The Million-Dollar Question

[Picky_Picky]

Picky-

There are several arguments which can be made in support of the Christian faith, and one of them is the argument from prophecy. I don’t happen to think it is the strongest, and I’m not alone.

However, JESUS himself used the argument from prophecy with the Jews since they were, at one point in time, interested in messianic prophecy. Jesus found Himself in these prophecies…something that modern scholars seem unable to do.

So, I would say that if someone is uncertain about whether to believe or not, the weight of the OT prophecies would tip the scale in favor of making the intellectual decision to accept the evidence in support of Jesus as Messiah and God.

I suspect you are wrong. We have seen some Jewish reactions to your argument, and it isn’t going well for you. As for unbelievers, your argument leads to convincing them that they not only need to believe as true the NT, which is climb enough, but now they have also to believe as true the OT, which is a fair old mountain.

I doubt many Christians have been brought to the faith by the argument from prophesy, such as it is. My suggestion would be that you should try something else. Or somewhere else. Non believers wandering into this site are unlikely to be good conversion fodder, I’d have thought. More likely to be already rather opinionated, same as the believers.

 

[petra22]

Now, anybody but you, Randy, would have come to the conclusion that this particular sales pitch is pretty useless but what you’ll do is reformulate the same pointless questions.

It’s possible that Randy put those prophecies and references on there for people like me who know the basics but have not studied in depth. I was very thankful for the OP and I copied the info for my family who are too busy in their modern society to study. I thought it was very concise and interesting. Eye-opening!!! With references for gosh sake…

Thanks, Randy…

 

[Kaninchen]

It’s possible that Randy put those prophecies and references on there for people like me who know the basics but have not studied in depth. I was very thankful for the OP and I copied the info for my family who are too busy in their modern society to study. I thought it was very concise and interesting. Eye-opening!!! With references for gosh sake…

Thanks, Randy…

You can find most of Randy’s approach in Josh McDowell’s ‘Evidence That Demands A Verdict’.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I have never done otherwise, Kaninchen. Claiming that I’m not listening simply allows you to dismiss my posts and avoid my questions. Here are the questions before you:

Isn’t it really just a choice, Kaninchen?

Haven’t you chosen to reject the evidence for Christianity not because there is no evidence or because it is not strong, but simply because you don’t want to accept it? It’s an act of your will and not your intellect, isn’t it?

If you were asked to sit in a jury and hear the evidence presented in a trial, you would, hopefully, do so objectively, and you would arrive at your final verdict based upon the facts.

Is that how you have approached your examination of the evidence that Jesus is the Messiah? Or have you simply decided that “I’m Jewish, and we don’t believe in Jesus” and let it go at that?

Whoa there, Randy. You’re greatly overstepping yourself.

Randy, I’m a Christian: raised Evangelical Methodist, baptized as an infant, catechised at 13, had a profound conversion at 15, and though I’ve traveled and moved around, I’m living close enough to retain membership in my childhood church. I’m saying this to indicate I have a lifelong, deeply rooted, very positive relationship with Christianity and Christians. Imaginatively and aesthetically, I’m thoroughly Christianized, as well.

But, I think the reality is in fact the opposite to what you assume. About 20 years ago I listened to a series of talks by a Jewish apologist, Tovia Singer. He’s obnoxious. He’s a polemicist. He grossly overestimates his understanding of Christianity. However, when it comes to explaining his own religion, he does patiently go bit by bit through the Hebrew Scriptures and the prophecies, giving a version of interpretation within the context of Judaism. At times I think some of the interpretations could be argued against, but there is still a majority residue left in which I think he’s making good points.

My own point here is to say that I have every reason to relate postively towards Christianity, but I think intellectually the evidence for Judaism is significantly stronger than that for Christianity…if you take the time to examine it yourself, Randy. (My dad was raised a Reform Jew, became a Methodist later, and was involved in the Christian upbringing of my family, so there was no in-family ambivalence about spiritual ties to factor into my own latter perspective, either.) So, why haven’t I converted to Judaism myself?—After nearly 20 years of being willing to follow the truth wherever it seemed to lead, I just don’t see any knockout punches coming from either side. The evidence, I think, is not weighty enough either way.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If I met someone on the road who I thought was the Buddha, then I would be in error, and I would kill that error in my mind. We often mistake things for what they are not. If that happens, then we need to eliminate our internal mistakes. The water we see in a mirage is not water; we need to recognise it as a mirage, not as water.

If he did then he would not be the Buddha. To live again after dying is to fail. The Buddha was not born again after he died for the last time because he attained nirvana. That is the point of Buddhism. He did it, and we can also do it.

The aim is not to live again and to avoid re-entering the long round of birth-death-birth-death etc. Eternal life is eternal suffering.

[The Buddha said:] “What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?”

“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”

“Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.”

– Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3

Your understanding of Buddhism is faulty. The Buddha was a man, not a god. The Buddha — a man — attained nirvana. He did something that other men can do. Had he been a god, then mere men could not do the same thing. Since he was a man, then other men can do what he did. It would be a waste of my time to try to do what only gods can do. It is not a waste of my time to try to do what a man can do.

