The morality of File Sharing

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Do you mean books, music, what? You think that we all own someone’s personal performance of a musical piece?
What do you mean a performance? Because performance could be looked at as a service like any other- An entertainment service. Musicians make most of their money on tour precisely out of charging for this service. In this sense it is not an idea. The idea would be the manner of performance, singing, style of dancing, formation etc, which other people can do. Should this performance be captured somewhere like a tape/CD etc- Then it becomes information.
How is that possible? My son writes music, no one else helps him write it, it comes from his brain, it is HIS music! If I ever write a book, those words were MY choice, I did the writing, the book is MY property! Ideas/words/music/art is not common property!
You and your Son deserve to make money off your legitimate human labour- off your work which is noble. That’s why the IP Laws are just- If they did not exist, you may find it impossible to make money off of such work. But that does not necessarily translate into ownership over the ideas that you come up with in your work or the information that you engender.
I hope I am just not understanding you correctly, and you really don’t mean that no one owns their own creations or ideas!
No one does. If they did, then No Government would have a right to take it from them after a certain number of years. The only reason that you could come up with your book or your sons their music is that society has allowed ideas to be built on ideas free of charge for centuries to create the different cultures, genres, ways of thinking that now lead to the book you set down to write or the song you record. Ideas and information are not like things- they are meant to be shared so that they benefit the common good. No-one should be allowed to own it- Temporary laws built to protect the labour and efforts that go to bringing them forward have to be balanced against the common good.
Why does the format change mean that file-sharing is not theft? If I published a book, and someone else bought one copy, scanned it into a computer, printed hundreds of the counterfeit book, and sold them, that would be theft.
It’s theft only because the Law says it is. There is something wrong with this action you describe but it is very different from what you say. The Law saying it’s theft does not mean that it is theft in reality. You have your physical book, that’s your property. Theft from all the human societies would have only meant someone taking your physical book without your permission.

What is wrong with that action is that:
One- That person is trying to sell something he has not put any real effort in. If were merely trying to distribute it at no cost, or only recovering the cost of reproducing it but not make any profit at all, that would be different. To me, he would just be sharing/spreading information, not stealing ideas.
Two: Depending on the situation in that scenario, the original creator may end up not making money off his work that he put into writing the book. (Hence why the Govt creates a law that outlaws what you described)
Speaking of counterfeit, why can’t I “file-share” $20 bills? I mean, no one owns the idea of money, right?? :rolleyes:
Easy! It’s impractical and the Government says you can’t! It’s got nothing to do with ownership of ideas.
One: Money or any medium of exchange requires uniformity or it can’t work- Who would trade with you if you had money only you recognized?
Two: Currency only works if it has value- which it will not have if it’s easily produced by everyone.
Three: Because of it’s delicacy and it’s foundation in the whole economic structure of the Country- The Government just says No way, no how! There’s still no basis in natural law that the Government owns the idea of money! (The person who first came up with it must be at least 5,000 years old, and I’m sure he did not claim any compensation for it either!- Back then no one convinced himself that he owned ideas simply because he thought of it first- They understood that ideas are for the whole of society)- The considerations that go in to the whole protection of currency are wholly different.

Peace.
 
If I can stick my nose in, this thread is much too long for me to read it all first, so hopefully this hasn’t been touched on already If it has, sorry.

I am not commenting on whether it is legal or not to have music downloaded from the internet or other ways that I haven’t paid for. Originally I used to justify it this way:
  1. If the music was on a file sharing service, I didn’t justify it at all. I just downloaded it. After a few years of this, I realized that what I was doing was wrong, so I stopped. But did I dump the files? Not at that time.
  2. I used to copy CDs from the public library justifying it by saying that it’s there for public use. But you can’t just copy a whole book either, so that doesn’t fly.
After I became a Catholic, I realized that not only what I was doing was wrong, but that I was going to have to confess it. And I didn’t want to confess it more than once.

So I cataloged everything and dumped it except for the CDs that I had ripped that I already owned, or ones I have purchased online (precious few). Now that I had everything in a list, I could decide just how badly I really wanted it.

