The morality of a law suite

[wcknight]

Without ever wishing to be involved in one, we are in the middle of a law suite. We are suing for damages, and the people we are suing have no intention of making good with what they did to us.

Their strategy is to out wait and to out spend us. They have deep pockets and we don’t. It is so frustrating to know you are right and telling the truth but constantly see the opposing lawyers lie and spew out half truths merely to drag out the proceedings and make things more expensive (we even got threats that say this is exactly what they are/will be doing).

We want simple justice and are willing to negotiable what we think is a fair and equitable settlement. Of course every case has two sides and what they think is fair is very far from what we propose. In the meantime, they twist and manipulate the truth like a fairy tale and IF I did not know better, even I could be convinced that we are the bad guys.

What do you do when you firmly believe you are in the right but know the other guy is just trying to use the expense of litigation to get their way ?

Prior to this I used to think our courts and laws were fair and equitable, now I know that it strongly favors the rich and the powerful. I keep praying that God opens the hearts of our adversarys and shows them that honesty and integrity are far more important than a few dollars.

It makes me wonder, how will God deal with folks who make lying and cheating a way of life. I doubt the opposition is full of atheists, so how do they reconcile themselves before the Almighty ??? Do they see us as the ones who are trying to cheat them ? Surely the truth and their need to twist it must tell them that they are subverting justice.

Shakespeare said to kill all lawyers, I guess he must have went through the court system just like we are.

My guess is that the truth must not mean very much to them. IF they can save a few dollars then that must be sufficient to lie or cheat.

It has been a torturous ordeal and it is far from over. Every day our expenses keep rising and there is no end in sight. I feel like there is no justice in America for the little guy, and I hope no one else has to go through what we have to go through now.

IF and when this is finally over, I hope to write about my experiences. It is an extremely disturbing series of frustrating and baffling events. This is not a story about life threatening events but it very well could have been. For now it is merely about how the super rich can make things very harrowing for the average guy.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

wcknight:

We want simple justice and are willing to negotiable what we think is a fair and equitable settlement.
…

What do you do when you firmly believe you are in the right but know the other guy is just trying to use the expense of litigation to get their way ?

You have to decide what it costs to make a point to people who are not likely to get it. If you win, you will not have likely converted their hearts. If you lose or withdraw your efforts, you will not have likely converted their hearts.

You sound like you’ve been through quite a satori here; I can assure you that anybody who has respect for the “system” being fair or even effective has not been “served” by the system. I am finding out just in the past few years just how low people and institutions can go at exploiting those who can ill afford it.

On one plane, I offer Bruce Williams-ish advice that what matters is to cut your losses at this point. I might add that you figure out what is most likely to be in your benefit in terms of hassle or money. Making a point, being fair, etc. is an ideal you will never (of course – never say never) instill by upholding a righteous position against an evil adversary.

If you are victimized, that’s a good thing spiritually. If you continue to fight and lose more money or time when you could have cut and run, that’s fine too. I don’t know if we’re talking about settlements here in sizes you can afford. I’m just saying that at some point everyone who has been in poverty has had to figure out how much “fairness” is worth fighting for, rather than accept that fairness is only in your own heart.

As Shakespeare supposedly wrote, “He is not an honest man by nature, but is so sometimes by chance.”

Prior to this I used to think our courts and laws were fair and equitable, now I know that it strongly favors the rich and the powerful. I keep praying that God opens the hearts of our adversarys and shows them that honesty and integrity are far more important than a few dollars.

After going from a six-digit job to unemployment for five years and living on handouts basically I can assure you it is not just the courts and laws, but all institutions. There becomes a “hell with tomorrow” attitude that in a way is good in that they’re living in the present but short term decisions always win here even to detriment of tomorrow. When one has little hope, tomorrow is always gloomy so you might as well go get a beer and have a few relaxing moments.

It makes me wonder, how will God deal with folks who make lying and cheating a way of life. I doubt the opposition is full of atheists, so how do they reconcile themselves before the Almighty ??? Do they see us as the ones who are trying to cheat them ? Surely the truth and their need to twist it must tell them that they are subverting justice.

Once I was comforted by some scripture I think was in Old Testament but I can’t find now, “Do not envy a wicked man or walk in his ways.” For a while I starting thinking I really was the crazy one like they said, and the rest of the world was right about being lying phonys.

My guess is that the truth must not mean very much to them. IF they can save a few dollars then that must be sufficient to lie or cheat.

I think it is even deeper than that. I think in their reality they don’t even recognize themselves the way they clearly appear to you.

A friend told me once corporate life was like a tree of monkeys; some climbing up and looking up, others in the top looking down. The ones looking down see a bunch of smiling faces on those climbing up. What do the ones at the bottom see?

Also I heard life is like a dogsled team – if you’re not the lead dog, the scenery never changes.

Of course, Jesus rings in on this in John 15:18-19 “If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.”

It has been a torturous ordeal and it is far from over. Every day our expenses keep rising and there is no end in sight. I feel like there is no justice in America for the little guy, and I hope no one else has to go through what we have to go through now.

IF and when this is finally over, I hope to write about my experiences. It is an extremely disturbing series of frustrating and baffling events. This is not a story about life threatening events but it very well could have been. For now it is merely about how the super rich can make things very harrowing for the average guy.

You are welcome to PM me or send me email if you are interested. I may be able to help you weigh some of the details if you’d rather not publish and I will keep it confidential. I’ve been through a number of fights, some of them going on right now… :whacky:

Alan

 

[Tristan_daCunha]

AlanFromWichita:

Once I was comforted by some scripture I think was in Old Testament but I can’t find now, “Do not envy a wicked man or walk in his ways.”

