The morality of allowing Syrian refugees into the USA

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You seem not to understand the meaning of “a priori.” I didn’t “rule it out,” I gave Spencer’s arguments for why the “open letter” shouldn’t be taken to mean or imply what it has been taken to mean and imply. You have the opportunity to prove that Spencer is incorrect in his analysis and you have declined to do so. Don’t put your inability to do so back on me as if I won’t accept any evidence at all. The fact that you have no evidence should not be depicted as my failure to accept it. Let’s play it straight here.
I asked you if you would accept as evidence the words of other Muslim scholars who say that Islam is not what you said. But then you said you would accept that evidence only if it explained some certain passage in the Koran or something like that. I don’t want to get into an argument about the nature of Islam from first principles. I am not Muslim, nor am I a Muslim scholar. To me the only relevant features of Islam are what others of that faith think it is. I do not have to present their reasons. It is enough to present the fact that they believe this. So I ask you again, will you accept as evidence of what Islam is as it relates to us, the words of other Muslim scholars, regardless of whether or not they do so from first principles?
 
To me the only relevant features of Islam are what others of that faith think it is. I do not have to present their reasons. It is enough to present the fact that they believe this.
This seems very odd to me. Are you, then, claiming that Christianity or “the only relevant features” of Christianity are what those of that faith think it is?

Christianity is nothing but what those who profess Christianity claim it to be? There is no truth to Christianity besides what believers profess? Man-made religion, then?

I suppose this is where we part company and where you part company with St. Paul who said the Church is the Body of Christ animated by the Holy Spirit.

If Islam is to be true to its own genesis, then it must hold to a belief that Allah is one and Muhammad is his Prophet. If Islam is nothing but what “others of that faith think it is,” then ISIS proponents are just as legitimately Muslim as those “others” to whom you wish to appeal and allow a final say about what Islam is.

Yet, your position is self-defeating because “those others” have no more legitimacy regarding their views about what Islam is than the radicalized jihadis do, if Islam is merely what those who proclaim themselves to be Muslim have the only say about what Islam really is. They ALL – radicals and moderates, alike – are people “of that faith” who ALL think in their own way about what it is. You have just disqualified any objective measure by which to distinguish those who think it is one thing from those who think it another because you allow no objective means for determining which of “those” groups is correct – they ALL are.

That was the point, by the way, of going back to the genesis of Islam – the words and deeds of Muhammad – to determine in some objective way who is correct.

It appears the scientist in you has just abdicated the methods of science and objectivity for the sake of maintaining political correctness.

I fully expect that at this point you will beg off from discussing the point any further. I wouldn’t blame you. Your position is untenable and, clearly, not defensible.
 
This seems very odd to me. Are you, then, claiming that Christianity or “the only relevant features” of Christianity are what those of that faith think it is? Christianity is nothing but what those who profess Christianity claim it to be?
I am claiming that if Muslims were worried about Christians doing terrorist things in their country, they need not consult the Bible or any early Church founding document. All they would have to do is assess what most Christians believe today, and that would tell them all they need to know about whether Christians might be a terrorist threat in their country. In this thread the only thing we need to discuss about Islam is whether Muslim refugees are a terrorist threat to live among us. If there is a disconnect between what most Muslims profess and what their founding documents or leaders say, we need not resolve that disconnect. Either they are failing to live up to the “true” image of Islam, or our image of “true” Islam is wrong. Which of these two is the case does not matter and I don’t care to discuss it.
It appears the scientist in you has just abdicated the methods of science and objectivity for the sake of maintaining political correctness.
I might have a separate curiosity over these matters and might even be interested in pursuing them with you, but not in this thread, which is about the morality of allowing Syrian refugees into the USA. Unless you can show this burning question of the “true” nature of Islam must be settled here and now, I suggest you start a new thread on the matter.
 
This seems very odd to me. Are you, then, claiming that Christianity or “the only relevant features” of Christianity are what those of that faith think it is?

Christianity is nothing but what those who profess Christianity claim it to be? There is no truth to Christianity besides what believers profess? Man-made religion, then?
Christianity? No, as a Christian, I don’t believe it’s man-made. (But I do shake my head at the atheists who pull the worst episodes out of the Bible on the premise that present-day Christians must all want to live out those things, which is what I suspect many Christians are doing when they quote the Quran or incidents from the life of Muhammad.)

