The morality of File Sharing

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There was:

nytimes.com/2010/05/13/technology/13lime.html

Your computer allows you to buy a song or download a movie legally, for money. But why pay anything if you can go to a stealing site and get it for nothing?

Now that people can scan books, and magazines and rip songs and movies, why should any business set up on the internet? Why should you put in the time and money to set up Netflix type streaming when you know the second the movie comes out on DVD it’ll be all over the internet?

Here’s some legal information:

fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/justice-department-charges-leaders-of-megaupload-with-widespread-online-copyright-infringement

justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/

Peace,
Ed
Thanks Ed, that was really helpful. Looks like I do indeed need to uninstall Frostwire, and stop going to 1channel.ch and other sites of the sort!

This also means I should delete any music I have illegally obtained in the past as well, correct?
 
What I’m getting at is… if I buy a CD, I can rip the CD onto my computer. I know that’s legal. Then what I could do is email the mp3 of a song to my friend. Is that legal? I have never heard anything saying it isn’t. If that’s legal, than technically Limewire, Frostwire, and other programs simply create a client for people to distribute their files en masse… I honestly don’t know if this is morally or legally unacceptable.
The corporations that benefit form IP tried to make it illegal for you to create archive copies. But the courts ruled it is legal to create a backup copy. One question is can you transfer ownership of IP. If you can then you could email an mp3 to a friend but I’d imagine you’d have to destroy all copies you possess. File sharing services of protected material are illegal. Napster was found illegal. Various other file sharing services have been shut down.
Copyright law exists. We live in the present. If you don’t have the right to copy then you’re stealing.
Those who support IP laws want to equate violation of the law with stealing. But that does not mean it is. If people can own ideas then violating copyright is stealing. If they can’t then it is not.
This is just more justification for stealing. Opinions don’t matter. Here’s what the FBI thinks:

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/cyber/ipr/ipr

A little bit of stealing is still stealing and the ‘don’t make a profit off it’ is totally false. It’s just not true:

fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/cyber/ipr/anti-piracy
If opinions dont matter then the content of these links do not matter. These are merely the opinions of the FBI. I wouldn’t take the opinion of HHS as fact. These links tell you what the FBI does. That is useful because regardless of the law you would probably be wise to stay out of the FBIs sights.

Here is an opinion about false copyright claims which are seemingly common and most interestingly not enforced by the same government that is interested, and spends public funds, in going after the common man.

False copyright claims are more common than you think.
 
Edwest2: Thanks for getting that information out here, and for emphasizing that it is wrong to break the law unless the law itself is sinful. However, I do have one question for you, I’m curious about why you claim that it is always wrong to fileshare, even in countries where it is perfectly legal to do so? I know in Canada, for example, they put an extra tax on cd’s and such to make up for revenue lost because of filesharing and then make filesharing legal. Since, as it has been pointed out before, the laws around copyrights are not against the natural law in and of themselves I’m curious about why you think it would be wrong if there are no laws against it?
Legal does not always mean moral, so it’s still a sin.

Peace,
Ed
 
Hey Everyone,

So my question is about the morality of file sharing. (Downloading books, music, games, movies etc…)

So I believe this question has several tiers. Is it moral to download?
  1. Files that are out of print so you are unable to buy them even if you wanted to.
  2. Files that are old and you would like to have but would not pay for.
  3. New files that you could buy.
I, like most people, believe that the laborer has a right to the fruits of their labor so I would say that downloading new materials (such as bootleg movies) would be immoral, but things that are out of print would be permissable since you could not buy them anyways, as for the second catagory I am not sure.

What do yall think?

God Bless,
Red
Actually the answer to your question is easier than you think.

At first, we might get bogged down with the justice of the whole regulations around these media. Then some might end up with the conclusion that the copyright laws for an example seem unjust and therefore against once conscience. From here, they might conclude that its ok to violate them.

BUT, all of the above argument is made irrelevant by the simple fact that by using the above media, you implicitly/explicitly agree to the TERMS OF USE.

