The Modern Liturgical Battle Brewing Among Catholics

[gracepoole]

An awful way, frankly. Had Clement VII catered to Henry VIII’s unholy appetites, the truth of the Church would have been compromised. The point is that the Church has faced many horrible crises and Her approach to each hasn’t been to reconceive Church practices.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Church practices.

Well, there’s divine law and there’s ecclesiastical law.

Divine law says to worship on the Lord’s day. Ecclesiastical law says how we worship on the Lord’s day.

Henry Xlll wanted to break with divine law. I know annulments are granted, but let’s get real, Henry wanted to commit adultery. Even the pope knew that.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Wreaks. Interesting word choice. Do you mean that the Holy Spirit “wreaked havoc”? Or “reeks of”?
Usually when people use the term “reeks of” it means “to stink, smell strong and unpleasantly”.
You say that baby boomer Catholics adopted artificial birth control techniques in droves, before Vatican II. But “the pill” was introduced in 1968, which was after Vatican II. So, not sure what you are referring to?
Also, do you really think that catechesis improved after Vatican II? Do you have proof of that? Everything that I have seen indicates that it went off a cliff, especially immediately after Vatican II.

 

[lil_user]

for many people, it is as though the history of the Church began in 1962

For better or for worse, that’s when the aggiornamento begun, and we are still fully living within it.

 

[lil_user]

CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM

Some argue the actual reform of the Roman Rite went way over and beyond what the Council asked here.

 

[Peeps]

and a young couple with guitars was singing “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” before Mass.

May I ask if this is really true, or if it is just hyperbole? I’m not trying to be a smart aleck; I myself use hyperbole often to make the conversation more interesting (e.g., I’ll say “Mr. Peeps, come quick! There’s a tarantula in the kitchen!”

But seriously, did people sing secular songs like “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” during the Mass?

My husband and I just watched an old Ed Sullivan show (black and white), and a group of Benedictine Nuns in full habits (everything except the face and hands covered) sang Kum Ba Yah, accompanied by various stringed instruments (played by the nuns). We thought it was very touching, and remembering the era in which it was done (VietNam war, race riots, assassination of Pres. Kennedy, Cuban missile crisis, Cold War, Iron Curtain, “free love,” LSD and Timothy Leary, fascination with the occult and Anton Lavey’s Church of Satan, etc.), it seemed very appropriate. Certainly the old Latin chants didn’t seem to be making much headway in comforting people who were literally afraid that the world was coming to an end (my parents said this in whispers, and my brother and I overheard it and were afraid).

Again, not trying to be a smart aleck, but I agree that secular songs should not be done during or near the Mass. There are too many really good sacred songs!

 

[phil19034]

n the daily exercise of Our pastoral office, it sometimes happens that We hear certain opinions which disturb Us—opinions expressed by people who, though fired with a commendable zeal for religion, are lacking in sufficient prudence and judgment in their evaluation of events. They can see nothing but calamity and disaster in the present state of the world. They say over and over that this modern age of ours, in comparison with past ages, is definitely deteriorating. One would think from their attitude that history, that great teacher of life, had taught them nothing. They seem to imagine that in the days of the earlier councils everything was as it should be so far as doctrine and morality and the Church’s rightful liberty were concerned.

We feel that We must disagree with these prophets of doom, who are always forecasting worse disasters, as though the end of the world were at hand.

Because of World War I & World War II. The wars really wrecked the faith of so many people. Plus Communism took hold during the time period of the wars, and fascism just ended in Europe (except in Spain where it would last for several more decades).

Immediately after World War II, many bishops and cardinals (including some very conservative cardinals) asked Pope Pius XII to have a Council in order to respond to the Wars.

Pope Pius XII said no because it was already a confusing time in the late 1940s and he felt a Council would bring lots of confusion. He also felt that there were too many modernist in the Church and feared they would hijack any Council.

That’s why people were shocked when John XXIII called for a Council. They were shocked because Pius XII said no.

 

[phil19034]

Emeraldlady:

CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM

Some argue the actual reform of the Roman Rite went way over and beyond what the Council asked here.

I agree. I think the mass reforms of 1965 were much closer to what the Council asked for and if they would have stuck with the 1965 missal, I think very few would have had issues.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Peeps,
Haven’t you seen stuff like this? This is happening now – this was 2014.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Peeps – you don’t see stuff like this at your parish?
2015

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Peeps – what do you think of something like this? The"good part" starts around 38 seconds:

 

[JimG]

May I ask if this is really true, or if it is just hyperbole?

