The Million-Dollar Question

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Kaninchen said:
A lot of these hundreds of ‘fulfilled prophesies’ didn’t even require the NT narrative to be worked that way, in that they consist of grabbing at pieces of text and making an equivalence - in the form of:

Kings W:X And David stubbed his toe.

Matthew Y:Z Jesus stubbed his toe.
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Can you give an actual example?
 
I mentioned in post 82 that
The “peace” we have, has to do with doing away with Original Sin (which is the “privation” or “deprivation” of a grace relationship with God).
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I should have also added, that we are also sons of God IN the Son.

This forgiveness of sins, and right-relationship with God by Divine Filiation (being sons and daughters of God, IN the Son), is our “peace”.

There is MORE than mere forgiveness of sins going on here.
 
rossum said:
Indeed. If you read my post, you will see that I claimed to fulfil “some, but not all” Messianic prophecies. That is a claim to fulfil at least two of the prophecies.

Every male on the planet fulfils this prophecy, since the word “He” is used. Under a different interpretation every person on the planet, male and female, fulfils it, since in English the male pronoun can also refer to both males and females. We would have to go back to the original Hebrew to determine the better interpretation.

In either case, billions of people on earth, myself included, fulfil this line of prophecy.

I personally am nothing special to look at. Me and a great many others. Again a large number of people fulfil this part of the prophecy as well.

I am not a refugee, but there are millions of refugees in the world today who would fulfil this section of the prophecy.

I live in London where some Moslem women wear niqabs, so hiding their faces from me.

Did you not read this passage before you posted it? I only claimed to fulfil “some” of the prophecies of the Messiah, not all of them. There are three of them here already, in a passage you selected.

Jesus fulfilled some of the prophecies of the Messiah – more than I do – but even He did not fulfil all of them, as I have shown. Hence the need for the Christian doctrine of the Second Coming, where He will fulfil the rest of the prophecies. The Jews have no doctrine of a second coming of the Messiah, since they expect him to fulfil all of the prophecies in one life.

rossum
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You’re purposely being extremely literal; intellectually dishonest.

As I said, prophecy does not refer to the mundane. So if every man ever on earth fulfils the prophecy (as you claim) then it is not a prophecy. Clearly it means something more and clearly refers to 1 person (and, clearly it’s not you or me.)
 
Zachary said:
You’re purposely being extremely literal; intellectually dishonest.
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No, I am merely taking the Bible as written. Should I take it differently? Can the Messiah be a woman for instance?
As I said, prophecy does not refer to the mundane.
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So? You say one thing; the Bible says another. Bethlehem is a mundane place. Does the Messiah not have to be born in Bethlehem because Bethlehem is mundane? If that is the case, then I fulfil yet another Messianic prophecy.
So if every man ever on earth fulfils the prophecy (as you claim) then it is not a prophecy.
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Every man on earth fulfils partof the prophecy not all of the prophecy. I have never claimed that every man on earth matches all of the prophecy. Please read my posts more carefully.

rossum
 
Ignatius said:
Shalom. I just wanted to thank you for the fascinating perspective and enlightening viewpoint you always bring to every subject that you participate in. I think you are a real blessing to CA forums. And Thank you for being here.

ה 'יברך אותך, ולשמור אותך;
ה 'להפוך את הפנים של ברקו על עמך, ולהיות אדיב אליך;
ה 'להרים את פניו אליך, ולתת לך שלום
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Thank you so much for your kind words.
 
meltzerboy.

Yes. I would “second” Ignatius’ (name removed by moderator)ut on being thankful you are here and the valuable insights and perspectives you bring to the table.

Keep up the great work.
 
“Prophecies. If a single man had written a book foretelling the time and manner of Jesus’ coming and Jesus had come in conformity with these prophecies, this would carry infinite weight. But there is much more here…There is a succession of men over a period of 4,000 years, coming consistently and invariably one after the other, to foretell the same coming; there is an entire people proclaiming it, existing for 4,000 years to testify in a body to the certainty they feel about it, from which they cannot be deflected by whatever threats and persecutions they may suffer. This is of a quite different order of importance.”

Blaise Pascal​
 
Randy_Carson said:
"Prophecies. If a single man had written a book foretelling the time and manner of Jesus’ coming …
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“[T]ime”? Please indicate where in the Bible the date of Jesus’ birth was prophesied to a reasonable degree of accuracy.

rossum
 
rossum said:
“[T]ime”? Please indicate where in the Bible the date of Jesus’ birth was prophesied to a reasonable degree of accuracy.

rossum
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What is reasonable to some may not be to others or you.

However, this passage is relevant:

Daniel 9

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The exact meaning of this passage is uncertain; however, it had to be fulfilled before the destruction of the Second Temple which occurred in AD 70.

So, the Messiah had to appear before that date.
 
Correct.

Willingness to die for a cause does suggest sincerity, however. The Apostles clearly believed that Jesus had risen from the dead, and they were willing to die rather than deny what they believed to be true. Therefore, the idea that they were all partaking in some sort of conspiracy based upon a lie is highly improbable.
 
If the Apostles knew that the gospel was a lie and agreed to spread the lie, that was a conspiracy.

Most folks are unwilling to die for something that they know to be untrue.

Therefore, if the Apostles were willing to die rather than deny the resurrection of Jesus, they were either the most convincing and committed liars in history or else they sincerely believed that Jesus was raised from the dead.

However, not one of the Apostles recanted and denied that rose again.
 
rossum said:
Exactly. So you would do well not to put too much trust into the meaning of such an uncertain passage.

rossum
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I don’t.

I put my trust in the sum of many passages that are far more certain. 👍
 
Randy_Carson said:
If the Apostles knew that the gospel was a lie and agreed to spread the lie, that was a conspiracy.

Most folks are unwilling to die for something that they know to be untrue.

Therefore, if the Apostles were willing to die rather than deny the resurrection of Jesus, they were either the most convincing and committed liars in history or else they sincerely believed that Jesus was raised from the dead.

However, not one of the Apostles recanted and denied that rose again.
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Add that to the fact they couldn’t contact one another as they were spread out geographically, and isolated from their “co-conspirators,” making that much easier for them to recant if it were a lie without the others knowing.
 
So, apart from the fact that we can annoy one another (which we knew already), what have we all learned so far?
 
Kaninchen said:
So, apart from the fact that we can annoy one another (which we knew already), what have we all learned so far?
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Someone must be right ! therefore continue to dig for, the truth that is the most reasonable, keeping in mind God’s ways are not our ways. How many sides are there to a story? If you say two, then you are wrong. If you had one side and I had one side, that would make two sides. However, there is a third side, the side of truth.

God Bless:)
 
onenow1 said:
Someone must be right ! therefore continue to dig for, the truth that is the most reasonable, keeping in mind God’s ways are not our ways. How many sides are there to a story? If you say two, then you are wrong. If you had one side and I had one side, that would make two sides. However, there is a third side, the side of truth.

God Bless:)
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Well, ok, but I’d already mentioned the fact that we can annoy one another. 🙂
 
I think you’ve got to have failed to have bought a Ford or Toyota before you get the luggage. Something like that.
 
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