The Million-Dollar Question

[Randy_Carson]

It’s not a question of disliking you, Randy,

Oh, good.

it’s that, in your interactions with posters who don’t believe as you do, you seem incapable of doing other than trying to convert them.

Kaninchen, it’s not that I’m incapable of trying to convert people, it’s that the purpose of this forum is to explain and defend the Catholic faith and by extension all of Christianity.

That’s why I’m here. If we knew each other in real life, I would probably never mention my faith to you at all, because in that setting, there would not be an implicit (or explicit?) expectation that an exchange of ideas and arguments would occur.

IOW, if our cubicles were next to each others’ in an office building in downtown London, you might never know that I was a Catholic because without your invitation, I would not share that information with you.

I don’t talk about this stuff with the employees who work for my company.

So there are the formulaic copy and pasting confrontations with Protestants, Muslims, Jews, whatever, and we’re all supposed to go along with the game and buy the -]car/-] religion with a “Oooooh, thank you so much, Randy!”

I don’t expect you to thank me for anything - though that might happen someday. In the short term, however, my objective is to plant a seed or a question in your mind that nags at you until you begin to seek a real answer. THAT is when the Holy Spirit can finally work. Until then, I am conscious of the fact that your intellectual defenses are impenetrable.

Is that what you consider as talking like real people?

This was better than the snarky one-liners that I have spoken to you about in the past. So, perhaps we are coming to some understanding of one another, yes.

 

[ptisme]

Does this make it difficult for YOU to listen carefully? IOW, while you are busy saying that I don’t listen, isn’t it possible that your personal dislike of me makes it hard if not impossible for you to hear anything I have to say?

What you call a “proof-text” thread is, in reality, merely a summary of what is a much longer and more substantive argument. In a forum such as this, it is necessary to be as brief and concise as possible.

I post summations like this from time for two reasons:

1. Non-believers need to hear the basics on the chance that they might be compelled by the short form to listen more carefully to the full message of the Gospel.
2. Believers need to learn the arguments that support their faith.

I understand that you don’t like me. You’re Jewish, European and female. I’m white, American and Christian. Why shouldn’t you feel superior in every way? You’ve been conditioned to think that way by your culture. But that doesn’t mean that I’m really as pathetic in my efforts as you dismissively suggest. ROUTINELY.

Kaninchen, I’m not trying to blow my own horn, but hardly a day goes by when I do not get a “thank you” from someone for something I have posted…either in the threads themselves or by PM. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people lurking in this forum who never post at all, and the information that I post is accessible to them all.

I don’t have all the qualities of the perfect evangelist or Christian, but I do what I can for the sake of those who will benefit from my efforts.

Maybe you will not be in that group, Kaninchen, but it would be nice to actually interact with you from time to time instead of being on the receiving end of your endless stream of sarcastic barbs and one-line posts.

Will we ever talk like real people?

Add me to that list. Thank you for what you do on this site.

 

[Kaninchen]

it’s not that I’m incapable of trying to convert people, it’s that the purpose of this forum is to explain and defend the Catholic faith and by extension all of Christianity.

The purpose of this forum does not include proselytising, Randy, it very clearly excludes proselytising and the proof-text game is proselytising - primitive proselytising but proselytising nevertheless.

I don’t expect you to thank me for anything - though that might happen someday. In the short term, however, my objective is to plant a seed or a question in your mind that nags at you until you begin to seek a real answer. THAT is when the Holy Spirit can finally work. Until then, I am conscious of the fact that your intellectual defenses are impenetrable.

Randy, I come from families with centuries of being pushed around in various more or less unpleasant ways for not buying the religion, I promise you that patronising won’t work either.

 

[meltzerboy]

Your assumption is that all sales people are pushy and focused on forcing something on people that they don’t really want to buy. The key to successful sales, Kaninchen, is to listen CAREFULLY to what the client is saying in order to match the client’s wants and needs with the correct solution.

The trouble with talking to you, Kaninchen, is that you wear your cynicism like Iron Man wears his suit, and this prevents any real conversation with you, at all.

This is correct. Therefore, the task of the believer is to demonstrate effectively why the reportage is credible. And the case for Christianity is strong.

Ah, so the the apparent similarities between the OT prophecies and the life of Jesus are of human design then?

If Christianity were based merely on a series of proof-texts, then it would have little going for it. However, the case for the divinity of Jesus is based on so much more than a few ancient Jewish texts.

Isn’t it curious, Kaninchen, that over the course of thousands of years, beginning with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then Moses, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and so many others, God formed a people and prepared them for the coming of the Messiah only to fall silent (apparently) without the fulfillment of the prophecies that He took such efforts to deliver to His people?