So in such a case, if you don’t like the terms in the END USER AGREEMENT, your only choice is to find a different producer that does have different terms. Otherwise, by violating the agreement, you violate the conditions you agree to with the producer. Therefore it would be equivalent to lying and be immoral.

In short, the morality of the matter here does not depend on the just/unjust nature of copyrights. It solely depends on what you agreed to with the producer (implicitly or explicitly) in purchasing or using a product. These conditions have to be honored. To violate these conditions is immoral. If one doesn’t like these conditions, they have to find another producer who is willing to sell a product under the conditions you like.
 
Thanks Ed, that was really helpful. Looks like I do indeed need to uninstall Frostwire, and stop going to 1channel.ch and other sites of the sort!

This also means I should delete any music I have illegally obtained in the past as well, correct?
Well, yes, because it’s the right thing to do.

Peace,
Ed
 
Edwest2: Thanks for getting that information out here, and for emphasizing that it is wrong to break the law unless the law itself is sinful. However, I do have one question for you, I’m curious about why you claim that it is always wrong to fileshare, even in countries where it is perfectly legal to do so? I know in Canada, for example, they put an extra tax on cd’s and such to make up for revenue lost because of filesharing and then make filesharing legal. Since, as it has been pointed out before, the laws around copyrights are not against the natural law in and of themselves I’m curious about why you think it would be wrong if there are no laws against it?
I’m unfamiliar with the law in Canada. Are you saying that if I price a CD at $3.99 and another artist prices his at $1.99, the same percentage is taken out (say, 10%)? Why set up file sharing in the first place if you can buy from one legal source? I don’t need a hundred file sharing sites - if it’s legal - just one.

I can go to amazon.com and buy everything that is currently being stolen. Books, movies, TV programs, music, magazines. What does a file sharing site get out of copying the books my company produces and offering them for free? Why, in Canada, are there any file sharing sites?

In the US, a company like Netflix lets you buy a movie and stream it to your computer for money. In the US, a file stealing site allows you to get the same movie for nothing. Do you see my point? If I’m in Canada, I can get my buddy in the US to pick up something for free and send it to me without anyone knowing.

Peace,
Ed
 
I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. As I’ve heard it, filesharing etc is not illegal because the government realized there was no way to stop it and instead put an extra tax on blank CDsto make up for it. I could be misinformed about this, but that is what I was told by a Canadian that I knew. I can’t answer any of your questions as to why beyond that because I really don’t know any more.

However, my question was actually meant to be a little broader than that… I don’t know enough, nor have I bought enough about copyrights, filesharing, ownership of ideas etc to know what kind of, and to what extent, dues must be paid to artists etc in order for justice to be fulfilled. The worker must obviously have recompense for his labour, but with the case if sharing files it is less clear to what extent the justice of natural law demands that dues be paid. I was curious what your thinking behind saying that file sharing is always wrong, even when it isn’t illegal because I am interested in hearing somemore discussion aboutthis issue. Do you think filesharing is against the natural law in and of itself? Because that is what it sounds like to me when you say that it is wrong to do it even when it is legal. If so, why? I’ve never really heard an argument for that and am rather curious.
 
The matter is clouded by the problem that many flies are available free. I’ve seen some latest releases that were free to download. So how do you know whether or not a file is free to download or not? More often than not the copyright information says it is not legal to upload the file, but says nothing about downloading it. In other words, the crime is committed by the person uploading the file, not by the person subsequently downloading it. In many cases you don’t know if it’s an illegal download until after you’ve downloaded it, by which time it’s too late; you’ve done the crime, you do the time. I feel there can be too many innocent victims of illegal downloading. It’s all too hazy.
 
The idea of intellectual property is actually historically a new idea. I believe it sprang up in the 19th century. I do not consider it stealing, but I do believe that we are called to respect legitimate authority including civil authority. As such, I look to both the laws of the country and to whether the individual holding the copyright actually cares about or wants to utilize their copyrights.

