The Million-Dollar Question

[JustaServant]

I want a 1957 Ford Fairline with a retractable top myself.

 

[Kaninchen]

No wheels, that’s the problem, probably why they’re giving them away. We’d never manage without wheels.

 

[onenow1]

Well, ok, but I’d already mentioned the fact that we can annoy one another.

I did not mean to annoy anyone, if I did I apologize ! “Oh Wait” ! is this not what our God wants, an apology for wrongs done to Him and others that He loves. Doesn’t our own pride often get in the way and aren’t we all guilty of this omission ?

God Bless

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, apart from the fact that we can annoy one another (which we knew already), what have we all learned so far?

Two things for sure.

1. Centuries of persecution endured by your families have predisposed you to reject Christianity.
2. The arguments against the Argument from Prophecy are not terribly strong.

That’s my take.

 

[meltzerboy]

Two things for sure.

1. Centuries of persecution endured by your families have predisposed you to reject Christianity.
2. The arguments against the Argument from Prophecy are not terribly strong.

That’s my take.

Are you familiar enough with the arguments against the “Argument from Prophecy” to make that claim?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Are you familiar enough with the arguments against the “Argument from Prophecy” to make that claim?

Kaninchen asked what we have learned so far. So far, the arguments presented against the Argument from Prophecy have not been that strong.

If you have better arguments, by all means, tell us. They must be very compelling because based on what you wrote previously, I gather that the Jewish people have abandoned the idea of a coming Messiah and any interest they once had in the prophecies themselves.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen asked what we have learned so far. So far, the arguments presented against the Argument from Prophecy have not been that strong.

If you have better arguments, by all means, tell us. They must be very compelling because based on what you wrote previously, I gather that the Jewish people have abandoned the idea of a coming Messiah and any interest they once had in the prophecies themselves.

The thing is, Randy, that you’re not the arbiter of anything other than your own opinion but we knew that already.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The thing is, Randy, that you’re not the arbiter of anything other than your own opinion but we knew that already.

“We knew that already”…so, that is NOT something we have learned in this thread…

Moving on.

Do you think that Jewish scholars have modified their understanding of Messianic prophecy as a direct result of Christian claims?

IOW, with Christians pointing to the literal fulfillment of specific prophecies in the person of Jesus Christ, were the Jews of subsequent centuries forced to re-think and re-define their views of those prophecies in ways that intentionally minimized their relevance and importance? And thus they could say, “Well, these prophecies aren’t all that important…we have (recently developed) completely different interpretations that could not possibly be applied to any one man.”

If true, is it the case that Jews today have a much lower regard for the prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc, than ever would have been imaginable to a Jew living at any time prior to the birth of Jesus?

I can’t help thinking that Jews living in the BC era might have had a much higher view of prophecy than the “enlightened” and secularized Jews of today…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Do you believe there are messianic prophecies in the OT which were fulfilled by Jesus?

 

[Kaninchen]

“We knew that already”…so, that is NOT something we have learned in this thread…

Moving on.

Do you think that Jewish scholars have modified their understanding of Messianic prophecy as a direct result of Christian claims?

IOW, with Christians pointing to the literal fulfillment of specific prophecies in the person of Jesus Christ, were the Jews of subsequent centuries forced to re-think and re-define their views of those prophecies in ways that intentionally minimized their relevance and importance? And thus they could say, “Well, these prophecies aren’t all that important…we have (recently developed) completely different interpretations that could not possibly be applied to any one man.”

If true, is it the case that Jews today have a much lower regard for the prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc, than ever would have been imaginable to a Jew living at any time prior to the birth of Jesus?

I can’t help thinking that Jews living in the BC era might have had a much higher view of prophecy than the “enlightened” and secularized Jews of today…

What makes talking to you such fun, Randy, is that it’s what my grandfather used to describe as talking to a ‘speak your weight machine’. You just don’t listen at all.

Just in case anybody else is confused, I’ll just point out that the problem with your questions is that they have inbuilt assumptions that you want to pretend we share when it’s obvious to anybody who actually reads what we say that we don’t share them at all.

Thus not only don’t we accept that most of these ‘prophesies’ are prophesies, never mind ‘messianic prophesies’, but we don’t believe a word of the text in which they’re, supposedly, fulfilled.

Now, anybody but you, Randy, would have come to the conclusion that this particular sales pitch is pretty useless but what you’ll do is reformulate the same pointless questions.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The OP was not aimed at Jews or anyone else in particular. Understanding OT prophecy is important for NT believers.

You can evaluate the OT prophecies and determine for yourself whether Jesus fulfills them.

What is your opinion, Jharek? Did Jesus fulfill them?

 

[Randy_Carson]

What makes talking to you such fun, Randy, is that it’s what my grandfather used to describe as talking to a ‘speak your weight machine’. You just don’t listen at all.

Just in case anybody else is confused, I’ll just point out that the problem with your questions is that they have inbuilt assumptions that you want to pretend we share when it’s obvious to anybody who actually reads what we say that we don’t share them at all.

Thus not only don’t we accept that most of these ‘prophesies’ are prophesies, never mind ‘messianic prophesies’, but we don’t believe a word of the text in which they’re, supposedly, fulfilled.

Now, anybody but you, Randy, would have come to the conclusion that this particular sales pitch is pretty useless but what you’ll do is reformulate the same pointless questions.

Isn’t it really just a choice, Kaninchen?

Haven’t you chosen to reject the evidence for Christianity not because there is no evidence or because it is not strong, but simply because you don’t want to accept it? It’s an act of your will and not your intellect, isn’t it?