While the coming of the Messiah is one of the thirteen articles of faith in Judaism according to Maimonides, it is not the only one or even the most important.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Add me to that list. Thank you for what you do on this site.

Many people here helped me when I was getting started. It’s a team effort.

:tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

TRandy, I come from families with centuries of being pushed around in various more or less unpleasant ways for not buying the religion,

Exactly. Which is why I said that your defenses are impenetrable. Of course, that family history also prejudices you in various ways and limits your ability to think for yourself to a degree. But I understand what you’re saying.

Still, I have to wonder…there are lots of websites and discussion forums available to choose from on a wide variety of topics…from gardening to clicker training for King Charles Spaniels to the latest UFO sightings, etc.

So, why on earth would a European Jewess who clearly holds Christianity in very low regard choose to spend her free time at the largest Catholic apologetics forum in the world?

Perhaps we entertain you somehow? :juggle:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well, you’ve obviously brought your own baggage to the discussion, so you’re all set.

 

[Randy_Carson]

While the coming of the Messiah is one of the thirteen articles of faith in Judaism according to Maimonides, it is not the only one or even the most important.

But it is one article, isn’t it?.

So, where do things stand on that front now, MB?

Beginning with Abraham, God spent 2,000 putting all the pieces in place and then…nothing?

Imagine a bunch of rabbis arguing amongst themselves about the meaning of various prophecies and how they fit together. The individual bits of messianic prophecy scattered through across hundreds of years and numerous prophets look a bit like this:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...isJrPnJiD5ok8Nm9APtyKNSZamVjmVcnPvR5xfrnZsAtH

But then someone comes along and says, “Hey, I’ve got the box top…take a look at what it’s supposed to look like when it’s put together correctly…”

http://nhne-pulse.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/jesus-on-shroud.jpeg

After a moment of silence, the rabbis turn back to arguing amongst themselves.

Is that REALLY what God intended for His chosen people, MB?

Personally, I think He had better in store for you, and for all of us, than that.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Perhaps the real mistake is to never ask the question: What would Judaism look like today if the Messiah had been recognized and accepted when He appeared?

 

[meltzerboy]

But it is one article, isn’t it?.

So, where do things stand on that front now, MB?

Beginning with Abraham, God spent 2,000 putting all the pieces in place and then…nothing?

Imagine a bunch of rabbis arguing amongst themselves about the meaning of various prophecies and how they fit together. The individual bits of messianic prophecy scattered through across hundreds of years and numerous prophets look a bit like this:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...isJrPnJiD5ok8Nm9APtyKNSZamVjmVcnPvR5xfrnZsAtH

But then someone comes along and says, “Hey, I’ve got the box top…take a look at what it’s supposed to look like when it’s put together correctly…”

Sunfellow Notes | A smorgasbord of life-changing information

After a moment of silence, the rabbis turn back to arguing amongst themselves.

Is that REALLY what God intended for His chosen people, MB?

Personally, I think He had better in store for you, and for all of us, than that.

That’s my point: rabbis don’t sit around arguing about prophecies. They do argue, debate, discuss, analyze, and interpret points in the Law and how they may be applied to people’s behavior in modern society. The latter is essentially what Judaism is mainly about.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I think we need a judge as wise as Solomon to come to our aid regarding this question.

 

[Kaninchen]

Exactly. Which is why I said that your defenses are impenetrable. Of course, that family history also prejudices you in various ways and limits your ability to think for yourself to a degree. But I understand what you’re saying.

Thing is, Randy, you really don’t. The reason for this is that you don’t listen to people, you listen to your script - where people refuse to buy the -]car/-] religion it’s because they’re blinded by ignorance, misunderstanding or prejudice.

Have you ever been to Piazza San Pietro, Randy? Ever wandered around masterpieces in rococo and baroque Church architecture? Heard the Church bells of Venice? Wondered at Brunelleschi’s dome on Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore in Florence?

I have.

Randy, I’ve grown up surrounded by Christians (including Catholics), I work with Christians (including Catholics), I do charity work alongside Christians (including Catholics), the kind who go to church more than once a week, the kind who impress by what they do rather than what they say. Sometimes we even talk about religion, nobody tries to covert anybody. The thing is that religion is rather an interesting thing to talk about, what people believe, the consequences in their lives of what they believe.

Which leads me to wonder is what it is that motivates you? You’re here on Catholic Answers surrounded with people who share your beliefs and yet you behave like Catholicism’s answer to Josh McDowell the moment you find anybody to disagree with.

You see, I’d have thought that, if you were interested in talking to Jews (or Muslims, or whatever), if you wanted to convert Jews (or Muslims, or whatever), you’d at least try to have the faintest clue about what Jews believe, what Judaism’s ‘all about’. The thing is that you’re utterly clueless about Judaism, comically so - you’ve got your script and you’re sticking to it.

