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Picky_Picky
Guest
But what would be the point?
If one believes the NT, one knows he is the Messiah anyway.
If one doesn’t, then one doesn’t believe in the fulfilment of the prophecies.
Where do we go from there?
- Status
If one believes the NT, one knows he is the Messiah anyway.
If one doesn’t, then one doesn’t believe in the fulfilment of the prophecies.
Where do we go from there?
Z
Zachary
Guest
Some of you aren’t nearly as wise as you think. I thought I came to Catholic.com, not, one-upsmanship.yawn…
You could all benefit from some self-reflective questions. Heck, ask yourself the question you expect you “opponent” to answer and maybe get offline for a while.
You could all benefit from some self-reflective questions. Heck, ask yourself the question you expect you “opponent” to answer and maybe get offline for a while.
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rossum
Guest
Yes, it is a requirement. For example, I fulfil some, but not all, of the OT prophecies of the Messiah. So do a great many other people. I am not the Messiah yet I am in partial fulfilment of the prophecies.
Failure to fulfil all of the prophecies would render the parts of the Bible containing those non-prophecies false. Do you really want to go down that road?
No. 99% is not 100%, no matter how you look at it. It is also worth pointing out that parts of the NT were written so as to appear to fulfil the OT prophecies, for example, the issues about the location of Jesus’ birth and the virgin/young woman question about Mary.
rossum
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Zachary
Guest
This is what I meant before. This is the kind of “dialogue” that is worth the paper it’s written on.
Are we supposed to just accept your facts and hop off the Cross?
Cite. Link. Explain. Otherwise, it’s just trolling.
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rossum
Guest
s/is/isn’t I assume.
No. I quoted Bible references in my earlier post on this thread, post #18. As to fulfilling some (but not all) Messianic prophecies, I am male and born to a young woman. I am also my mother’s first child, but I am not sure if that is required for the Messiah.
Specify where you would like further clarification, please. There is a size limit to posts here.
rossum
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Bring me back some shashlik!
With this and the Jewish deli chopped liver and onions, this is the only thread on CAF that has ever made me hungry.
With this and the Jewish deli chopped liver and onions, this is the only thread on CAF that has ever made me hungry.
O
onenow1
Guest
How about calves liver smothered with onions ?
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Here, too! Minneapolis has a pretty large Russian/Ukrainian population.
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Zachary
Guest
No, I meant “it’s worth the paper it’s written on” as in → no paper…
Hardly prophetic. Prophecy implies more than my or your mundane existence. But nice try.
And I don’t want your clarification on anything. Other might; ask them. But, generally, when you wade into a debate, your word is only as good as the paper it’s written on,
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rossum
Guest
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Picky-
There are several arguments which can be made in support of the Christian faith, and one of them is the argument from prophecy. I don’t happen to think it is the strongest, and I’m not alone.
However, JESUS himself used the argument from prophecy with the Jews since they were, at one point in time, interested in messianic prophecy. Jesus found Himself in these prophecies…something that modern scholars seem unable to do.
So, I would say that if someone is uncertain about whether to believe or not, the weight of the OT prophecies would tip the scale in favor of making the intellectual decision to accept the evidence in support of Jesus as Messiah and God.
Insert prophecies here —>http://brocwhitehead.com/wp-content/themes/drochilli/images/lawscales.png
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Let’s start with the really obvious and work from there.
Please share with us how you (or any one of the “great many other people” whom you think have Messianic potential) fulfill this passage:
Isaiah 53
53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.**
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
We can move on to Ps. 22 and a few others once we have Is. covered.
Thanks in advance!**
meltzerboy
New member
Which OT prophecies state or suggest that the Messiah is supposed to be G-d Himself?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Let’s begin with the one that Jesus Himself quoted to the Sanhedrin…the one that they recognized as being a claim to divinity for which He must die:
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)
And then a few others in no particular order:
“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the LORD, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 3:1)
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet.” (Psalm 110:1)
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, `Thou art My Son, today I have begotten Thee.’” (Psalm 2:7)
Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son’s name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Matthew 26:62-66
62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Rossum. You said in post 63:
All the first Christians saw themselves as fulfilled Jews.
Consider:
As a nation, Israel underwent the Assyrian exile and as a nation and never returned.
The nation of Judah-ites (the Jews) underwent the Babylonian exile and DID return (the Benjaminites too).
The only way of reincorporating Israel and Judah and “the nations” (which the Old Testament ALSO speaks of), would be much more than a mere geographic discovery that some have postulated will occur (such as the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel allegedly being found living in some valley in Russia, or Africa, or some such theory).
**All Come Together In The Church **
We are sons in The Son.
The Pax Romana that came at approximately the time of Christ is fine, but there is much more than a period of mere political conviviality. The Jews following Christ knew that too.
JOHN 14:27-28 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ . . .
The ancient Jews would have recognized Jesus words as a “peace” that is left with them as beyond a mere period of political harmony.
They would also eventually see Jesus as the Bridegroom. St. Paul, who studied at the feet of Gamaliel, saw Jesus in this manner (Ephesians 5).
This is the type of language that a Jewish husband who underwent Kiddushin or betrothal to His Bride, would say to his wife, as He goes and prepares a place for her.
It leaves the bride with the EXPECTATION of a fulfillment yet to come.
This is nuptial language. But again, it leaves room for an even deeper fulfillment to come (Nisuin).
That’s probably WHY Jesus leading up to this used marital language there as well.
(suggesting Betrothal and later Nisuin)
JOHN 14:1-4a 1 “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.”
That’s probably WHY the Prophet St. John the Baptist, matter of factly teaches the Pharisees and the rest of the people about Jesus as the Bridegroom earlier.
