The Modernist Horror

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Yes I meant to say I tend to think there is not a style that is religious.
Ah, Ok. šŸ™‚ Now I assume you’d agree that secular art work can be done for the honor and glory of God, but it has a very different intent and a different messages for the viewer.

Religious art is the highest form of art. As you say, it’s meant (in our tradition), to glorify Christ; It’s meant to turn our hearts and minds towards God. As Roman Catholics, I think we can boast as St. Paul says, in the Lord, for our great Catholic art. And what a good lot of it He’s given us through the hands of men.

So all of this begs the question. My point: what* is* there in the artwork of this Church to turn our heart and minds to God? Anything? I feel that it’s been stripped bare of all we hold dear. So that at best, this church must be viewed in terms of secular art.
 
Where I mention ā€˜sacrary’, replace it for ā€˜tabernacle’. Error of translation šŸ˜‰
I thought so. In that case, it’s a sign of a complete lack of respect for Christ. The Church building is ugly & distasteful. My heart aches for you. My Latin Mass parish has a small Church & not much extra money YET for enhancing is already present beauty. We just reached our goal of being entirely debt free. We owe the banks nothing, we owe the diocese nothing AND we have a school. But, as the numbers attending the Latin Mass increase…we’ll have a little extra. Sometimes it my responsibility to count the collections & I’ve noticed, per person, the TLM’rs are a little more geneous in their contributions. We’re just so HAPPY to have the Latin Mass.

Anyway, my parish…which I moved to because of the TLM…is a simple one, unchanged during the past century & a half. It was built by laborers & blue colIar workers & it was their money that provided this little ā€œneighborhoodā€ parish. It was so poor at the time of the council & small so somehow it was overlooked by the Vatican II wreckovations. We still have the original confessionals & Communion rail. I would like to share a picture with you. This was the Requim Mass celebrated last All Souls day. Can’t wait for this year’s.

bp1.blogger.com/_46HciPiKfB8/Ryy0jBPD84I/AAAAAAAAABc/GNnD-qHxYcQ/s1600-h/Requiem_St.+James.jpg

And here is a picture of my favorite Catholic Church in the whole world (except for St. Peter’s in Rome). It is huge to the point of cavernous, but the warmth of the old wood & the deep, rich colors of the handmade (by Tiffany artisans) mosaics that were donated to the Basilica keep it from swallowing the congregation. It has warmth & a welcoming atmosphere despite it’s size.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cathedral_Basilica_of_St._Louis.JPG

Also in the church basement is a mortuary chapel with a number of crypts for former leaders of the Archdiocese. Currently, Cardinals John J. Glennon, Joseph Ritter, and John J. Carberry, as well as Archbishop John L. May are buried in the Cathedral’s crypt.
 
I fail to understand how can you consider such a building a decent one, LillyM. At least you recognize that it is really ugly. The problem is not only that - this structure completely cuts off with the so-called hermeneutic of continuity, and with the sacred traditions of the Catholic Church. There is a huge and important connection between the divine and holy architecture. You’re not going to tell me you would have, in your daily prayer, the same proximity and be able to give the proper reverence to Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in this church as in a traditional church, are you?

I would say that the folks who built that ā€œChurchā€ didn’t think that Christ was worth much effort/money. I sure hope He gives back 100fold to those people, because if He gives back in accordance to what He recieved from them, they’re in BIG trouble. And you sure are correct about the hermeneutic of continuity.
 
Of course I agree with all of the above. The church is still Holy, though, because of the presence of Our Lord, even when for a period of time that Presence is gone.

As an analogy - Our Lady is holy because she bore God Incarnate within her. She didn’t cease to be holy after she gave birth to Our Lord and no longer carried Him within her, of course. But that doesn’t mean that His presence wasn’t the cause of her holiness. It just means that the effect of it continued after He was born and out of her body.

Interesting, isn’t it, that most of the places associated with Our Lord - the Holy Sepulchre, the stable of Bethlehem and so on - were turned into churches afterward. You can bet, though, that people flocked to them and worshipped there, long before this happened. It must’ve happened even when the stable was still a stable, and the sepulchre still a cave. Just goes to show how Christ’s presence, rather than handsome buildings, sanctifies a place.
Are you sure you aren’t a Calvinist or a descendant of Puritans??
 
