The Modernist Horror

[DAPDN]

Would you believe that that part of the Mass when the Priest washes his hands and says “Lord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin” is now **left out **of the Mass in Portugal!!! :nope:

Oh, that is a common one, nowadays…

Even today, when I went to Mass in the morning, in my parish, the celebrant priest did the same thing. They may think their hands are very pure or don’t need to be washed “just” to hold the Body and Blood of Our Lord…

Now, that a Church should have no Confessional is a scandal. If these young men were to make a protest to the Archbishop I would be prepared to sign. In fact, I think they should we I am sure Catholic Answers would endorse it.

Um abaixo assinado e necessario :yup:

That would be wonderful! But I belong to a different Diocesis. WH1988 is from Oporto, I’m from Lisbon. Even so, I wouldn’t mind signing that, at all! In fact, I would enthusiasticaly put my signature on it!

 

[Cinette]

I’ve now read all the posts and LilyM I think you have made your point.

Nevertheless I sympathise with these young men. One would expect when a Church is built that one would want to glorify God with its beauty. One admires Sacred Art and Architecture.

What amazes me is that such a structure could have been passed by the “Comisao de Estetica” (I have no accents guys!) which is a body that approves esthetics of buildings. Portuguese people are usually careful about these things. You can’t just build anything. For instance, I could not go and build an Edwardian or Victorian house in Portugal - it would have to blend in with the landscape of other structures.

This structure which WH1988 showed us in the first post is not worthy to be called God’s house.

Again, that is nothing compared to the fact that the Church in Portugal has omitted part of the liturgy and that there is no confessional.

I think I read somewhere that JPII would go to confession at least once a week. Mother Teresa also!

No, this is unacceptable and I do think that one should report this to the highest authority in the Church!

 

[KenEOTE]

The Church are the people. The Body of Christ. It seems some here are putting too much emphasis on a building. Christ resides in all of us and not jsut in a building.

If the Building was so important. Why did the frist century Christians worship in the synagogue. Why did they worship in caves? The first Catholic CHurch Building wasn’t erected until after 300 AD. So are we to then assume that before 300 AD that the followers of Christ really didn’t have communion with Christ?

It’s a building. Its purpose is to be a place for people to come together and worship our Lord. Our focus should be on Chrsit not on the building.

 

[Jacafamala]

Oh, that’s a church? I thought it was a prison. Doesn’t it look like a prison, what with those small windows way up high? That “steeple?” or “bell tower?” looks like a guard’s watchtower. That’s pretty scary.

The Altar looks looks like it came out of the contemporary paintings exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. What’s backdrop that all about? Abstract Jesus?

More “good” that’s come out of VII, no doubt.

 

[Cinette]

The Church are the people. The Body of Christ. It seems some here are putting too much emphasis on a building. Christ resides in all of us and not jsut in a building.

If the Building was so important. Why did the frist century Christians worship in the synagogue. Why did they worship in caves? The first Catholic CHurch Building wasn’t erected until after 300 AD. So are we to then assume that before 300 AD that the followers of Christ really didn’t have communion with Christ?

It’s a building. Its purpose is to be a place for people to come together and worship our Lord. Our focus should be on Chrsit not on the building.

LilyM and you have made your point and it has been taken. We understand:thumbsup:

Now, try to understand the point of view of a European who wants to glorify God in a beautiful structure - don’t forget this ugly Church is not a temporary thing.

Yesterday I saw a photograph of a sculpture of a crucifix where the figure affixed to the cross was an ugly frog! What would you say to that!!??

Come on! Try to understand another point of view

 

[KenEOTE]

LilyM and you have made your point and it has been taken. We understand:thumbsup:

Now, try to understand the point of view of a European who wants to glorify God in a beautiful structure - don’t forget this ugly Church is not a temporary thing.

Yesterday I saw a photograph of a sculpture of a crucifix where the figure affixed to the cross was an ugly frog! What would you say to that!!??

Come on! Try to understand another point of view

I understand the point of view. I used to put a lot of emphasis on those kinds of things as well.

As for a Crucifix with a frog, that would be considered sacrilegious. It is a mockery of Christ. That is not the same as this Church.

I don’t see anything that was done that was an affront to Christ. It is a form of architecture. If you are uncomfortable worshiping at that Church throw a rock you will hit another church you can go to. There are thousands of them.

Try to understand a point of view that is willing to worship God no matter where I am at. That is what we are supposed to be doing anyway. I worship and praise and pray to God at my work… and it is a far uglier building then that Church.

 

[Milliardo]

KenEOTE:

The Church are the people. The Body of Christ. It seems some here are putting too much emphasis on a building. Christ resides in all of us and not jsut in a building.

If the Building was so important. Why did the frist century Christians worship in the synagogue. Why did they worship in caves? The first Catholic CHurch Building wasn’t erected until after 300 AD. So are we to then assume that before 300 AD that the followers of Christ really didn’t have communion with Christ?

It’s a building. Its purpose is to be a place for people to come together and worship our Lord. Our focus should be on Chrsit not on the building.

The Lord deserves to be worshiped in a place worthy of Him; would He let Solomon build just any type of Temple for Him? After all, one barn may as well be as good as any. But no–God commanded Solomon to build something that is worthy of Him, and with the best material used for His worship. If this should be our thinking, then perhaps we should just start making churches out of undecorated hollow blocks, and have that as a church; again, after all, one barn might as well be as good as any.