However, as I am a Christian, I do believe that Islam is a man-made religion. And as such, I don’t really care whether its adherents are living up to some ideal or original version of their faith. If you tell me one group of Muslims is closer to their roots and wants to kill nonbelievers, while another group has drifted from those roots and is cool with coexistence, then I am going to throw all my support behind the second group. I have no attachment to the survival of “real” Islam, if there is any such thing, but I do have an attachment to people continuing to live together in peace. So it shouldn’t matter to us if moderate Muslims are in some sense “bad Muslims,” because they’re the ones we can productively interact with and we don’t actually believe in any version of their religion.

Usagi
 
The steadfast refusal of one man, Charles Martel, to be the “Good Samaritan” of Europe in 732 saved Christianity for posterity.
Charles Martel was dealing with an actual, literal army of conquest, not with refugees fleeing such an army. Being the Good Samaritan was not among his options. It is among ours.

Usagi
 
Christianity? No, as a Christian, I don’t believe it’s man-made. (But I do shake my head at the atheists who pull the worst episodes out of the Bible on the premise that present-day Christians must all want to live out those things, which is what I suspect many Christians are doing when they quote the Quran or incidents from the life of Muhammad.)

However, as I am a Christian, I do believe that Islam is a man-made religion. And as such, I don’t really care whether its adherents are living up to some ideal or original version of their faith. If you tell me one group of Muslims is closer to their roots and wants to kill nonbelievers, while another group has drifted from those roots and is cool with coexistence, then I am going to throw all my support behind the second group. I have no attachment to the survival of “real” Islam, if there is any such thing, but I do have an attachment to people continuing to live together in peace. So it shouldn’t matter to us if moderate Muslims are in some sense “bad Muslims,” because they’re the ones we can productively interact with and we don’t actually believe in any version of their religion.

Usagi
I suppose the prudent thing when discussing whether someone is truly interested in “living together in peace,” is whether what they mean by “peace” is the same as what you mean by the word and whether the terms or conditions for the “peace” that they subscribe to are the same as the terms and conditions that you do.

Not discussing those terms and conditions as if Muslims are not really subscribers to their own world view would seem to lead in the direction of… “well you didn’t ask what we had in mind when we agreed on living together in peace,” AND they would be correct – both logically and politically.

What questions are we NOT asking? And why not?

Perhaps, to our peril.
 
I suppose the prudent thing when discussing whether someone is truly interested in “living together in peace,” is whether what they mean by “peace” is the same as what you mean by the word and whether the terms or conditions for the “peace” that they subscribe to are the same as the terms and conditions that you do.

Not discussing those terms and conditions as if Muslims are not really subscribers to their own world view would seem to lead in the direction of… “well you didn’t ask what we had in mind when we agreed on living together in peace,” AND they would be correct – both logically and politically.

What questions are we NOT asking? And why not?

Perhaps, to our peril.
If you have specific questions in mind that you think should be explicitly asked of the world’s 1.6 billion demonstrably mostly peaceful Muslims, come out and say what they are instead of hinting. Then describe how you would go about asking these questions and who specifically you would ask.
 
Really? Those are the questions you would ask Muslim refugees to determine if they should be let into the country? It seems you are more interested in determining the Muslim equivalent to the Nicene Creed, but the point at which you suggested the “questions that should be asked” was to determine if Muslims are willing to live in peace in a multi-cultural society that is not all Muslim. Let me suggest that the questions you outlined do little to advance that determination. Let me further suggest that the question of willingness to live in peace is more reliably answered by the actions of the vast majority of peaceful Muslims who are already living in all over the West. And if someone was “unpeaceful”, they could certainly fake the answers to your loyalty questions. So either way, your approach of “asking the questions that need to be asked” is an ineffective and counterproductive way to determine if Muslim refugees should be let into the country.
 
Really? Those are the questions you would ask Muslim refugees to determine if they should be let into the country? It seems you are more interested in determining the Muslim equivalent to the Nicene Creed, but the point at which you suggested the “questions that should be asked” was to determine if Muslims are willing to live in peace in a multi-cultural society that is not all Muslim. Let me suggest that the questions you outlined do little to advance that determination. Let me further suggest that the question of willingness to live in peace is more reliably answered by the actions of the vast majority of peaceful Muslims who are already living in all over the West. And if someone was “unpeaceful”, they could certainly fake the answers to your loyalty questions. So either way, your approach of “asking the questions that need to be asked” is an ineffective and counterproductive way to determine if Muslim refugees should be let into the country.
You don’t seem to understand the difference between direct and indirect, do you?