For instance, the copyright to “Happy Birthday to You” belongs to Patty Hill. Now, she died in 1946, but the song is still protected by copyright laws. That is why if you go to most restaurants that regularly have their staff surprise you to sing to you on your birthday, they don’t sing “Happy Birthday to you.” If they do, they probably don’t do that sort of thing frequently enough to recognize that they’re violating copyright laws. In the United States, the song will not belong to the public domain until 2030. So just remember that if you haven’t purchased sheet music for “Happy Birthday to you” and you’re singing it to your child on their birthday, you’re violating copyright. As such, if you’re going obsess over obeying every copyright law in the country, you better drop that family tradition.

In regards to music, copyright laws only help musical artists who are well known. Most musical artists who are starting out encourage their small fanbase to spread their music in the hopes that the fanbase will build to levels that a record company will take notice. When they are signed onto a label, the artist signs over their copyrights to the record company in exchange for promotional and recording services. The contract includes an agreement as to what percentage of the profit the artist will get. The same is the case with books.

That said, copyrights do expire. When they expire, such intellectual property is said to be within the public domain. Anyone can do their own printing and binding to make a profit off of the work. As such, when you see that $3 bargain for Pride and Prejudice at Barnes and Noble, its not really a bargain. If you find a free online PDF file of it, it is perfectly legal to print it out or to convert it to kindle format and keep it for free. That’s also how people get away with publishing books like “Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.” No one has to buy the rights from the Jane Austin estate to do it. That’s also why no one has to worry about buying the rights to perform works of Shakespeare where they do for more modern plays where the playwright or screenwriter is still alive or where their estate still holds the rights. But when New Line Cinema decided they wanted to produce “The Lord of the Rings” they had to buy the rights from the Tolkien Estate.

As such, in discerning this I first ask myself “Is this public domain?” If its not, I then ask myself if the holder of the copyrights actually wants to utilize their rights. I also consider if the owner of the copyright is abusing copyright law to take advantage of people. Granted, you can usually get around that legally. Its just really annoying when publishing houses will take a piece of music that is in the public domain, change two words in a popular song and then suddenly own the rights to “their” version. It ends up costing churches tons of money purchasing these expensive hymnals that truthfully contain material that is just a modified version of a piece of work in the public domain. But people don’t understand copyright law very well, and it just seems an agreement in mainstream publishes not to let it on that traditional hymns should not be costing as much as they are charging.
 
The matter is clouded by the problem that many flies are available free. I’ve seen some latest releases that were free to download. So how do you know whether or not a file is free to download or not? More often than not the copyright information says it is not legal to upload the file, but says nothing about downloading it. In other words, the crime is committed by the person uploading the file, not by the person subsequently downloading it. In many cases you don’t know if it’s an illegal download until after you’ve downloaded it, by which time it’s too late; you’ve done the crime, you do the time. I feel there can be too many innocent victims of illegal downloading. It’s all too hazy.
It’s not hazy at all. This is an international problem with billions of dollars being lost globally.

fightonlinetheft.com/content/about-intellectual-property-theft

intellirights.com/cms2/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=345&Itemid=71

bja.gov/ProgramDetails.aspx?Program_ID=64

Peace,
Ed
 
The idea of intellectual property is actually historically a new idea. I believe it sprang up in the 19th century. I do not consider it stealing, but I do believe that we are called to respect legitimate authority including civil authority. As such, I look to both the laws of the country and to whether the individual holding the copyright actually cares about or wants to utilize their copyrights.
The problem with this thinking is that calling on the historical newness of a concept does not mean you get to ignore it. Even if copyright is only ~100 years old, that doesn’t mean you get to ignore it. Does the Church say we can ignore the Marian dogma of the Assumption because it was only declared in 1950? No. As we grow as a society, more advance concepts come to fruition, and copyright is one of those. What people seem to ignore is that copyright has the word right in it for a reason. It protects something that society has recognized as being owed to an individual inherently. Just because this concept gets utilized for monetary gain by corporations more often than not doesn’t negate the right, and even then, those corporations are still run by people who have that right. The filesharing issue is as bad as it is because the MPAA and the RIAA have become faceless, people-less entities in many people’s minds, when it couldn’t be further from the truth.
For instance, the copyright to “Happy Birthday to You” belongs to Patty Hill. Now, she died in 1946, but the song is still protected by copyright laws. That is why if you go to most restaurants that regularly have their staff surprise you to sing to you on your birthday, they don’t sing “Happy Birthday to you.” If they do, they probably don’t do that sort of thing frequently enough to recognize that they’re violating copyright laws. In the United States, the song will not belong to the public domain until 2030. So just remember that if you haven’t purchased sheet music for “Happy Birthday to you” and you’re singing it to your child on their birthday, you’re violating copyright. As such, if you’re going obsess over obeying every copyright law in the country, you better drop that family tradition.
This is just blatantly false. There’s a big difference between a restaurant, who would utilize a song such as Happy Birthday in the process of making money, and a family singing a song in a private situation. You need to research and understand the concept of Fair Use before you go making examples that would lead people to believe they are breaking laws that don’t exist.
In regards to music, copyright laws only help musical artists who are well known. Most musical artists who are starting out encourage their small fanbase to spread their music in the hopes that the fanbase will build to levels that a record company will take notice. When they are signed onto a label, the artist signs over their copyrights to the record company in exchange for promotional and recording services. The contract includes an agreement as to what percentage of the profit the artist will get. The same is the case with books.

