prophecies in the Hebrew Bible linked to the Messiah. Particularly enlightening are his debates, verbal and in writing, with Rabbi Tovia Singer of “Jews for Judaism” fame. This and many other issues are discussed in their debates. Perhaps the Jewish (national) interpretation had not been brought up earlier since there was no need to explain a biblical passage which was quite evident among Jewish thinkers as NOT referring to Jesus, that is, until the Middle Ages when Jewish philosophers took a more reactive role toward Christian theology, perhaps related to European oppression of Jews, as can be viewed in certain famous religious debates of the era, such as those of Nachmanides in Barcelona.

 

[meltzerboy]

Did Jesus establish a “kingdom” before 70 CE that has had worldwide impact? What does “establish” mean?

es·tab·lish
iˈstabliSH/Submit
verb

1. set up (an organization, system, or set of rules) on a firm or permanent basis.
   “the British established a rich trade with Portugal”
   synonyms: set up, start, initiate, institute, form, found, create, inaugurate; initiate or bring about
   “the two countries established diplomatic relations”
2. achieve permanent acceptance or recognition for.

:yup:

But there has been no end SO FAR.

:yup:

Israel was made a state in 1947. Jews from all over the world, especially France, are leaving their current homes and returning to Israel. Plans for rebuilding the temple are underway.

But those are YOUR passages, and not the ones included in MY post.

:yup:

:nope:

Wrong answer. Sorry, you don’t win the million, but thanks for being on the show.

No consolation prize?

 

[7_Sorrows]

No consolation prize?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ll go with definition two. The Roman Empire did not recognise Christianity until the time of Constantine. Recognition was not achieved before 70 CE.

It does not matter what the Romans thought. What matters is that the Church was founded by Jesus before the destruction of the Temple. This is indisputable historical fact.

Agreed. So the correct answer is, “We don’t know yet.”

Well, some don’t, perhaps. Others are sure.

And there are still a great many Jews who do not live in Israel. The correct answer is “No”.

But YOUR prophecy was not part of the OP, was it?

:nope:

 

[Randy_Carson]

No consolation prize?

Jay, what do we have for our losers?

This beautiful set of matching Samsonite luggage!

 

[Lion_IRC]

ROFL

 

[Kaninchen]

TPerhaps the Jewish (national) interpretation had not been brought up earlier since there was no need to explain a biblical passage which was quite evident among Jewish thinkers as NOT referring to Jesus, that is, until the Middle Ages when Jewish philosophers took a more reactive role toward Christian theology, perhaps related to European oppression of Jews, as can be viewed in certain famous religious debates of the era, such as those of Nachmanides in Barcelona.

Curiously, Origen (180ish CE - 250ish CE), one of their Church Fathers, wrote on Isaiah 53:

I remember that once in a discussion with some whom the Jews regard as learned (i.e. Rabbis) I used these prophecies. At this the Jew said that these prophecies referred to the whole people as though of a single individual, since they were scattered in the dispersion and smitten, that as a result of the scattering of the Jews among the other nations many might become proselytes.

 

[Randy_Carson]

These are the words of Dr. Michael Brown, Messianic Jew and brilliant Christian apologist, who has debated several rabbis concerning scriptural prophecies in the Hebrew Bible linked to the Messiah. Particularly enlightening are his debates, verbal and in writing, with Rabbi Tovia Singer of “Jews for Judaism” fame. This and many other issues are discussed in their debates. Perhaps the Jewish (national) interpretation had not been brought up earlier since there was no need to explain a biblical passage which was quite evident among Jewish thinkers as NOT referring to Jesus, that is, until the Middle Ages when Jewish philosophers took a more reactive role toward Christian theology, perhaps related to European oppression of Jews, as can be viewed in certain famous religious debates of the era, such as those of Nachmanides in Barcelona.

It’s interesting that Jewish thinkers would not “think” to raise this objection to Christians earlier. Jesus was not hesitant to apply the prophecies to Himself, and His followers followed suit. I don’t think this was under the radar of the Jewish leaders…after all, it was Jesus’ quotation of the prophecy in Daniel that sealed His fate before the Sanhedrin.

1,000 years seems like an awfully long time to let such arguments go unchallenged, don’t you think?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The show has been running in one form or another for 2,000 years beginning with:

John 5
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Curiously, Origen (180ish CE - 250ish CE), one of their Church Fathers, wrote on Isaiah 53:

I remember that once in a discussion with some whom the Jews regard as learned (i.e. Rabbis) I used these prophecies. At this the Jew said that these prophecies referred to the whole people as though of a single individual, since they were scattered in the dispersion and smitten, that as a result of the scattering of the Jews among the other nations many might become proselytes.