 

[KenEOTE]

The Lord deserves to be worshiped in a place worthy of Him; would He let Solomon build just any type of Temple for Him? After all, one barn may as well be as good as any. But no–God commanded Solomon to build something that is worthy of Him, and with the best material used for His worship. If this should be our thinking, then perhaps we should just start making churches out of undecorated hollow blocks, and have that as a church; again, after all, one barn might as well be as good as any.

True but that was the OT. And it has been pointed out to me many times on this forum by people that we are under a new covenant.

God no longer resides in a building but in us. We are his temple. We should then become more concerend about what we do and say and what kind of things we put into our minds. God derserves people who are willing to worship Him in all circumstances and praise him for he is worthy of praise. God is more concerned with the Heart of a man then a building.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

 

[Cinette]

True but that was the OT. And it has been pointed out to me many times on this forum by people that we are under a new covenant.

God no longer resides in a building but in us. We are his temple. We should then become more concerend about what we do and say and what kind of things we put into our minds. God derserves people who are willing to worship Him in all circumstances and praise him for he is worthy of praise. God is more concerned with the Heart of a man then a building.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

:doh2: :doh2: :doh2: :doh2:

 

[Jacafamala]

True but that was the OT. And it has been pointed out to me many times on this forum by people that we are under a new covenant.

God no longer resides in a building but in us. We are his temple. We should then become more concerend about what we do and say and what kind of things we put into our minds. God derserves people who are willing to worship Him in all circumstances and praise him for he is worthy of praise. God is more concerned with the Heart of a man then a building.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

You are over spiritualizing. We’re Catholic here. The physical does indeed matter.

That architect’s taste “is all in his mouth”, as my grandmother would say.

 

[KenEOTE]

You are over spiritualizing. We’re Catholic here. The physical does indeed matter.

That architect’s taste “is all in his mouth”, as my grandmother would say.

Well then go complain to that diocese. They obviously approved of the building. Are you going to say that it just sprung up and that no one had control?

How am I over spiritualizing? By quoting the Bible?

 

[KenEOTE]

:doh2: :doh2: :doh2: :doh2:

All I am saying is we need to be more concerend with what we do and say and what we put into our lives (books we read, movies we watch, magazines we buy, internet sites we visit) then a church building.

The plans got approved by someone. The parishoners can always go to another parish, if they do not like it. Some there may indeed like the Church Building. If it is not to your liking don’t go.

 

[Jacafamala]

Well then go complain to that diocese. They obviously approved of the building. Are you going to say that it just sprung up and that no one had control?

A fat lot of good it would do complaining to the Bishop.

How am I over spiritualizing? By quoting the Bible?

Ken, you’re not using those quotes in context. You can’t just go slinging those verses around that way; it isn’t responsible.

I feel that maybe you’re over spiritualizing by saying that the physical is of no importance.

 

[KenEOTE]

A fat lot of good it would do complaining to the Bishop.

Ken, you’re not using those quotes in context. You can’t just go slinging those verses around that way; it isn’t responsible.

I feel that maybe you’re over spiritualizing by saying that the physical is of no importance.

No that is not what I said. I said what we do with our own physical self is more important to God then a building is. We as people (PHYSICAL) are his temples. He is in our hearts. How often do we think about that when we decided to go watch a Movie that is full of fowl language and horrific scenes? Is that really where God would want his Temple?

People do not realize that when we claim to be followers of Christ people watch us. Do they see a difference or do they see us do all the same things they do? Yes we will slip up and fail, but there is a difference between failing and willfully going in the wrong direction.

Its a building. Some people don’t like the look of it. My suggestion is then don’t go to it. If it is that distracting and affront to the person, they can go to another Church Building.

 

[Cinette]

All I am saying is we need to be more concerend with what we do and say and what we put into our lives (books we read, movies we watch, magazines we buy, internet sites we visit) then a church building.

The plans got approved by someone. The parishoners can always go to another parish, if they do not like it. Some there may indeed like the Church Building. If it is not to your liking don’t go.

All you can do is keep harping on the building :bigyikes:

You have still to object to the fact that there is no confessional and the liturgy has been tampered with! In my view THAT is HUGE! Forget about that ugly building.

 

[KenEOTE]

A fat lot of good it would do complaining to the Bishop.

Ken, you’re not using those quotes in context. You can’t just go slinging those verses around that way; it isn’t responsible.

I feel that maybe you’re over spiritualizing by saying that the physical is of no importance.

Here you go in context:

Corinthians 3
On Divisions in the Church
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

**16Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple. **

18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”** 21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

1 Corinthians 6
Lawsuits Among Believers
1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!
7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality
12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”** 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.****

 

[KenEOTE]

All you can do is keep harping on the building :bigyikes:

You have still to object to the fact that there is no confessional and the liturgy has been tampered with! In my view THAT is HUGE! Forget about that ugly building.

I wasn’t harping on the building over 90 percent of the post were only about the fact that it was ugly. I was saying stop harping on the look of the place.

 

[Cinette]

I was harping on the building because over 90 percent of the post were only about the fact that it was ugly.

 

[Jacafamala]

Its a building. Some people don’t like the look of it. My suggestion is then don’t go to it. If it is that distracting and affront to the person, they can go to another Church Building.

Well, we can agree on that. I could never go there.

 

[Jacafamala]

Here you go in context:

Corinthians 3
On Divisions in the Church
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

**16Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple. **

18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”** 21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

1 Corinthians 6
Lawsuits Among Believers
1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!
7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality
12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”** 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.****

Ok, what significance does 1 Cor 3 hold regarding the topic at hand?