JOHN 3:27-30 27 John answered, “No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him. 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice; therefore this joy of mine is now full. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.”
If Jesus is the Bridegroom, and the Church is Judaism in it’s pinnacle (and it is), then you would EXPECT even MORE to come based upon Jesus’ own words. Yet you knew there already has been a fulfillment of sorts as well.
The “peace” we have, has to do with doing away with Original Sin (which is the “privation” or “deprivation” of a grace relationship with God).
And now we have “peace” with God. Peace not such as the world gives (although in the “New Heavens and the New Earth” we will have harmony too).
In Christ we now have such a relationship–God be praised!
So its a yes/and, and not an either/or.
I hope that helps.
God bless.
Cathoholic
There are layers of fulfillment (see CCC 115-117) to these prophecies.
All the first Christians saw themselves as fulfilled Jews.
Consider:
Remember the nation of Israel as a whole, is dispersed. There are individual exceptions (such as Anna of the Tribe of Asher), but the Nation of Israel, is dispersed.
As a nation, Israel underwent the Assyrian exile and as a nation and never returned.
The nation of Judah-ites (the Jews) underwent the Babylonian exile and DID return (the Benjaminites too).
The only way of reincorporating Israel and Judah and “the nations” (which the Old Testament ALSO speaks of), would be much more than a mere geographic discovery that some have postulated will occur (such as the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel allegedly being found living in some valley in Russia, or Africa, or some such theory).
**All Come Together In The Church **
- Israel
- Judah
- The Nations (the Goyim)
We are sons in The Son.
As I said, there are layers of fulfillment. You are looking for merely a natural fulfillment. You are looking for “peace” such as the world gives.
The Pax Romana that came at approximately the time of Christ is fine, but there is much more than a period of mere political conviviality. The Jews following Christ knew that too.
JOHN 14:27-28 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ . . .
The ancient Jews would have recognized Jesus words as a “peace” that is left with them as beyond a mere period of political harmony.
They would also eventually see Jesus as the Bridegroom. St. Paul, who studied at the feet of Gamaliel, saw Jesus in this manner (Ephesians 5).
This is the type of language that a Jewish husband who underwent Kiddushin or betrothal to His Bride, would say to his wife, as He goes and prepares a place for her.
It leaves the bride with the EXPECTATION of a fulfillment yet to come.
This is nuptial language. But again, it leaves room for an even deeper fulfillment to come (Nisuin).
That’s probably WHY Jesus leading up to this used marital language there as well.
(suggesting Betrothal and later Nisuin)
JOHN 14:1-4a 1 “Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.”
That’s probably WHY the Prophet St. John the Baptist, matter of factly teaches the Pharisees and the rest of the people about Jesus as the Bridegroom earlier.
JOHN 3:27-30 27 John answered, “No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him. 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice; therefore this joy of mine is now full. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.”
If Jesus is the Bridegroom, and the Church is Judaism in it’s pinnacle (and it is), then you would EXPECT even MORE to come based upon Jesus’ own words. Yet you knew there already has been a fulfillment of sorts as well.
The “peace” we have, has to do with doing away with Original Sin (which is the “privation” or “deprivation” of a grace relationship with God).
And now we have “peace” with God. Peace not such as the world gives (although in the “New Heavens and the New Earth” we will have harmony too).
In Christ we now have such a relationship–God be praised!
So its a yes/and, and not an either/or.
I hope that helps.
God bless.
Cathoholic
P
Picky_Picky
Guest
Yes, I can see it as an argument offered to Jews. It would be interesting to know if you find it effective: it has the disadvantage, of course, that a Jew could be led to believe that the NT narrative had been framed so as to support the argument from prophecy. But there – I have been known to be wrong very occasionally.
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rossum
Guest
Indeed. If you read my post, you will see that I claimed to fulfil “some, but not all” Messianic prophecies. That is a claim to fulfil at least two of the prophecies.
Every male on the planet fulfils this prophecy, since the word “He” is used. Under a different interpretation every person on the planet, male and female, fulfils it, since in English the male pronoun can also refer to both males and females. We would have to go back to the original Hebrew to determine the better interpretation.
In either case, billions of people on earth, myself included, fulfil this line of prophecy.
I personally am nothing special to look at. Me and a great many others. Again a large number of people fulfil this part of the prophecy as well.
I am not a refugee, but there are millions of refugees in the world today who would fulfil this section of the prophecy.
I live in London where some Moslem women wear niqabs, so hiding their faces from me.
Did you not read this passage before you posted it? I only claimed to fulfil “some” of the prophecies of the Messiah, not all of them. There are three of them here already, in a passage you selected.
Jesus fulfilled some of the prophecies of the Messiah – more than I do – but even He did not fulfil all of them, as I have shown. Hence the need for the Christian doctrine of the Second Coming, where He will fulfil the rest of the prophecies. The Jews have no doctrine of a second coming of the Messiah, since they expect him to fulfil all of the prophecies in one life.
rossum
I
Ignatius
Guest
Shalom. I just wanted to thank you for the fascinating perspective and enlightening viewpoint you always bring to every subject that you participate in. I think you are a real blessing to CA forums. And Thank you for being here.
ה 'יברך אותך, ולשמור אותך;
ה 'להפוך את הפנים של ברקו על עמך, ולהיות אדיב אליך;
ה 'להרים את פניו אליך, ולתת לך שלום
K
Kaninchen
Guest
A lot of these hundreds of ‘fulfilled prophesies’ didn’t even require the NT narrative to be worked that way, in that they consist of grabbing at pieces of text and making an equivalence - in the form of:
Kings W:X And David stubbed his toe.
Matthew Y:Z Jesus stubbed his toe.
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