If you were asked to sit in a jury and hear the evidence presented in a trial, you would, hopefully, do so objectively, and you would arrive at your final verdict based upon the facts.

Is that how you have approached your examination of the evidence that Jesus is the Messiah? Or have you simply decided that “I’m Jewish, and we don’t believe in Jesus” and let it go at that?

This is not me “selling” you a used car…that’s just your defense mechanism. This is just one person asking another person to be intellectually honest and to set aside hundreds of years of persecution and prejudice in order to examine the evidence and arguments with a truly open mind.

It’s not easy, but it is necessary.

 

[rossum]

You can evaluate the OT prophecies and determine for yourself whether Jesus fulfills them.

The Christian churches have done so, and decided that Jesus fulfilled some, but not all of the OT prophecies. For that reason they introduced the doctrine of the Second Coming, where He would fulfil the rest of the prophecies.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Haven’t you chosen to reject the evidence for Christianity not because there is no evidence or because it is not strong, but simply because you don’t want to accept it?

So, when did you acquire your special power to read people’s minds? It must be wonderful to know exactly what other people are thinking.

For myself, my special powers are not quite so spectacular. I can leap tall bullets in a single bound, and I am faster than a speeding building.

rossum

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Christian churches have done so, and decided that Jesus fulfilled some, but not all of the OT prophecies. For that reason they introduced the doctrine of the Second Coming, where He would fulfil the rest of the prophecies.

rossum

So, according to this line of reasoning, Jesus has fulfilled some OT prophecies, and there’s more to come.

Sounds okay to me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, when did you acquire your special power to read people’s minds? It must be wonderful to know exactly what other people are thinking.

For myself, my special powers are not quite so spectacular. I can leap tall bullets in a single bound, and I am faster than a speeding building.

rossum

It does not require the ability to read people’s minds. It requires to ability to examine the context and to reason.

And now a couple of questions for you.

If you met the Buddha on the road, would you kill him?

And if you did, would he rise again to new life after three days?

If not, then Buddha is not God, and following him is a waste of your time, isn’t it?

 

[Kaninchen]

Isn’t it really just a choice, Kaninchen?

Haven’t you chosen to reject the evidence for Christianity not because there is no evidence or because it is not strong, but simply because you don’t want to accept it? It’s an act of your will and not your intellect, isn’t it?

If you were asked to sit in a jury and hear the evidence presented in a trial, you would, hopefully, do so objectively, and you would arrive at your final verdict based upon the facts.

Is that how you have approached your examination of the evidence that Jesus is the Messiah? Or have you simply decided that “I’m Jewish, and we don’t believe in Jesus” and let it go at that?

This is not me “selling” you a used car…that’s just your defense mechanism. This is just one person asking another person to be intellectually honest and to set aside hundreds of years of persecution and prejudice in order to examine the evidence and arguments with a truly open mind.

It’s not easy, but it is necessary.

Stop talking to me like a child and start listening to what I say.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Stop talking to me like a child and start listening to what I say.

I have never done otherwise, Kaninchen. Claiming that I’m not listening simply allows you to dismiss my posts and avoid my questions. Here are the questions before you:

Isn’t it really just a choice, Kaninchen?

Haven’t you chosen to reject the evidence for Christianity not because there is no evidence or because it is not strong, but simply because you don’t want to accept it? It’s an act of your will and not your intellect, isn’t it?

If you were asked to sit in a jury and hear the evidence presented in a trial, you would, hopefully, do so objectively, and you would arrive at your final verdict based upon the facts.

Is that how you have approached your examination of the evidence that Jesus is the Messiah? Or have you simply decided that “I’m Jewish, and we don’t believe in Jesus” and let it go at that?

 

[Kaninchen]

I have never done otherwise, Kaninchen. Claiming that I’m not listening simply allows you to dismiss my posts and avoid my questions. Here are the questions before you:

Isn’t it really just a choice, Kaninchen?

Haven’t you chosen to reject the evidence for Christianity not because there is no evidence or because it is not strong, but simply because you don’t want to accept it? It’s an act of your will and not your intellect, isn’t it?

If you were asked to sit in a jury and hear the evidence presented in a trial, you would, hopefully, do so objectively, and you would arrive at your final verdict based upon the facts.

Is that how you have approached your examination of the evidence that Jesus is the Messiah? Or have you simply decided that “I’m Jewish, and we don’t believe in Jesus” and let it go at that?

That’s what I get from talking to a speak your weight machine.

 

[rossum]

If you met the Buddha on the road, would you kill him?

If I met someone on the road who I thought was the Buddha, then I would be in error, and I would kill that error in my mind. We often mistake things for what they are not. If that happens, then we need to eliminate our internal mistakes. The water we see in a mirage is not water; we need to recognise it as a mirage, not as water.

And if you did, would he rise again to new life after three days?

If he did then he would not be the Buddha. To live again after dying is to fail. The Buddha was not born again after he died for the last time because he attained nirvana. That is the point of Buddhism. He did it, and we can also do it.

The aim is not to live again and to avoid re-entering the long round of birth-death-birth-death etc. Eternal life is eternal suffering.

[The Buddha said:] “What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?”

“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”

“Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.”

– Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3

If not, then Buddha is not God, and following him is a waste of your time, isn’t it?

Your understanding of Buddhism is faulty. The Buddha was a man, not a god. The Buddha — a man — attained nirvana. He did something that other men can do. Had he been a god, then mere men could not do the same thing. Since he was a man, then other men can do what he did. It would be a waste of my time to try to do what only gods can do. It is not a waste of my time to try to do what a man can do.

It is almost always an error to transfer the assumptions commonly made in Abrahamic religions to Buddhism.

rossum