It is almost always an error to transfer the assumptions commonly made in Abrahamic religions to Buddhism.

rossum

No, my understanding of Buddhism is not faulty. I know well that the Buddha is not God and that he did not claim to be God

Jesus claimed to be God, and He backed up His claims by rising from the dead. He is worthy of your time, talent and treasure.

It is a waste of your time to do what a man can do when you could do what Jesus did instead. You, too, may be raised to new life in Christ.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Anything less is beneath the dignity for which you were created.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I suspect you are wrong. We have seen some Jewish reactions to your argument, and it isn’t going well for you.

Nor do I expect it to. 2,000 years of animosity is difficult to set aside.

As for unbelievers, your argument leads to convincing them that they not only need to believe as true the NT, which is climb enough, but now they have also to believe as true the OT, which is a fair old mountain.

I certainly hope I don’t have to convince a Jew that the Hebrew scriptures are the Word of God.

I doubt many Christians have been brought to the faith by the argument from prophesy, such as it is. My suggestion would be that you should try something else. Or somewhere else. Non believers wandering into this site are unlikely to be good conversion fodder, I’d have thought. More likely to be already rather opinionated, same as the believers.

When I was younger, I found the connection between the OT prophecies and the life of Jesus to be very compelling. But you may be right.

Still, we can think of it this way: a single argument for the divinity of Jesus Christ may be easily ignored. But like a cord that is made up of many strands, the arguments in favor of Christianity weave together to become stronger.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It’s possible that Randy put those prophecies and references on there for people like me who know the basics but have not studied in depth. I was very thankful for the OP and I copied the info for my family who are too busy in their modern society to study. I thought it was very concise and interesting. Eye-opening!!! With references for gosh sake…

Thanks, Randy…

My pleasure. May the Lord add His blessing to the reading of His Holy Word.

:tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

---

You can find most of Randy’s approach in Josh McDowell’s ‘Evidence That Demands A Verdict’.

An excellent book which I’m reading at present in response to another thread. Actually, the one I have is the updated edition, “The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict” which combines and updates two of his previous books. Thanks for the recommendation, kaninchen.

BTW, here’s a book I read a few years ago which you may enjoy…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Betrayed! is the page-turning account of a loving Jewish family caught on divergent prongs of a historic conflict. When Stan Telchin’s daughter accepts Jesus as her Messiah, she makes a touching plea for him to search out the truth for himself. Intending to prove her wrong, Telchin sets out on a vigorous and critical examination of the claims of Jesus Christ. He is astonished at what he learns and finds himself facing a wrenching and life-changing decision.

As readers travel with Telchin, they too will discover a deeper, fuller awareness of both Judaism and Christianity, as well as how God can heal wounds from the bitterest conflicts. Even more, readers will discover the inexorable power of the gospel. This new edition includes an update from the author and wisdom-filled words on Jewish identity.

 

[Kaninchen]

---

An excellent book which I’m reading at present in response to another thread. Actually, the one I have is the updated edition, “The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict” which combines and updates two of his previous books. Thanks for the recommendation, kaninchen.

People might as well get it from the original protestant evangelical scriptwriter.

BTW, here’s a book I read a few years ago which you may enjoy…

Now, you’re trying to be annoying but just being silly.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Whoa there, Randy. You’re greatly overstepping yourself.

Randy, I’m a Christian: raised Evangelical Methodist, baptized as an infant, catechised at 13, had a profound conversion at 15, and though I’ve traveled and moved around, I’m living close enough to retain membership in my childhood church. I’m saying this to indicate I have a lifelong, deeply rooted, very positive relationship with Christianity and Christians. Imaginatively and aesthetically, I’m thoroughly Christianized, as well.

But, I think the reality is in fact the opposite to what you assume. About 20 years ago I listened to a series of talks by a Jewish apologist, Tovia Singer. He’s obnoxious. He’s a polemicist. He grossly overestimates his understanding of Christianity. However, when it comes to explaining his own religion, he does patiently go bit by bit through the Hebrew Scriptures and the prophecies, giving a version of interpretation within the context of Judaism. At times I think some of the interpretations could be argued against, but there is still a majority residue left in which I think he’s making good points.

My own point here is to say that I have every reason to relate postively towards Christianity, but I think intellectually the evidence for Judaism is significantly stronger than that for Christianity…if you take the time to examine it yourself, Randy. (My dad was raised a Reform Jew, became a Methodist later, and was involved in the Christian upbringing of my family, so there was no in-family ambivalence about spiritual ties to factor into my own latter perspective, either.) So, why haven’t I converted to Judaism myself?—After nearly 20 years of being willing to follow the truth wherever it seemed to lead, I just don’t see any knockout punches coming from either side. The evidence, I think, is not weighty enough either way.

I’m perfectly comfortable with the idea that the evidence for Judaism is intellectually strong. I want it to be. Judaism is the root from which Catholicism has blossomed - God didn’t just drop Jesus down out of the clouds in a vacuum…the Jewish people were prepared to receive Him.

