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AbideWithMe
Guest
We can agree on that!Okay.
Opinions vary.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
But wait, Kaninchen. Your argument here proves too much.
I’m a white, American male…IOW a crass, illiterate dolt. I’m bigoted, prejudiced, and I’ve read Josh McDowell.
It can’t get any worse, can it? :nope:But you, Kaninchen…you are a woman (which is sufficient to prove superiority all by itself), a European (which just drips urbane sophistication) and a Jewess (which means you know suffering and surviving in a tough world). :bowdown2:
And yet, you say you’re no more open-minded about reading a book about a Jew who comes to faith in Jesus through his study than I am to read about Catholics who become Muslims?
Gee, I have an excuse - my intellectual, genetic and cultural inferiority - but what reason do you have?
meltzerboy
New member
I normally don’t speak for others, but maybe Kaninchen’s reason is “if it ain’t broke, no need to fix it.” But what do I know? I’m a WAM just like you.But wait, Kaninchen. Your argument here proves too much.
I’m a white, American male…IOW a crass, illiterate dolt. I’m bigoted, prejudiced, and I’ve read Josh McDowell.
But you, Kaninchen…you are a woman (which is sufficient to prove superiority all by itself), a European (which just drips urbane sophistication) and a Jewess (which means you know suffering and surviving in a tough world). :bowdown2:
And yet, you say you’re no more open-minded about reading a book about a Jew who comes to faith in Jesus through his study than I am to read about Catholics who become Muslims?
Gee, I have an excuse - my intellectual, genetic and cultural inferiority - but what reason do you have?
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Kaninchen
Guest
While I’m sure that’s all very true, Randy, it isn’t what makes talking to you so entertaining.I’m a white, American male…IOW a crass, illiterate dolt. I’m bigoted, prejudiced, and I’ve read Josh McDowell.
A man who knows comically little about Judaism keeps telling a woman (who grew up in Christian world, went to school with Christians, works with Christians, has friends who are Christians and who has spent decades discussing religion with Christians) that she’s closed-minded and the only reason she doesn’t accept Christianity is that she’s prejudiced.
It’s that sort of thing that makes for the entertainment, Dr Pangloss.
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rossum
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You claimed earlier to have some understanding of Buddhism, yet you appear never to have heard of reincarnation.
I suggest that you go and study more on the subject before you continue this line of discussion.
So do we all. In the west it is usually called karma. Actions have consequences. There is no avoiding the consequences of your actions:
Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.
Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.
– Dhammapada 1-2
Buddhism has neither sin, not forgiveness of sin. It has actions and consequences.
Again you are making incorrect assumptions. You are in a room in a five-star luxury hotel. Everything you want is available to you, food, comfort, entertainment. But … In the next room, your family, whom you love dearly, are being tortured horribly. You can hear their screams of pain. You can see their suffering through a window. You love them, yet they are suffering unendurable agonies. Eternally. For ever and ever and ever … Their screams never cease.
Are you happy? You love them (“Love your neighbour as yourself”) and they are suffering ghastly pain. Are you happy?
The Christian heaven is eternal suffering to a Buddhist. The Buddha said “Love others as you love yourself”, and he included separation from the loved as one element of suffering. Eternal separation is eternal suffering. You are not offering me what you think you are offering; you are offering a worse goal, not a better goal.
I am glad we can agree on something.
rossum
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rossum
Guest
Then we can inevitably conclude that his house, which is the best of all possible houses, has a door, and even several windows!
rossum
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Picky_Picky
Guest
Indeed. I apologise, I was obviously insufficiently clear. I attempted to distinguish between the evident (so far) reaction of Jews (not encouraging) from the likely reaction of unbelievers (by which I meant those believing in neither Jewish nor Christian branch of the Abraham faith) which I suggested might be an unwillingness to succumb to your argument if it meant swallowing the OT along with the NT.
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Picky_Picky
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Where do you get the idea that Kaninchen is flaunting some sort of genetic/cultural superiority? (I suspect flaunting intellectual superiority could be proven). I also am an urbane sophisticated European, and I have come to think that genetic and cultural gibes at people for their Jewishness is neither urbane nor sophisticated. Wouldn’t it be better to skip that line?But wait, Kaninchen. Your argument here proves too much.
I’m a white, American male…IOW a crass, illiterate dolt. I’m bigoted, prejudiced, and I’ve read Josh McDowell.
But you, Kaninchen…you are a woman (which is sufficient to prove superiority all by itself), a European (which just drips urbane sophistication) and a Jewess (which means you know suffering and surviving in a tough world). :bowdown2:
And yet, you say you’re no more open-minded about reading a book about a Jew who comes to faith in Jesus through his study than I am to read about Catholics who become Muslims?