Pollock’s work is all about paint; paint and movement. His work is territorial on many levels. It’s territorial in the way he used movement to create it. It’s territorial in the the way it he used layers to create space. Pollock’s art is great; heroic. Abstract expressionism in general is heroic. I don’t see any debate about it in the art world, when his paintings sell for millions, one would have to say he’s been very well celebrated.
So the merit of a piece of art can be judged by the price it fetches? You understand, do you not, that one of Pollock’s paintings would fetch many times more if it were claimed to be painted by, say, Elvis Presley, and many times less if it were claimed to be painted by an unknown like yours truly.
Yet surely in all three circumstances it has exactly the same ā€˜objective’ value as art, if your logic is to hold. So price means nothing - there are tragics out there who would pay as much for Madonna’s navel lint if it could be offered for sale.

And what I’m saying is IF this value (as art, since you claim its value as art is linked to its selling price) is truly objective, why, firstly, was that value not immediately apparent upon the first showings of the piece(s) - why did this ā€˜objective’ acclaim take decades to become universal (or near universal) opinion? Why weren’t Pollock or the Impressionists universally lauded - by those who of all people should have instantly seen their true ā€˜objective’ worth - from the moment they first exhibited, if there truly is no question of their objectively being great?

Secondly, if this value is objective why would such a painting not fetch exactly the same price no matter who painted it, which you must know perfectly well it wouldn’t?
 
Its interesting stuff

. But I have faith in Jesus and he said that the gates of hell will nor prevail against his Church. So one church building will not destroy it. In fact a thousand Churches in similar fashion will not stop it. My God is bigger then the Masons and any other force out to stop Him.

Interesting stuff?? I have just finished reading that document & it could have been written by Satan, Himself.
"They found out a more effective, though a far more infamous, way for attaining the dark mastery of the world. It was by the assassination not of bodies but of souls – by deliberate, systematic and persevering diffusion of immorality
 
Many people would say exactly the same about punk music - yet we have evidence here that that

does bring people back to Catholicism.

Did you read that document? You are comparing the art promoted by people who planned to corrupt the Church of Christ, who speak of mrrder of the body & the soul & of the Church as if it’s no big deal… to Punk Rock music???
 
Are you sure you aren’t a Calvinist or a descendant of Puritans??
You have missed the point. LilyM said it beautifully.

Sure the Church is ugly and the altar not to our liking but the point is Jesus is there!

God works in mysterious ways. Who knows if that Church does not inspire the youth or someone to great things.

We need to pray for them.

LilyM does not strike me as a puritan. She just *thinks!:yup: *
 
So the merit of a piece of art can be judged by the price it fetches? You understand, do you not, that one of Pollock’s paintings would fetch many times more if it were claimed to be painted by, say, Elvis Presley, and many times less if it were claimed to be painted by an unknown like yours truly.
Yet surely in all three circumstances it has exactly the same ā€˜objective’ value as art, if your logic is to hold. So price means nothing - there are tragics out there who would pay as much for Madonna’s navel lint if it could be offered for sale.
 
You have missed the point. LilyM said it beautifully.

Sure the Church is ugly and the altar not to our liking but the point is Jesus is there!

God works in mysterious ways. Who knows if that Church does not inspire the youth or someone to great things.

We need to pray for them.

LilyM does not strike me as a puritan. She just *thinks!:yup: *
No, the point is that we can do better than an ugly church. That is the point.
 
So, in the above post I’m saying that many concur with the fact that the work is of value, hence the selling price. Nowhere did I say that the work is of value because of the selling price. Do you see the difference?
Of value? Like Madonna’s navel lint is of value - since enough tragics would be prepared to pay huge sums for it? It doesn’t have any bearing on whether Pollock is actually great art, or art at all.

I fail to see any possible reason you even introduced the issue of selling price unless you thought it was somehow relevant to the greatness of Pollock’s art as art - since that’s what we’re arguing about. As it is, its selling price is irrelevant since it merely relates to its value as a commodity per se.
Because the work wasn’t understood initially.
Because Pollock did it first. Plain and simple. He was the one to make the statement. It was his idea. That’s how the contemporary art world works. People are primarily buying concepts much of the time.
But WHY wasn’t it understood initially if the criteria of what makes great art are clear and objective? Surely if they are then his value should’ve been immediately obvious.