Not all did of course. Perhaps not even many, but history has not run its course.

Nevertheless, I am just as happy hearing about David and Goliath as I am about Paul and Barnabas.

To me, it is ONE story of redemption…not two.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jharek, do you believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled ANY prophecies contained in the Old Testament?

 

[Randy_Carson]

People might as well get it from the original protestant evangelical scriptwriter.

If you’re familiar with the book, you know it runs 700+ pages and that the bibliography alone runs 42 pages with thumbnail biographies of the authors he quotes running another 13.

It’s far from being a simplistic script.

Now, you’re trying to be annoying but just being silly.

So, you’ve not read Telchin’s book?

Like any good Jewish father, Telchin was appalled when his daughter accepted Jesus as the Messiah. And since the Internet and Catholic Answers did not yet exist, he began to do his homework to prove to her that she had made a mistake. He ended up becoming a Christian instead.

Christianity can hold up to scrutiny, Kaninchen. Even yours. :yup:

 

[Kaninchen]

If you’re familiar with the book, you know it runs 700+ pages and that the bibliography alone runs 42 pages with thumbnail biographies of the authors he quotes running another 13.

It’s far from being a simplistic script.

Oh, I’ve been discussing religion on the internet for a couple of decades and McDowell as a Christian proselytising tool would have been difficult to miss (especially early on) - hence my pointing him out as your source. Many Catholics may have missed out on the experience, of course.

So, you’ve not read Telchin’s book?

No more than you’ll rush to read books by Catholics who converted to Islam or whatever and set out to proselytise Catholics.

 

[onenow1]

Nevertheless, I am just as happy hearing about David and Goliath as I am about Paul and Barnabas.

To me, it is ONE story of redemption…not two.

:thumbsup:This is the connection more folks need to realize, the Jews are our elder brothers. The story God has written NT and OT connection.

God Bless

 

[Randy_Carson]

Oh, I’ve been discussing religion on the internet for a couple of decades and McDowell as a Christian proselytising tool would have been difficult to miss (especially early on) - hence my pointing him out as your source. Many Catholics may have missed out on the experience, of course.

Yes, we converts do have that advantage.

No more than you’ll rush to read books by Catholics who converted to Islam or whatever and set out to proselytise Catholics.

It’s always fascinating to read conversion stories…to watch the author grapple with ideas that he or she had never really looked at squarely before.

I look forward to hearing your conversion story someday.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jharek, do you believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled ANY prophecies contained in the Old Testament?

 

[petra22]

Seems like everybody is waiting on something!

“You will not see me again until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23:39).

 

[rossum]

Jesus claimed to be God, and He backed up His claims by rising from the dead. He is worthy of your time, talent and treasure.

Living again after dying is not difficult, the great majority of gods and men do so. Jesus living again after death is a measure of His failure to attain nirvana. The Buddha did not live again after his final death. That is a measure of his success. As I pointed out, it is almost always an error to think that Abrahamic assumptions hold in Buddhism.

It is a waste of your time to do what a man can do when you could do what Jesus did instead.

I am not a god. How can I, a man, do what a god can do? It is a waste of effort for me to try. I cannot walk on water, like a god can. I have to swim or take the ferry.

The Buddha attained enlightenment. Other Buddhists, and non-Buddhists, have also attained enlightenment. That is a reasonable goal for me to try for. Difficult, but attainable.

Anything less is beneath the dignity for which you were created.

I created myself by my failure to attain enlightenment in my previous life. I would remind you again of the error of assuming that Buddhism is like the Abrahamic religions. It isn’t.

rossum

 

[AbideWithMe]

I’m perfectly comfortable with the idea that the evidence for Judaism is intellectually strong. I want it to be.

Randy, I didn’t say “strong”, I said “stronger”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Living again after dying is not difficult, the great majority of gods and men do so.

Have you ever been to a funeral?

Jesus living again after death is a measure of His failure to attain nirvana.

Oh, of course. That whole rising from the dead thing after being nailed to a cross and dying of asphyxiation (along with having a lance run through his side and piercing his pericardium)…that was just evidence of how little power he really had. As God.

The Buddha did not live again after his final death. That is a measure of his success.

Oh, believe me. if you do not want to live again after dying, follow the Buddha. He got exactly what he had coming to him.

As I pointed out, it is almost always an error to think that Abrahamic assumptions hold in Buddhism.

Or that Buddhist assumptions hold true in real life.

I am not a god.

Okay. One buddhist assumption holds true in real life.

How can I, a man, do what a god can do? It is a waste of effort for me to try. I cannot walk on water, like a god can. I have to swim or take the ferry.

Normally, yes. However, Jesus is God and man, and He could do what God can do. Further, He enabled Peter to walk on water…even if only for a moment.

The Buddha attained enlightenment. Other Buddhists, and non-Buddhists, have also attained enlightenment. That is a reasonable goal for me to try for. Difficult, but attainable.

Christians attain eternal life. That is a better goal for you to try for. As the Apostle Paul wrote;

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

I created myself by my failure to attain enlightenment in my previous life.

Of course you did, rossum. Of course you did.