Gee, I have an excuse - my intellectual, genetic and cultural inferiority - but what reason do you have?
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Randy_Carson
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- A man claims to be God.
- He backs it up by rising from the dead.
- That same man says, “No comes to the Father except by me.” (cf. Jn 14:6)
- For 2,000 years, billions of people have examined the evidence for his claims and believed.
I dunno, MB…this might be worthy of some consideration. :yup:
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Randy_Carson
Guest
I didn’t make the argument. You did.
As for everything else you have written, yes. you have been inoculated against Christianity. You know just enough to prevent any future infection.
But you don’t know enough to become fully infected. And dying is necessary.
Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
I have had friends who were Jews, my boss at one point was a Jew, and I had conversations about religion with them on occasions. And unlike other people I have spoken with over the years, folks who are Jewish have a very different wall that goes up whenever the subject of Christianity comes up. Is that understandable? Of course. It something that YOU need to be aware of just as much as I do.
Nevertheless, do I say you are prejudiced and close-minded? Well, I’m reading your posts and playing the odds, and so far, you haven’t surprised me.
Perhaps, however, at some point we could stop talking about each other and actually discuss the merits of the arguments presented in my various posts?
As someone who claims to be familiar with them, you must have excellent counter-arguments, and we could have some great fun exchanging ideas.
So, waddya say, Kaninchen? Shall we dispense with the psychoanalysis and talk about more important matters? Please?
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Randy_Carson
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Jharek, do you believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled ANY prophecies contained in the Old Testament?
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Randy_Carson
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It’s a simple question. You are a Christian.
Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled any of the OT messianic prophecies?
What is so difficult about that?
Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled any of the OT messianic prophecies?
What is so difficult about that?
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Randy_Carson
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I have been thinking about this off and on for the past couple of hours, and it finally occurred to me what’s wrong with what you wrote.
Christians don’t believe that Judaism is broken, either, MB.
In general, I think Christians would say that Judaism is incomplete. It’s like God went to a lot of trouble…well, let’s put it this way:
The God of glory appeared to Father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran. 3 ‘Leave your country and your people,’ God said, ‘and go to the land I will show you.’
4 “So he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Harran. After the death of his father, God sent him to this land where you are now living. 5 He gave him no inheritance here, not even enough ground to set his foot on. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child. 6 God spoke to him in this way: ‘For four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated. 7 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,’ God said, ‘and afterward they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.’ 8 Then he gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.
9 “Because the patriarchs were jealous of Joseph, they sold him as a slave into Egypt. But God was with him 10 and rescued him from all his troubles. He gave Joseph wisdom and enabled him to gain the goodwill of Pharaoh king of Egypt. So Pharaoh made him ruler over Egypt and all his palace.
11 “Then a famine struck all Egypt and Canaan, bringing great suffering, and our ancestors could not find food. 12 When Jacob heard that there was grain in Egypt, he sent our forefathers on their first visit. 13 On their second visit, Joseph told his brothers who he was, and Pharaoh learned about Joseph’s family. 14 After this, Joseph sent for his father Jacob and his whole family, seventy-five in all. 15 Then Jacob went down to Egypt, where he and our ancestors died. 16 Their bodies were brought back to Shechem and placed in the tomb that Abraham had bought from the sons of Hamor at Shechem for a certain sum of money.
17 “As the time drew near for God to fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased. 18 Then ‘a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt.’ 19 He dealt treacherously with our people and oppressed our ancestors by forcing them to throw out their newborn babies so that they would die.
20 “At that time Moses was born, and he was no ordinary child. For three months he was cared for by his family. 21 When he was placed outside, Pharaoh’s daughter took him and brought him up as her own son. 22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.
23 “When Moses was forty years old, he decided to visit his own people, the Israelites. 24 He saw one of them being mistreated by an Egyptian, so he went to his defense and avenged him by killing the Egyptian. 25 Moses thought that his own people would realize that God was using him to rescue them, but they did not. 26 The next day Moses came upon two Israelites who were fighting. He tried to reconcile them by saying, ‘Men, you are brothers; why do you want to hurt each other?’
27 “But the man who was mistreating the other pushed Moses aside and said, ‘Who made you ruler and judge over us? 28 Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian yesterday?’ 29 When Moses heard this, he fled to Midian, where he settled as a foreigner and had two sons.
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say: 32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’ Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.
37 “This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’ 38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
(cont)
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Randy_Carson
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39 “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. 40 They told Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don’t know what has happened to him!’ 41 That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made. 42 But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets:
“‘Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?