The vast majority, I had never even listed to after I downloaded or copied them. Most of the ones I wanted are available at Spotify truly for free, so I just added them to a playlist. A few I bought, but the rest, I have not missed at all, and I have a clean conscience. And THAT is more valuable to me than owning a bunch of music whether I obtained it legally or not.

I think we place too much emphasis on entertainment and this is leading too many people into sin. I am not judging anyone here. As I said, I haven’t read the thread. But if you think the Lord is convicting you (you know who you are), then you are probably guilty. So stop justifying sin and STOP it. It’s just not worth it.

If you are standing in front of Jesus at the judgement, will you be able to justify it to him?
 
Here is an article that explains the difference between an idea and IP.
I read the first part of that article. He is talking legally not philosophically. He actually says all IP starts with an idea. That should not be controversial since IP stands for Intellectual Property. What does the intellect produce, other than ideas? He goes on to explain you must express or publish the idea in order to claim ownership in the idea. I agree. But what is ultimately protected is an idea. You can’t say the actual expression is protected because even if I reproduce the idea myself I am still violating the protection offered to the idea. I can not assemble the expression on my own. What is protected is not the physical expression but the idea behind it.
Once again? Unfair to who?
Unfair to the rest of society. Monopolies are generally looked upon negatively.
Why can’t I will the rights to my original work to my son and he to his son? Why not?
If you can own ideas then you can. Thank goodness the Apostles did not have this notion otherwise the Gospel would have never spread.
  1. What is stopping anyone from creating their own original works?
Copyright law. If someone else had the same idea but published or otherwise obtained exclusive ownership of it a split second before me then I can no longer recreate what I myself created. The idea is original for two people but only one gets to own it exclusively.
  1. Why do I get the feeling that lazy and/or unimaginative people want copyrights to extend only 20 years so that if they saw Star Wars when they were 18, by the time they turn 38, they can make new books and toys and other Star Wars merchandise and, theoretically, lots and lots of money?
I could easily say why do I get the feeling rent seekers are the ones who support copyright law.

Why do you presume only the lazy and unimaginative people support copyright? If you are not aware you should learn about all the free software available that has been given to the public. You can get a complete operating system that is the result of millions of man hours of work for free.
 
What do you mean a performance? Because performance could be looked at as a service like any other- An entertainment service. Musicians make most of their money on tour precisely out of charging for this service. In this sense it is not an idea. The idea would be the manner of performance, singing, style of dancing, formation etc, which other people can do. Should this performance be captured somewhere like a tape/CD etc- Then it becomes information.You and your Son deserve to make money off your legitimate human labour- off your work which is noble. That’s why the IP Laws are just- If they did not exist, you may find it impossible to make money off of such work. But that does not necessarily translate into ownership over the ideas that you come up with in your work or the information that you engender. No one does. If they did, then No Government would have a right to take it from them after a certain number of years. The only reason that you could come up with your book or your sons their music is that society has allowed ideas to be built on ideas free of charge for centuries to create the different cultures, genres, ways of thinking that now lead to the book you set down to write or the song you record. Ideas and information are not like things- they are meant to be shared so that they benefit the common good. No-one should be allowed to own it- Temporary laws built to protect the labour and efforts that go to bringing them forward have to be balanced against the common good.
It’s theft only because the Law says it is. There is something wrong with this action you describe but it is very different from what you say. The Law saying it’s theft does not mean that it is theft in reality. You have your physical book, that’s your property. Theft from all the human societies would have only meant someone taking your physical book without your permission.