[excised for length]

As such, in discerning this I first ask myself “Is this public domain?” If its not, I then ask myself if the holder of the copyrights actually wants to utilize their rights. I also consider if the owner of the copyright is abusing copyright law to take advantage of people.
Again, you are making statements that can lead people astray. When a person or group sells their Intellectual Property (book, song, movie, etc.) to a company, that company can do whatever it wants with it as dictated by the terms of sale. The company has purchased a right, and all the inherent aspects of it. The creator’s desires about the copyright after they’ve sold it have absolutely no bearing on what the company does with it, how long they keep it, or whether you consider such uses as abuses. This is not arbitrary or relative. When you take a copy of some Intellectual Property that has a current owner, you are violating that right. You can sing Happy Birthday until you’re blue in the face, both legally and morally, in the privacy of your home or car with private company. Download a copy of Patty Hill performing it or sing it as an employee of a restaurant without paying Patty (or her estate, as it were) what they’re owed, and you’ve broken the law and violated a right.

The thing about copyright is that, even if all the legal restrictions surrounding it were to drop away tomorrow, it would still immoral for a person of conscience (especially a Christian conscience) to take something they haven’t paid for when the owner still requests such. The medium of the item makes no difference at all. We are called to follow a higher law than the broken laws of man, and that clearly applies to situations like file-sharing. If you feel that a company abuses the rights inherent in their purchase of an IP, or as gaining IP at an unfair advantage, do no support them with your money and advocate others do the same; that does not mean you have spontaneously gained the right to their IP and can take it by any means you deem appropriate.

Also, while I quote twoangels specifically to address some points, I’m speaking mainly to everyone who is trying to justify filesharing copyrighted works.
 
I do not consider it stealing, but I do believe that we are called to respect legitimate authority including civil authority.
How would you justify that file sharing isnt actually a form of theft?
 
BUT, all of the above argument is made irrelevant by the simple fact that by using the above media, you implicitly/explicitly agree to the TERMS OF USE.

So in such a case, if you don’t like the terms in the END USER AGREEMENT, your only choice is to find a different producer that does have different terms. Otherwise, by violating the agreement, you violate the conditions you agree to with the producer. Therefore it would be equivalent to lying and be immoral.
Unfortunately terms are not always reliable. Terms can contain invalid clauses. What I mean is they can contain clauses found to be unenforceable by courts. They can also have illegal statements that exclude Fair Use which is a legal doctrine allowing you to use copyrighted material.
How would you justify that file sharing isnt actually a form of theft?
File sharing is a form of theft only if people can own ideas. So I would ask what justification there is to own an idea. Even our laws today do not treat ideas the same as other property. The ownership of an idea is transferred to the public after a certain time. If we said that your land is transferred to the public after 70 years would you not consider that a theft? I would. So even if copyright is just like other property and sharing is stealing, then the eventual transfer of the property to the public without compensation is problematic for the concept of treating ideas like any other property because that is theft. If file sharers are thieves then so is the public who steals ideas after a certain amount of time.
 