No-one failed to understand Newton’s theory of gravity or Einstein’s theory of relativity when these were first introduced, merely because they ā€˜did it first’, because their value, by the criteria of science, was self-evident, science being an extremely objective field of endeavour.

What you are saying here seems to be that the criteria of what makes ā€˜great art’ of a particular type or genre are in fact made up after the (subjective) fact of the artist being admired and approved.

I’d be willing to bet that if a new unknown painting were brought to light, in fact painted by the great Pollock but claimed to be painted by myself, it would NOT be called great art nor fetch a price commensurate with the average price of his authenticated works. Much more importantly, it would almost certainly not be automatically hailed as ā€˜great art’ - I would bet my house on it. In fact I’d bet that it would NOT be hailed as great art, even if, coming from the sainted Pollock it in fact would be such by your ā€˜objective’ criteria.
Again, I’d like to talk about religious art. So, I ask you once more, what makes for great religious art, Lil? Any ideas?
You’re not seriously asking my opinion on the topic of religious art, that much is obvious.

Without having established that there is such a thing as objective criteria by which ANY art, religious or otherwise, can be definitively judged (how about you answer my questions first - where are these criteria written down? Who determines what they are? What qualifies them to pronounce on the topic? And where can I find them and read them?)
 
You’re not seriously asking my opinion on the topic of religious art, that much is obvious.
Well, sorry you feel that way. šŸ™‚

So, what makes for great religious art? Anyone?
 
So, what makes for great religious art? Anyone?
I think someone answered this earlier and it was an answer that I agree with. So I will repeat my understanding of their answer.

Its art through the experience of which we are brought closer to God in all of His glory. For example, this could be painting: Van ****'s The Mocking of Christ; music: Handel’s Messiah, architecture: Notre Dame in Paris; sculpture: Michelangelo’s Pieta.

Of course, nothing I have cited is contemporary, but I’m confident that there is great, contemporary religious art, I just can’t think of any at the moment.

Although some of Rothko’s work moves me to think about God and His role in our lives, as does some of Jenny Saville’s work. In the area of painting. Oh, and Vaughn Williams’ music…

Karen
 
I think someone answered this earlier and it was an answer that I agree with. So I will repeat my understanding of their answer.

Its art through the experience of which we are brought closer to God in all of His glory. For example, this could be painting: Van ****'s The Mocking of Christ; music: Handel’s Messiah, architecture: Notre Dame in Paris; sculpture: Michelangelo’s Pieta.

Of course, nothing I have cited is contemporary, but I’m confident that there is great, contemporary religious art, I just can’t think of any at the moment.

Although some of Rothko’s work moves me to think about God and His role in our lives, as does some of Jenny Saville’s work. In the area of painting. Oh, and Vaughn Williams’ music…

Karen
Thanks for your reply, Karen. I’m sorry if I missed something earlier in the thread. I think what you’re repeating or stating here is very true. Moreover, different works of religious art can reveal different aspects of the Divine, also of our Faith. I think it would be really a lot of fun to put up some reproductions of great art and discuss it with you and others. Unfortunately, I haven’t figured out how to do this here at CAF yet.😦 I can’t seem to just cut and paste here. :o When I do figure it out, perhaps I’ll start a new thread.
Pax Christi,
Ann
 
I have been reading a biography of St. John Vianney. When he inherited the little village of Ars in France to begin his priesthood, he found the little church very ugly and bare. He worked very hard at trying to make it beautiful and fitting for God. Apparently the great saint didn’t like ugly churches, either. They don’t get much holier than St. John Vianney.
 
I have been reading a biography of St. John Vianney. When he inherited the little village of Ars in France to begin his priesthood, he found the little church very ugly and bare. He worked very hard at trying to make it beautiful and fitting for God. Apparently the great saint didn’t like ugly churches, either. They don’t get much holier than St. John Vianney.
Even St. Francis of Assisi did the same thing for the church of San Damiano.
 
CradleCath;4138448:
You’re thinking of punk-lite - as opposed to the real deal, for example, originals such as the Sex Pistols - whose charming lyrics includied ā€˜I am an anti-Christ/ I am an anarchist’ and ā€˜When there’s no future/how can there be sin’.

Punk has much more edge to it than you seem to realise.
You’re speaking of music of the 70’s sung by a few punks that made no lasting difference in anyone’s life. The Freemasons happened to be men of power with wealth behind them. Don’t think I really want to discuss it anymore. šŸ™‚
 
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