No, that actually happened; it is a firmly etched memory. They didn’t sing Simon & Garfunkel songs during Mass, but before Mass, sort of a prelude. There were a lot of strange things occurring for several decades, before things eventually settled down. That church eventually got its classic choir (who sang in the choir loft) back, and they sang better than ever, although the old arrangements of the Credo and Gloria didn’t return.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually the council left it up to various committees to implement what SC called for. The reforms had already begun under Pius XII. (In his 1948 encyclical Pius XII laid out the legalities of reforming the liturgy.) 1965 was not the final design.

 

[Dovekin]

The Singing Nun - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

She probably had more to do with musical changes after Vatican II than the Council did. They came at the same time, and reinforced one another, so the effect was perhaps stronger than it would have been if the Council had not happened. But I suspect the musical changes that followed the Council would have come even if the Council had not happened.

 

[lil_user]

She probably had more to do with musical changes after Vatican II than the Council did.

Come on, now. She was awesome. And we can’t take this as an example for what occurred within a liturgical context.

 

[phil19034]

Actually the council left it up to various committees to implement what SC called for. The reforms had already begun under Pius XII. (In his 1948 encyclical Pius XII laid out the legalities of reforming the liturgy.) 1965 was not the final design.

I know. It’s just my OPINION that the 1965 version better fits SC (in hindsight). However, I’m not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Peeps]

No, Loud-Living Dogma, I have never seen anything like any of your video examples in any of our Catholic parishes.

Of course, I’ve only been Catholic since 2004. But that’s 15 years of being involved in my diocese, which covers most of Northern IL, and visiting churches around the country whenever we travel.

The closest I’ve seen to any of this is a church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where many of the members were from the theater community and arts community. The music was awesome–classical and contemporary, but done so incredibly well by skilled musicians. But there was nothing illicit or inappropriate about it–it was just beautifully-done, professionally-done sacred music. Even the Mass parts (which I believe were from Mass of Creation before the changes) were inspiring.

I also attended a Mass while on vacation where, AFTER the Mass, and AFTER all the people who were staying to pray were finished and walking out the door, a gentleman sat down at the piano and started playing, and several dozen people came up and gathered around the piano (the piano was not in the back of the nave, but it was not up near the sanctuary, either). While this wonderful pianist played excellent contemporary Christian music, the group of people sang their hearts out, and raised their hands in praise, and said nothing–they just sang.

It was beautiful. And absolutely nothing illicit or disrespectful about it–it was done well after Mass, and the music was contemporary Christian music that brought glory to Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

So no, I’ve not seen any of this stuff that is on your posted videos, and I would be curious to know a percentage of Catholic Churches that have these kinds of events occur on a regular basis (at least once a month or more).

I’m thinking that perhaps in my part of the country, as we are so close to Willow Creek, that Catholic parishes don’t even try any of this over-the-top stuff, as Willow Creek will make them look childish.

I’m sorry you had to see these events in your parish icky.

 

[gracepoole]

Reading her story is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

 

[Phemie]

This is exactly what I hear from people in my area also. They had rote knowlege, but no idea how to apply it to everyday life. Go to Mass on Sundays & HDO, Fast on Friday, fulfill your “Easter duty”, and you’re good.
Most people I know over 60, who are still active Catholics, have learned more on their own as adults than they ever did as children/young adults, even if they went to Catholic school for 12 years.

I can vouch for that. I learned more about my religion in the 11 years I worked as a parish secretary and used any free time to read, read, read, than I did in the previous 45 years. I too studied the same Catechism as OraLabora. Since the teachers had learned it by rote, there was no use asking them for explanations.

 

[Emeraldlady]

It wreaks of something. But I can’t agree that the tradition/Tradition of the past centuries somehow weren’t working suddenly. In fact (please note that I’m NOT calling you arrogant), this kind of view reflects an arrogance of sorts. We naively believe that in the middle of the 20th-century humans faced unsurpassed challenges and new viewpoints that demanded a new liturgical approach from the Church. This reveals ignorance of past eras, though.

Yes, I’ve used ‘wreaks’ in the wrong sense of it’s meaning here. Lets say ‘strongly seems’ to be the work of the Holy Spirit to preserve Truth.

See I regard the position that Pope St John XXIII was just introducing ‘novelty’ with the reform of the liturgy to be the arrogant position. These men of the Church live a whole vocation of doing what is best for the faithful with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the authority of the Magisterium. My sense of Catholic history is also supplemented by a family with a long history of producing Priests, nuns and even a Bishop. It gives me confidence that if they and their fellow clergy believed in the need for reform in the Church, being on the inside and all, that the Council was meritorious and necessary.