What is wrong with that action is that:
One- That person is trying to sell something he has not put any real effort in. If were merely trying to distribute it at no cost, or only recovering the cost of reproducing it but not make any profit at all, that would be different. To me, he would just be sharing/spreading information, not stealing ideas.
Two: Depending on the situation in that scenario, the original creator may end up not making money off his work that he put into writing the book. (Hence why the Govt creates a law that outlaws what you described)
Easy! It’s impractical and the Government says you can’t! It’s got nothing to do with ownership of ideas.
One: Money or any medium of exchange requires uniformity or it can’t work- Who would trade with you if you had money only you recognized?
Two: Currency only works if it has value- which it will not have if it’s easily produced by everyone.
Three: Because of it’s delicacy and it’s foundation in the whole economic structure of the Country- The Government just says No way, no how! There’s still no basis in natural law that the Government owns the idea of money! (The person who first came up with it must be at least 5,000 years old, and I’m sure he did not claim any compensation for it either!- Back then no one convinced himself that he owned ideas simply because he thought of it first- They understood that ideas are for the whole of society)- The considerations that go in to the whole protection of currency are wholly different.

Peace.
All of this just gives me a headache. Why does everyone need to make it so painfully difficult? JUST DON’T TAKE WHAT ISN’T YOURS!!!

:doh2::banghead:
 
All of this just gives me a headache. Why does everyone need to make it so painfully difficult? JUST DON’T TAKE WHAT ISN’T YOURS!!!

:doh2::banghead:
Because some of us are not here for the sake of discovering what is the correct thing to do in a particular present circumstance, but are trying to understand the reason behind it for the sake of knowing and understanding it. 🤷 This is a good thing in and of itself to do. Not every conversation on CAF has to be geared towards a practical problem that somebody is dealing with.
 
Because some of us are not here for the sake of discovering what is the correct thing to do in a particular present circumstance, but are trying to understand the reason behind it for the sake of knowing and understanding it. 🤷 This is a good thing in and of itself to do. Not every conversation on CAF has to be geared towards a practical problem that somebody is dealing with.
🙂

The correct thing to do is not to steal what doesn’t belong to you. There. Guess I’m just a simple person.

😉
 
All of this just gives me a headache. Why does everyone need to make it so painfully difficult? * JUST DON’T TAKE WHAT ISN’T YOURS!!!*:doh2::banghead:
:yawn:
This is a philosophical debate and our contention is that those ideas, like the sunrise, belong to nobody! We are not saying that anyone should break the Law. Keeping on telling us not to take what is not ours is requiring us to believe in the per-sumption that any person can own ideas- you have not shown that they do.
 
This is a philosophical debate and our contention is that those ideas, like the sunrise, belong to nobody!.
Perhaps one of the difficulties with this discussion is that we are trying to address all aspects of IP morality at once (movies, books, music, software, patent ideas). Let’s take one explicit example at a time. Suppose I am an independent software developer - not part of a huge corporation - but a little business that I run our of my home. It is the sole source of income for me and my family and I have been doing OK. The software I write and sell is licensed to one user at a time and contains copy protection technology to enforce that license. Now suppose some hackers have figured out how to crack my copy protection technology and placed the cracked version of my software on a free downloads web site. Now you come along looking for my software and discover that it is available on this cracked web site. In this specific case is it moral for you to download and use my software from this site? Is it moral or immoral by natural law or merely by convention or what? Or does my software belong to nobody, like the sunrise?
 
MaryBeloved, I have an idea, you hack into my brain, and I’ll be your intellectual property?
 
Here is a question I have a site I go to for mix tapes. There a paid and free membership to the website. I have free membership so I am limited to 5 mix tapes a day is that wrong? Some on the site are sponsored by the artist so they are free for everyone, so I assume they are fine. Also is it ok if you watch shows online for free, like I watch the show Top Gear from the UK online free day after it comes out there, cause it takes about 6 months to come to tv here is there anything wrong with it, as a side note to that I do watch them when they show them on US tv also and have noticed that they do in fact change the show for the us and remove parts to fit tv as the BBC in Britain has no ads. Anyway thanks for your help in clearing this up for me.
 