So, I ask myself, who are you trying to convince? Or do you need to repeatedly justify your decision to convert?

 

[Per_Crucem]

That’s my point: rabbis don’t sit around arguing about prophecies. They do argue, debate, discuss, analyze, and interpret points in the Law and how they may be applied to people’s behavior in modern society.

Or the proper way to make liver and onions, no?

 

[meltzerboy]

Or the proper way to make liver and onions, no?

LOL Yes, chopped chicken liver! Haven’t eaten that delicious concoction in ages…

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s my point: rabbis don’t sit around arguing about prophecies. They do argue, debate, discuss, analyze, and interpret points in the Law and how they may be applied to people’s behavior in modern society. The latter is essentially what Judaism is mainly about.

Has it always been this way? Or were folks more interested in prophecies 2,000 years ago before the silence began?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thing is, Randy, you really don’t. The reason for this is that you don’t listen to people, you listen to your script - where people refuse to buy the -]car/-] religion it’s because they’re blinded by ignorance, misunderstanding or prejudice.

Have you ever been to Piazza San Pietro, Randy? Ever wandered around masterpieces in rococo and baroque Church architecture? Heard the Church bells of Venice? Wondered at Brunelleschi’s dome on Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore in Florence?

I have.

That sounds like a beautiful experience. I hope to get there someday.

Have you ever asked Jesus to forgive you for all your sins and known that He did or been certain beyond all doubt that He is really present in the Eucharist?

I have. And I hope you get there some day.

Randy, I’ve grown up surrounded by Christians (including Catholics), I work with Christians (including Catholics), I do charity work alongside Christians (including Catholics), the kind who go to church more than once a week, the kind who impress by what they do rather than what they say. Sometimes we even talk about religion, nobody tries to covert anybody. The thing is that religion is rather an interesting thing to talk about, what people believe, the consequences in their lives of what they believe.

Which leads me to wonder is what it is that motivates you? You’re here on Catholic Answers surrounded with people who share your beliefs and yet you behave like Catholicism’s answer to Josh McDowell the moment you find anybody to disagree with.

You see, I’d have thought that, if you were interested in talking to Jews (or Muslims, or whatever), if you wanted to convert Jews (or Muslims, or whatever), you’d at least try to have the faintest clue about what Jews believe, what Judaism’s ‘all about’. The thing is that you’re utterly clueless about Judaism, comically so - you’ve got your script and you’re sticking to it.

So, I ask myself, who are you trying to convince? Or do you need to repeatedly justify your decision to convert?

You’re right…I admit it. I’ve spent 2-3 hours per day…sometimes more…for a decade here on CAF because I’m not sure about what I believe.

But I asked you first:

So, why on earth would a European Jewess who clearly holds Christianity in very low regard choose to spend her free time at the largest Catholic apologetics forum in the world?

What’s up with that, Kaninchen?

And for the record, I posted the OP simply to demonstrate the argument from prophecy. I did not post it with the subject line saying, “Jews: Answer this if you can!” or in response to anything you had posted. You joined my thread and took exception. So, don’t give me this line about me wanting to convert Jews without knowing anything about you.

If I was aiming at you, you’d know it. :yup:

 

[Randy_Carson]

As a Christian, Jharek, how would YOU go about making the case that Jesus fulfills the OT prophecies?

What arguments do you prefer? What analogies might you choose?

Thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

LOL Yes, chopped chicken liver! Haven’t eaten that delicious concoction in ages…

With grits, butter and salt.

The only way to go.

 

[rossum]

And for the record, I posted the OP simply to demonstrate the argument from prophecy.

Then you failed. You actually only demonstrated the argument from a selected subset of prophecy. You did not include all of the OT prophecy, but only a part of OT prophecy. You omitted the parts about gathering all the Jews back into Israel. You omitted the part about an era of worldwide peace. Basically you omitted all the parts of the OT prophecies that Jesus did not fulfil.

You have selected the prophecies you used to get the answer you wanted. That is not a very convincing argument.

rossum

 

[Randy_Carson]

Then you failed. You actually only demonstrated the argument from a selected subset of prophecy. You did not include all of the OT prophecy, but only a part of OT prophecy. You omitted the parts about gathering all the Jews back into Israel. You omitted the part about an era of worldwide peace. Basically you omitted all the parts of the OT prophecies that Jesus did not fulfil.

You have selected the prophecies you used to get the answer you wanted. That is not a very convincing argument.

rossum

Would it be a requirement that Jesus fulfill EVERY OT prophecy in order to be the Messiah?

Or would 300 or so be enough to suggest that this is not merely a coincidence?