History hasn’t exactly worked out that way though, has it? The Jews HAVE been scattered on more than one occasion, but this has not resulted in waves of nations embracing the Jewish faith.

What an amazing coincidence then, Kaninchen, that the prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures seem to parallel so closely the life of Jesus of Nazareth.

Was this purely by chance? Or was it by design? And if it was by design, was it by human design or Divine design?

• If it was chance, then ancient prophecies just accidentally appear to apply to Jesus.
• If this obvious parallel was of human design, then we must conclude that the authors of the Gospels arranges their writings to match past prophecies.
• If the parallel was of Divine design, then God arranged prophecy to match future events of the life of Christ.

Perhaps it would be instructive to spend some time examining each of these options to determine which is the best explanation of the remarkable resemblance between the prophecies of Jewish prophets and the man, Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[meltzerboy]

History hasn’t exactly worked out that way though, has it? The Jews HAVE been scattered on more than one occasion, but this has not resulted in waves of nations embracing the Jewish faith.

What an amazing coincidence then, Kaninchen, that the prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures seem to parallel so closely the life of Jesus of Nazareth.

Was this purely by chance? Or was it by design? And if it was by design, was it by human design or Divine design?

• If it was chance, then ancient prophecies just accidentally appear to apply to Jesus.
• If this obvious parallel was of human design, then we must conclude that the authors of the Gospels arranges their writings to match past prophecies.
• If the parallel was of Divine design, then God arranged prophecy to match future events of the life of Christ.

Perhaps it would be instructive to spend some time examining each of these options to determine which is the best explanation of the remarkable resemblance between the prophecies of Jewish prophets and the man, Jesus of Nazareth.

I don’t accept the premise of numerous Messianic prophecies. If you peruse the writings and oral debates of Tovia Singer and Michael Brown, you will find that every biblical prophecy purported to refer to Jesus by Brown has been textually refuted by Singer, counter-argued by Brown, counter-rebutted by Singer, and so on. These scholars rely mainly on (Hebrew) scriptural language, verse and passage context, inter-book context, literary style, and cultural meaning. On occasion, Singer ventures into the Gospels to point out certain internal discrepancies concerning the Jesus narrative as well, some of which appear more consequential than others.

With regard to your first statement, conversion to the Jewish faith, although never forced, is not to appear until the Messianic era.

 

[Kaninchen]

What an amazing coincidence then, Kaninchen, that the prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures seem to parallel so closely the life of Jesus of Nazareth.

The trouble with talking to you, Randy, is that, like a lot of sales people, you don’t listen to the person you’re trying to sell to.

Once again, if people believe the NT to be scripture/reportage they’ll think one way, if they don’t believe the NT to be scripture/reportage, they’ll think another. To you the remarkable fulfilment of prophesies is a sign of reality, to me it’s a case of “that’s because the NT is a confection.”

This is a difficult thing to say - it’s impolite amongst other things - but there’s no getting around the whole ‘don’t believe a word of it’ question and with people addicted to ‘proof texts’ it becomes necessary to say it.

 

[Kaninchen]

As a means to offload overstocks of Samsonite luggage, it probably works a treat

 

[Randy_Carson]

The trouble with talking to you, Randy, is that, like a lot of sales people, you don’t listen to the person you’re trying to sell to.

Your assumption is that all sales people are pushy and focused on forcing something on people that they don’t really want to buy. The key to successful sales, Kaninchen, is to listen CAREFULLY to what the client is saying in order to match the client’s wants and needs with the correct solution.

The trouble with talking to you, Kaninchen, is that you wear your cynicism like Iron Man wears his suit, and this prevents any real conversation with you, at all.

Once again, if people believe the NT to be scripture/reportage they’ll think one way, if they don’t believe the NT to be scripture/reportage, they’ll think another.

This is correct. Therefore, the task of the believer is to demonstrate effectively why the reportage is credible. And the case for Christianity is strong.

To you the remarkable fulfilment of prophesies is a sign of reality, to me it’s a case of “that’s because the NT is a confection.”

Ah, so the the apparent similarities between the OT prophecies and the life of Jesus are of human design then?

This is a difficult thing to say - it’s impolite amongst other things - but there’s no getting around the whole ‘don’t believe a word of it’ question and with people addicted to ‘proof texts’ it becomes necessary to say it.

If Christianity were based merely on a series of proof-texts, then it would have little going for it. However, the case for the divinity of Jesus is based on so much more than a few ancient Jewish texts.

Isn’t it curious, Kaninchen, that over the course of thousands of years, beginning with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then Moses, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and so many others, God formed a people and prepared them for the coming of the Messiah only to fall silent (apparently) without the fulfillment of the prophecies that He took such efforts to deliver to His people?

 

[Kaninchen]

Your assumption is that all sales people are pushy and focused on forcing something on people that they don’t really want to buy.