Perhaps one of the difficulties with this discussion is that we are trying to address all aspects of IP morality at once (movies, books, music, software, patent ideas). Let’s take one explicit example at a time. Suppose I am an independent software developer - not part of a huge corporation - but a little business that I run our of my home. It is the sole source of income for me and my family and I have been doing OK. The software I write and sell is licensed to one user at a time and contains copy protection technology to enforce that license. Now suppose some hackers have figured out how to crack my copy protection technology and placed the cracked version of my software on a free downloads web site. Now you come along looking for my software and discover that it is available on this cracked web site. In this specific case is it moral for you to download and use my software from this site? Is it moral or immoral by natural law or merely by convention or what? Or does my software belong to nobody, like the sunrise?
Good example and it applies to all works that can be copyright. Take the Entertainment Software Association:

theesa.com/policy/antipiracy.asp

Peace,
Ed
 
Perhaps one of the difficulties with this discussion is that we are trying to address all aspects of IP morality at once (movies, books, music, software, patent ideas). Let’s take one explicit example at a time. Suppose I am an independent software developer - not part of a huge corporation - but a little business that I run our of my home. It is the sole source of income for me and my family and I have been doing OK. The software I write and sell is licensed to one user at a time and contains copy protection technology to enforce that license. Now suppose some hackers have figured out how to crack my copy protection technology and placed the cracked version of my software on a free downloads web site. Now you come along looking for my software and discover that it is available on this cracked web site. In this specific case is it moral for you to download and use my software from this site? Is it moral or immoral by natural law or merely by convention or what? Or does my software belong to nobody, like the sunrise?
LeafbyNiggle, we discussed hacking earlier already, no? And I’m pretty sure I gave it as the example of what would be theft on the internet, like a house-breaking/robbing. So apart from this (which we already agreed) how does that example differ from the example that RealJulianne gave about the scanned book and why shouldn’t the answer I gave her apply here as well? The only real difference of course, is that since we are now talking about a hacker, which we all agreed earlier is no different than a robber/house-breaker/bugler- In other words, a real thief/transgressor and not at all like a person who buys something and shares it with others, in addition to the two reasons I gave RealJuliane why this would be wrong, I would add a third one in this situation-theft. Since what he gets and shares is not his property (The specific files/CDs). The goods taken/downloaded are stolen (Again, I already said this much earlier) and so cannot be shared- they have to be returned. These examples don’t sound any different to me than what we have discussed repeatedly in circles, IMHO.
 
Marybeloved;:
The only real difference of course, is that since we are now talking about a hacker, which we all agreed earlier is no different than a robber/house-breaker/bugler- In other words, a real thief/transgressor and not at all like a person who buys something and shares it with others…
Hacking copy protection quite often involves actually buying one copy legitimately and then analyzing what you bought to figure out how to remove the copy proection from it. Hacking like this is not like breaking into someone’s home. Besides I could just as easily stated my scenario in a way that does not require hacking. Suppose that I sold my software without copy protection technology but simply with a license based on the honor system. That is actually quite common. Now please look at the example again and see if your judgement about it is any different.
 
Here is a question I have a site I go to for mix tapes. There a paid and free membership to the website. I have free membership so I am limited to 5 mix tapes a day is that wrong? Some on the site are sponsored by the artist so they are free for everyone, so I assume they are fine. Also is it ok if you watch shows online for free, like I watch the show Top Gear from the UK online free day after it comes out there, cause it takes about 6 months to come to tv here is there anything wrong with it, as a side note to that I do watch them when they show them on US tv also and have noticed that they do in fact change the show for the us and remove parts to fit tv as the BBC in Britain has no ads. Anyway thanks for your help in clearing this up for me.
You are doing nothing wrong. The site owners are allowing you do have access to the songs, and as you say, the musicians are in full agreement that people can download their work. On the BBC website, if a show is available for viewing, you are doing nothing wrong by viewing content that is provided on their site. My husband watches their news broadcasts frequently, or the match news conference with Sir Alex Ferguson - all are free to viewers. It is a service the BBC provides. Many websites show you an ad or two before they show the content, so it’s not really free. 😉
 