Could it be:
Do not envy wicked men, do not desire their company;
For their hearts plot violence, and their lips speak of foul play.
By wisdom is a house built, by understanding is it made firm;
And by knowledge are its rooms filled with every precious and pleasing possession.
A wise man is more powerful than a strong man, and a man of knowledge than a man of might;
For it is by wise guidance that you wage your war, and the victory is due to a wealth of counselors.(Proverbs 24:1-6)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Tristan daCunha:

Could it be:
Do not envy wicked men, do not desire their company;
For their hearts plot violence, and their lips speak of foul play.
By wisdom is a house built, by understanding is it made firm;
And by knowledge are its rooms filled with every precious and pleasing possession.
A wise man is more powerful than a strong man, and a man of knowledge than a man of might;
For it is by wise guidance that you wage your war, and the victory is due to a wealth of counselors.(Proverbs 24:1-6)

Yes!

Thank you!

Alan

 

[manualman]

Are you not able to find a lawyer that will agree to absorb all litigation costs in return for a fixed (read hefty) percentage of any settement or judgement?

 

[wcknight]

That probably would have been the wiser way to go. We did not. At this point we are way down the road, and just to recover our legal fees may take some doing.

As I was listening to the opposition, it occurred to me how much free reign lawyers are given to twist the truth and tell outright lies. The order of events was totally misrepresented. He knew when things happened but he deliberately reordered them to make us look bad.

It occurred to me that when we take the stand, we are sworn to tell the truth and if caught in a lie we are subject to heavy fines and even prison time. Why are lawyers not held to an equally high standard ???

IF it can be later proved that a lawyer ,for either side in any type of hearing or trial, deliberately and maliciously lied. Should they not be subject to fines, reprimands, and prison as well.

I can see that a defense attorney may have to leave out certain details to protect his client, if he knows his client is guilty, BUT he must/should still stick to what he knows is true. It is one thing to leave out details that may be harmful to your case but it another to say something completely untrue.

No one on any side should be allowed to twist the truth and commit outright perjury. IF witneesses are held to this standard, then lawyers should be equally accountable as well.

For an attorney, an official of the court, who is supposed to be a representative of our much vaulted justice system, to be permitted to stand up and spew off a series of half truths, distortions and outright lies is an outrage to our society.

Why has this been allowed to exist in our court system ??? A system that has to rely of twisting the truth can not possibly be a good one.

I am appalled that attorneys are allowed to get away with anything they may dream up. IF the evidence proved that the lawyers deliberately lied about evidence or events they too should be held up the standards that witnesses are. Jurys and judges hear these tales and are misled. The victims of these distorions has to number in the thousands.

Misconduct by attorneys is much more subversive than lying by witnesses. These people are supposed to be well educated, law biding citizens, witnesses may be of questionable character. Laywers shoud all be about reproach. The fact that lying is a major part of the legal system makes our legal system a farce.

 

[wcknight]

It occurred to me that all lawyers in any case also should be sworn in just as all the witnesses are.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

wcknight:

It occurred to me that all lawyers in any case also should be sworn in just as all the witnesses are.

I have a feeling that if you listen very closely, lawyers construct almost everything they say so that there are other valid meanings. Either that or they can “twist” anything to use alternate meanings.

For example, if you ask someone “are you currently involved in dancing with that woman” and the person has no benefit to being cooperative, it is perfectly valid to answer “no” with the caveat that as we are here in this deposition they are not dancing right here at this exact moment. When one thinks it through, it is only an assumption that we meant last night or tomorrow night’s plans count in “currently.”

In other words, I’ve come to believe that they misrepresent, but they always leave a trail of breadcrumbs they can get back to an excuse to keep themselves out of trouble.

In one of the trials on whose jury I ended up serving, there was one time the plaintiff attorney actually revealed a fact that he clearly wasn’t supposed to. All the other attorneys in the room jumped up and objected (there were five defense attorneys) and the judge threatened the plaintiff and instructed us not to pay any attention to the comment. It was calculated. He did that particular trick exactly one time during a 3 1/2 week trial, and got away with it. He seem to think it was important to mention that the defense company had been under some sort of conservatorship – but it had nothing to do with the case and was specifically ruled non-evidence before the trial.

Oh yeah, that’s another thing. In the civil and criminal trials I’ve been on, it is five minutes AFTER the verdict that you find out what REALLY happened. You can listen to a witness get grilled about something for two hours, then after the trials the judge or attorneys will tell you flat out in five seconds what that whole thing was about. It’s all about getting the result, and there is enough at stake to turn them all into academy-award actors. There is a great deal that happens before the trial to even decide what can be introduced as evidence and what can’t, and exactly what discussion topics are taboo. That’s where most of the objections in the one really long civil trial I was on seemed to be based.

Alan

 

[wcknight]

Yes, that seems to be their out. They can string along several statements or events they may all individually be true but when taken together the inference is false.

IF the lawyer had done this, I would say he merely misled the judge into making the wrong conclusion, BUT he deliberately said one event took place much earlier than it did and another took place much later than it did, and then drew the false conclusion to make us look bad.

The individual events did take place but not in the order or time frame that he claimed they did. When the actual physical evidence of these events come to light anyone can see that the lawyer in fact lied about the timing. Hopefully this comes to light during the actual trial.

I just find it unconscionable that someone who is supposed to be a representative official of our legal system can get up and blatantly lie about the details of a case and get away without being reprimanded or sanctioned. IF a witness had been caught in such a lie, they would be subject to charges of perjury, usually a very serious offense subject to jail time…

 

[wcknight]

The other thing is, I suspect this lawyer may even be Catholic. IF you do this in court, are you not guilty of breaking the 8th commandment ?

I know you are supposed to represent your clients as best you can but does that justify lying on their behalf ?