Not all sales people, Randy, just some and one in particular.

If Christianity were based merely on a series of proof-text, then it would have little going for it. But the case for the divinity of Jesus is based on so much more than a few ancient Jewish texts.

So, apart from displaying your, acknowledged, mastery of copy and pasting, why the proof text threads?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Not all sales people, Randy, just some and one in particular.

Does this make it difficult for YOU to listen carefully? IOW, while you are busy saying that I don’t listen, isn’t it possible that your personal dislike of me makes it hard if not impossible for you to hear anything I have to say?

So, apart from displaying your, acknowledged, mastery of copy and pasting, why the proof text threads?

What you call a “proof-text” thread is, in reality, merely a summary of what is a much longer and more substantive argument. In a forum such as this, it is necessary to be as brief and concise as possible.

I post summations like this from time for two reasons:

1. Non-believers need to hear the basics on the chance that they might be compelled by the short form to listen more carefully to the full message of the Gospel.
2. Believers need to learn the arguments that support their faith.

I understand that you don’t like me. You’re Jewish, European and female. I’m white, American and Christian. Why shouldn’t you feel superior in every way? You’ve been conditioned to think that way by your culture. But that doesn’t mean that I’m really as pathetic in my efforts as you dismissively suggest. ROUTINELY.

Kaninchen, I’m not trying to blow my own horn, but hardly a day goes by when I do not get a “thank you” from someone for something I have posted…either in the threads themselves or by PM. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people lurking in this forum who never post at all, and the information that I post is accessible to them all.

I don’t have all the qualities of the perfect evangelist or Christian, but I do what I can for the sake of those who will benefit from my efforts.

Maybe you will not be in that group, Kaninchen, but it would be nice to actually interact with you from time to time instead of being on the receiving end of your endless stream of sarcastic barbs and one-line posts.

Will we ever talk like real people?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Does this make it difficult for YOU to listen carefully? IOW, while you are busy saying that I don’t listen, isn’t it possible that your personal dislike of me makes it hard if not impossible for you to hear anything I have to say?

What you call a “proof-text” thread is, in reality, merely a summary of what is a much longer and more substantive argument. In a forum such as this, it is necessary to be as brief and concise as possible.

I post summations like this from time for two reasons:

1. Non-believers need to hear the basics on the chance that they might be compelled by the short form to listen more carefully to the full message of the Gospel.
2. Believers need to learn the arguments that support their faith.

I understand that you don’t like me. You’re Jewish, European and female. I’m white, American and Christian. Why shouldn’t you feel superior in every way? You’ve been conditioned to think that way by your culture. But that doesn’t mean that I’m really as pathetic in my efforts as you dismissively suggest. ROUTINELY.

Kaninchen, I’m not trying to blow my own horn, but hardly a day goes by when I do not get a “thank you” from someone for something I have posted…either in the threads themselves or by PM. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people lurking in this forum who never post at all, and the information that I post is accessible to them all. I’m not alone in this…there are many members of this forum who devote a lot of time to providing solid explanations of the Catholic faith to anyone who asks.

I don’t have all the qualities of the perfect evangelist or Christian, but I do what I can for the sake of those who will benefit from my efforts.

Maybe you will not be in that group, Kaninchen, but it would be nice to actually interact with you from time to time instead of being on the receiving end of your endless stream of sarcastic barbs and one-line posts.

Will we ever talk like real people?

 

[Picky_Picky]

Problem is that someone who believes in the historical accuracy of the NT doesn’t need to see the fulfilment of OT in order to believe, and someone who doesn’t believe in the historical accuracy of the NT won’t believe in the fulfilment anyway.

 

[Kaninchen]

Will we ever talk like real people?

It’s not a question of disliking you, Randy, it’s that, in your interactions with posters who don’t believe as you do, you seem incapable of doing other than trying to convert them. So there are the formulaic copy and pasting confrontations with Protestants, Muslims, Jews, whatever, and we’re all supposed to go along with the game and buy the -]car/-] religion with a “Oooooh, thank you so much, Randy!”

Is that what you consider as talking like real people?

 

[petra22]

Well, it obviously can’t be Jesus, since His kingdom did not have a “worldwide impact” before 70 CE. His religion didn’t reach Australia until eighteen centuries later.

As to “no end to His government”, you will have to wait a very long time to confirm that one.

And you missed out the ones about an era of world peace (Isaiah 2:4), gathering all the Jews back into Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6) and rebuilding the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), all of which we are still waiting for.

So, whoever it was, it wasn’t Jesus.

rossum

I read SOMEWHERE that Jesus won’t come with his kingdom until his people (the Jews) say, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” I guess that is what we are waiting for… Come, Lord Jesus, come. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, let Israel say.