Hacking copy protection quite often involves actually buying one copy legitimately and then analyzing what you bought to figure out how to remove the copy proection from it. Hacking like this is not like breaking into someone’s home. Besides I could just as easily stated my scenario in a way that does not require hacking. Suppose that I sold my software without copy protection technology but simply with a license based on the honor system. That is actually quite common. Now please look at the example again and see if your judgement about it is any different.
What do you mean by honor system? Isn’t that what you’ve been arguing from the begnning? Basically, it’s some type of restriction imposed on the buyer of a product on how they can use the product in future, right? I honestly don’t see how any of these examples changes anything we’ve discussed from the beginning. A person sells something to another and then limits how they can use that property that they have given/sold to them in future- The only reason that a person can attempt to control or limit how another uses their own property that they have bought legitimately is this artificial construct called IP, which the Government creates for the reasons we’ve been talking about. If there’s no ownership of ideas or information itself, there’s just no basis in natural law for trying to control how people use their properties that they legitimately acquire in future. Again, this is what we’ve been arguing. 🤷 If you’re saying something different, then you’ll have to explain to me what you really mean by this honor-system and what basis it has in natural Law apart from the claim of ownership over ideas or information.
 
@RealJulianne, I’m very sorry for posting this stupid emoticon at you.
I really don’t know what I was thinking, but I feel really foolish right now seeing it there under my name. It’s too late to delete it, so I really just hope a simple sorry can suffice. …Sorry 😊.
 
@RealJulianne, I’m very sorry for posting this stupid emoticon at you. I really don’t know what I was thinking, but I feel really foolish right now seeing it there under my name. It’s too late to delete it, so I really just hope a simple sorry can suffice. …Sorry 😊.
:rotfl::rotfl:

Don’t worry about it! I thought you were saying I was boring you! Hahahaha! I don’t take much on the internet personally, don’t let it trouble you at all.

It’s all good.

Going to rip a few more CDs now…

😉
 
What do you mean by honor system? Isn’t that what you’ve been arguing from the begnning? Basically, it’s some type of restriction imposed on the buyer of a product on how they can use the product in future, right? I honestly don’t see how any of these examples changes anything we’ve discussed from the beginning. A person sells something to another and then limits how they can use that property that they have given/sold to them in future- The only reason that a person can attempt to control or limit how another uses their own property that they have bought legitimately is this artificial construct called IP, which the Government creates for the reasons we’ve been talking about. If there’s no ownership of ideas or information itself, there’s just no basis in natural law for trying to control how people use their properties that they legitimately acquire in future. Again, this is what we’ve been arguing. 🤷 If you’re saying something different, then you’ll have to explain to me what you really mean by this honor-system and what basis it has in natural Law apart from the claim of ownership over ideas or information.
In this context the honor system means I don’t employ any external means to enforce the terms of my license agreement. If I understand you correctly then your answer was that breaking the terms of that license agreement is not immoral, but it would be immoral if I employed some form of copy protection which you had to circumvent (because you liken it to breaking into someone’s house). If so, then it is very strange that you attach so much importance to the breaking of the copy protection that you conclude that it makes the difference between the subsequent sharing of the software being moral or immoral. In both cases the license agreement is the same. I just made it a little harder to violate agreement in one case.
 
In this context the honor system means I don’t employ any external means to enforce the terms of my license agreement. If I understand you correctly then your answer was that breaking the terms of that license agreement is not immoral, but it would be immoral if I employed some form of copy protection which you had to circumvent (because you liken it to breaking into someone’s house). If so, then it is very strange that you attach so much importance to the breaking of the copy protection that you conclude that it makes the difference between the subsequent sharing of the software being moral or immoral. In both cases the license agreement is the same. I just made it a little harder to violate agreement in one case.
It really isn’t all that hard- You are the one pushing the argument with ‘license agreements’- not me. My position is that these agreements have no basis in natural law apart from our duty to respect just and rightful authority. For me hacking into someone’s website involves forcefully taking the actual files stored there that still belong to them that they have not sold or given away. Finding a way to get into your own product that you have bought and is your property is wholly different. Its immorality will be dependent, as I said to RealJulianne, on the issues of laziness and greed as well as the likelihood of harming the income of the creators in their work, which is a matter of justice that the IP laws take care of.
 
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