Interesting thoughts on here. Question -

Several years ago, I downloaded some song files by Ladysmith Black Mambazo, Jay Chou, A-Mei, Leon Lai, and Detsl. Since I had never heard any of these artists before, I had no idea what they sounded like. Here’s what happened next -

Ladysmith Black Mambazo - I bought most of their CD’s.
Jay Chou - Bought 3 or 4 CD’s.
A-Mei - Bought 3 or 4 CD’s.
Detsl - Tried to buy a CD online but it was never delivered. 🤷
Leon Lai - vile stuff. Bought no CD’s.

I still have all the files I downloaded. I basically sampled each of the above artists and bought their stuff if I liked it. Technically Mr. Leon Lai (above) didn’t benefit from me downloading his music, but if he had been a better artist I would have bought some of his CD’s.

So did I steal? It’s not as if I would have ever heard any of these artists on the radio, and at the end of the day I did pay for much more music than I downloaded.
 
I don’t get why it should be stealing. The file is available online and I’m not pretending it’s mine and selling it and trying to make money out of it, I’m just watching it. Does it mean that if a friend buys a movie, that I should not watch it without first paying something for it? How am I stealing by watching something that is on the internet and was there when I got there? If I go somewhere and find them showing a movie, or providing books, I read what I find there without feeling guilty. I didn’t put it there and I don’t take it with me to go and sell it. How is that different with the movies on you-tube? I know people should make money off their labor- But are these entertainment people really going broke or making losses for this, or are they just not making the large amounts of money that they would have loved to make otherwise?

For the Catholics who insist that it’s objectively stealing- please explain the principle. Is it wrong for a person to buy many hard-copy books and films then avail them for free in a non-profit library in their home area? Is it a sin merely because what we are watching is shared on the internet rather than as a hard-copy?
 
How would you justify that file sharing isnt actually a form of theft?
Because it does not deprive an individual of anything that is actual. If you consider theft as the deprivation of possible income then you have to prove that the potentiality was going to become an actuality. I think I think that copyright infringement is immoral, but I also think that some of intellectual property laws are immoral, the same goes for the way they are enforced. The whole intellectual property usage is also becoming a big joke, just look at what is happening now with patents and patent aggregators.
 
How would you justify that file sharing isnt actually a form of theft?
Theft deprives someone of what they have. I take their coat from them and they no longer have a coat. I take their money from them and they no longer have their money. File sharing is making a copy. They retain their coat while I use technology to create a copy of the coat for myself.
 
The problem with this thinking is that calling on the historical newness of a concept does not mean you get to ignore it.
I never said I ignore copyright laws!
Even if copyright is only ~100 years old, that doesn’t mean you get to ignore it. Does the Church say we can ignore the Marian dogma of the Assumption because it was only declared in 1950? No. As we grow as a society, more advance concepts come to fruition, and copyright is one of those. What people seem to ignore is that copyright has the word right in it for a reason. It protects something that society has recognized as being owed to an individual inherently.
People stick on the word “right” to just about everything they want to legally protect. That does not mean such rights are a part of the objective moral reality. Copyright is not a part of Catholic doctrine. It is not an advancement in human understanding of what God deams as our rights. It is a human invention for the sake of a capitolistic society and nothing more.

As such, as I said, it is a matter of paying paying to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s. If the government were to get rid of copyright laws, we would be free to share our files as much as we wanted without worrying about sinning.
 
Theft deprives someone of what they have. I take their coat from them and they no longer have a coat. I take their money from them and they no longer have their money. File sharing is making a copy. They retain their coat while I use technology to create a copy of the coat for myself.
I think that theft also applies to something that is still potential and also sure that it will become actual. The problem is that we do not know when that happens with file sharing of copyrighted material. To me it is as bad as the government forbidding the sale of specific crops to the public without even purchasing them from the farmers.
 
Theft deprives someone of what they have. I take their coat from them and they no longer have a coat. I take their money from them and they no longer have their money. File sharing is making a copy. They retain their coat while I use technology to create a copy of the coat for myself.
But if you make the illegal copy you deprived the producers/artists of the financial cost theyre entitled to in exchange for making that copy.
 
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