43 You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek
and the star of your god Rephan,
the idols you made to worship.
Therefore I will send you into exile’ beyond Babylon.
44 “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen. 45 After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David, 46 who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob. 47 But it was Solomon who built a house for him.
48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:
49 “‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
50 Has not my hand made all these things?’
After all that, MB, what? The Temple was built. The Temple was destroyed. What is the point of all this? What has come of all the preparation that God did in forming His own people? The law, the prophets, the sacrifices…all that meticulous planning and preparation and miracles…and now silence for 2,000 years?
This is Judaism? This is what God has done with His chosen people?
“‘Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?
43 You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek
and the star of your god Rephan,
the idols you made to worship.
Therefore I will send you into exile’ beyond Babylon.
44 “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen. 45 After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David, 46 who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob. 47 But it was Solomon who built a house for him.
48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:
49 “‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
50 Has not my hand made all these things?’
After all that, MB, what? The Temple was built. The Temple was destroyed. What is the point of all this? What has come of all the preparation that God did in forming His own people? The law, the prophets, the sacrifices…all that meticulous planning and preparation and miracles…and now silence for 2,000 years?
This is Judaism? This is what God has done with His chosen people?
meltzerboy
New member
However, similar arguments can be (and have been) made by Mormonism, Islam, and the Baha’i faith. Why stop at Christianity? After all, the latter is incomplete. And the silence, as you call it, can also be applied to Jesus, who has not returned for about 2,000 years. I don’t agree with your argument.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
This is a deflection, and I’m surprised. You’re usually more thoughtful than this.
Is Christianity incomplete? How so? Because Jesus has not returned? The Second Coming does not complete the Cross, MB.
Mormonism? Reformed Egyptian? Give me a break. Joseph Smith was a fraud.
Islam? Muslims claim that Jesus was NOT crucified - the opposite of Christianity. So Jesus was crucified and not crucified. How can that be a completion? The law of non-contradiction prevents both from being true. Does Islam have as strong a case as Christianity? I’m interested to hear your arguments in favor of the Qu’ran.
Baha’u’llah was a manifestation of God? Now you’ve done it. Servant19 will be all over this thread before you know it. Sheesh.
But is the fact that Jesus has not yet returned your primary reason for disbelieving Christianity?
meltzerboy
New member
With one stroke of the pen (perhaps three), you have summarily dismissed Mormonism, Islam, and the Baha’i faith. To devout Mormons, Joseph Smith was NOT a fraud; to devout Muslims, Mohammad was the last and greatest prophet, NOT Jesus; to devout Baha’i believers, Baha’u’llah was INDEED a Manifestation of G-d, in a long and venerable line of Manifestations, though not necessarily the final one. Their beliefs are just as worthy of respect as yours or mine. And, as Kaninchen is wont to say, Judaism is NOT merely Christianity minus Jesus, while Christianity is NOT merely Judaism plus Jesus.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Why?
Why are their erroneous beliefs just as worthy of respect as yours or mine?
Were the beliefs of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao as worthy of respect as yours or mine?
What is so worthy about belief in something that is not true?
I’ve seen this quoted a million times. It was interesting once.
Is there something more substantive to follow? At some point, it would nice if we could move beyond sound bites and actually engage in a discussion concerning a real Christian doctrine, point of Messianic prophecy or source of historical evidence.
She doesn’t think Jesus is the Messiah, and neither do you. I get that.
Why? Present some evidence, make an argument, convince me that you have a reason for believing that Christianity is false.
Her other sound bite is “Christianity is generally harmless to those who believe in it”. In one sense, Kaninchen merely confirms the validity of Pascal’s Wager. If you believe in God, and God does not exist (or Jesus is not God), then you have lost nothing. Never mind that “I the Lord am a jealous God, and you will have no other gods before me.” Christians may have to explain how they ended up worshiping a false god when we die.
But more realistically, Kaninchen’s maxim that “Christianity is harmless” is false. Her own posts suggest that her family has been persecuted in Europe for centuries. And if Christianity is false then Jesus was a liar. Much blood has been spilled for this lie. And liars are not worthy of respect.
Tell me how we can know that Jesus or His disciples lied.
When a Baptist corners me with the question, “Are you saved?”, responding “I’m a Catholic” is not an answer. When I ask “Why do you think Jesus was NOT the Messiah”, simply saying “I’m Jewish” is not an answer. Because some Jews DO believe that Jesus was the Messiah.
So, why do YOU say he wasn’t?
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Servant19
Guest
This is excellent reasoning Randy
You must be investigating becoming a Baha’i surely??
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