If someone is determined by deception to, well… deceive, then you can ask all the direct questions you want and it won’t get you anywhere. Sometimes, more can be gleaned from what someone is unwilling to say than from answers which are readily forthcoming.

Just as someone who plans to be – in your words – “unpeaceful,” could “certainly fake the answers to … loyalty questions,” someone who was planning to act “unpeacefully” when the time is ripe could very well fake living peacefully “all over the West” until such a time as the numbers permitted less peaceful activity.

The question isn’t so much what will happen when a small number of “peaceful Muslims” live in the west, the question is what will happen when larger numbers do. The Middle East seems to be in indicator which should not simply be ignored in your probability calculus.

Now you have made the point that we are here speaking about Muslims and not Islam. Perhaps that is correct, but the question remains regarding what is it that makes Muslims view themselves as “Muslim” in the first place. Why are Muslims adherents to Islam and not to some other belief system? And what are the essentials of that belief system that draw those claiming to be Muslim to it?

It may seem that I am being unnecessarily provocative and prying into what is none of my business, but, at the same time, this discussion needs to be had in order to build trust. We can go on and on ignoring the necessity of doing so to the extent that it needs to occur to resolve the fundamental issue, but that will continue to keep the fire smoldering until it erupts.

Either Muslims in whole or in part are fundamentally “peaceful” or they – in whole or in part – are not. That question still needs to be dealt with and not avoided in the end. This may, in fact, need to be dealt with first within the Muslim community before it can be properly moved outside that community, but it is clear that the issue MUST be properly resolved. We cannot continue to go on as if no problem exists or that it is just an imagined one.
 
I never thought I’d say this, but I’m starting to like Trump as a presidential candidate. I do not believe in keeping Muslims who mean us no harm out of the US, but until the background checks can be greatly improved, I’m all for a temporary ban. I’m also for the proposed travel ban.

If Muslims want to be seen as peaceful, they need to come out and condemn what the radicals are doing. The Muslim leaders need to come out and say, “This is not Islam.” When they don’t, what are we to assume?
 
I never thought I’d say this, but I’m starting to like Trump as a presidential candidate. I do not believe in keeping Muslims who mean us no harm out of the US, but until the background checks can be greatly improved, I’m all for a temporary ban. I’m also for the proposed travel ban.

If Muslims want to be seen as peaceful, they need to come out and condemn what the radicals are doing. The Muslim leaders need to come out and say, “This is not Islam.” When they don’t, what are we to assume?
When they come out in droves and do condemn radicalism after every incident and no one seems to pay attention what are we supposed to assume?
 
When they come out in droves and do condemn radicalism after every incident and no one seems to pay attention what are we supposed to assume?
None of the Islamic leaders have “come out in droves” and condemned the violent action of radicals. My assumption is that they do not condemn it for whatever reason. If they did, they should say so.

If you believe they have “come out in droves,” perhaps you would be kind enough to provide links to droves of Islamic leaders condemning radical Islam’s violent actions and correct me.
 
They have been condemning terrorism:

Here,
and Here,
and Here,
and Here,
and Here. How much more condemnation do you need?
A lot. But thank you for the links. Maybe the fault lies with the TV news outlets who play up sensationalism rather than reporting that at least some moderate Muslim leaders have spoken out against terrorism. I don’t know.
 
I accept that some Islamic leaders have condemned the actions of terrorists. However, I do not think they have “come out in droves.” They need to do that. They need to say explicitly that what the terrorists do is not Islam, and the terrorists are in no way martyrs, but cowards and killers.
 
This appears to be strong evidence that there exists in the world persons of the Moslem faith who hold positions out of step with the societies in which they live, and who are prepared to act badly, to the point of violence, to prosecute those positions.

Hands up those who did not know this?
Wouldn’t the next logical step be to work out why this is the case, to what extent Islam itself fosters this being “out of step” and work out some effective measures in terms of what needs, legitimately, to be done to prepare, if possible, to properly deal with the problem?

It does no one any good to pretend these kinds of “out of step” situations will not happen in the future, when clearly they consistently have happened in the past and are happening now.
 
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