The Mormon boys came to my door...

[truthsilence]

Yikes. I assume you’re addressing me. That would be LEHL and NOT Lehi which is actually a Book of Mormon character.

Big Woops! Sorry about that! I know all about Lehi. I apparantly can’t see too well, even *with *my glasses, cause your l sure looked like an i! Sooo sorry about that!

:bowdown2:

 

[hosemonkey]

Man I am slow posting. More like cross posting/getting behind the curve.

Eden and Lehi: Thankfully, we have plenty of official statements from the Magesterium of the Church that actually makes sense. Just one more thing I love about being Catholic. :heaven: The “coffee is bad” vs “abortion is bad/however” had never occured to me. Good observation.

I am willing to bet that aborting a child will send you to hell much faster than drinking a cup of coffee.

 

[PaulDupre]

And also, God apparently doesn’t deem it important enough to reveal to the LDS “prophet” when human life begins (also it would obviously contradict their already-declared authoritative position on abortion), and thus why they have no official position on stem cell research.

It is both amusing and amazing that the Mormon prophets can tell you how many earrings you can wear, but cannot tell you when life begins.
God bless,
Paul

 

[hosemonkey]

It is both amusing and amazing that the Mormon prophets can tell you how many earrings you can wear, but cannot tell you when life begins.
God bless,
Paul

Earings and coffee drinking are easy for wannabe “prophets”. Tough issues like abortion and when life begins should be left to the true prophetic voice, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

 

[Lehl]

Big Woops! Sorry about that! I know all about Lehi. I apparantly can’t see too well, even *with *my glasses, cause your l sure looked like an i! Sooo sorry about that!

:bowdown2:

No problem at all:thumbsup: . But I sure did get a really good laugh out of it!

 

[truthsilence]

No problem at all:thumbsup: . But I sure did get a really good laugh out of it!

Thanks. That makes me happy! I’m only funny when I’m not trying to be. I’m so not funny…

Sooo, how was that boat trip anyhoo? Hard breathing?

(see what I mean)

 

[Lehl]

Funny, how much more of this stuff I’m coming across.

I just LOVE these gems from President Hinckley:

Gordon B. Hinckley, in an interview reported in the San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, commented on revelation and the present-day church:

Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?
A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don’t need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we’ve already received.

Now we don’t need a lot of continuing revelation. We have a great, basic reservoir of revelation. But if a problem arises, as it does occasionally, a vexatious thing with which we have to deal, we go to the Lord in prayer. We discuss it as a First Presidency and as a Council of the Twelve Apostles. We pray about it and then comes the whisperings of a still small voice. And we know the direction we should take and we proceed accordingly.

I suppose then that means that the question of “when human life begins” is quite low on their agenda of “vexatious things” since they’ve obviously not been vexed enough to pray about it. Otherwise, we would see this direction “they should take and proceed accordingly”.

So again, I ask–what purpose do these LDS “prophets” serve then? Why is it that a "prophet " who according to www.lds.org is

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophets—inspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures. We sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator—the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church.

a “selling point” of Mormonism when their own “prophet” says "we don’t need much revelation and we need to pay more attention to the revelation we’ve already received?

What about

The Church is founded on continuing revelation to a current, living prophet.

Sounds like their own “prophet” doubts his own value as a “prophet” as well as the need for “continuing revelation”.

Absolutely incredible.

 

[truthsilence]

Quote:
Now we don’t need a lot of continuing revelation. We have a great, basic reservoir of revelation. But if a problem arises, as it does occasionally, a vexatious thing with which we have to deal, we go to the Lord in prayer. We discuss it as a First Presidency and as a Council of the Twelve Apostles. We pray about it and then comes the whisperings of a still small voice. And we know the direction we should take and we proceed accordingly.

Lehl, you really should share this with thomasf, over on his thread entitled “the so-called apostasy”. His LDS friend might be interested in hearing this, after what he told thomasf about the function of the college of cardinals, etc…

 

[Lehl]

Yeah, I just noticed that thread.

Since this one has more or less died, I’ll go over onto that one.

 

[pjn6444]

If you want to “engage” Mormons. As in share your faith with them. You must do it in a respectable manner. You are not going to convince them if you shout that they are wrong and heretics. Jesus said, “follow me” he didn’t say, everyone who doesn’t follow me is a heretic who will burn in the fires of Hell. So, if you do want to share your faith do it tactfully, also let them tell you about their faith. It isn’t quite fair to them if you just tell your side and won’t let them tell their’s. I had a conversation with a few Mormon missionaries the other night. I did not share much about my faith. I said I was Catholic, and I mentioned a few small things here and there. But also, these missionaries are looking for people interested in their faith. They are not trudging around town looking for people to tell them about other faiths.
So, if a Mormon missionary comes to your house, and you’re not interested in hearing about the Mormon faith, just tell them. Just politely say you are not interested. If you do want to hear about it invite them in and talk. After they have told you about it, you can mention some things to them. You could possibly say.“I do not understand how the Mormon faith can say that the apostolic succession died with the apostles, when the Mormon faith claims a similar style of apostolic succession from Joseph Smith.” Perhaps say something intelligent, not just “you are all just a bunch of heretics” remember they themselves are not heretics since they never professed a faith to the catholic church. Also they are not protestants. The Mormon missionaries will explain the story of Joseph Smith.
Well I hope this helped some.

 

[thirdnep11]

I would like to toss in my opinion as a Latter Day Saint and a person who enjoys sharing my faith and hearing the faith of others.

Missionaries are not just there to share the gospel. They are there to show the love of God to His children (which includes sharing the gospel.) They should be happy to share with you as well as listen to you share your faith. Questioning the doctorine of the church in a polite way should not drive them away. Bear in mind that Latter Day Saints should NEVER try to prove you wrong. We are only interested in sharing our beliefs with you and letting you make up your mind.

Above all remember they are there out of love for you as their fellow child of God. They get no temporal gain for serving a mission, it is purley out of love.

Thanks,
Thirdnep11

 

[SPH1]

…and I would like to egage them for a while. I would like an opportunity to share my faith with them. I have invited them back at a later time.

Those of you with a Mormon past, how should the conversation go? Do I let them dominate the conversation, or do I redirect? If I come on too strong they’ll high-tail it and I won’t be able to share.

Any advice?

Haven’t read the thread except for your post, and I’m sure you have many good answers.

One thing: remember that it is your house and they are the guest. You call the shots. Not them.

 

[Lehl]

Missionaries are not just there to share the gospel. They are there to show the love of God to His children (which includes sharing the gospel.)

Anyone else find this amusing?

So when missionaries are “not just there to share the gospel” I would really like to know just what do they DO to “show the love of God” when they are NOT sharing “the gospel”?

Please don’t tell me that they offer to mow your grass, bring in your groceries, paint your fence, or whatever else. We all know that those are simply mechanisms to establish a sense of obligation on the part of the target to get their foot in the door so they’ll listen to their high-pressure sales pitch. I do believe it is officially called “Building Relationships of Trust”.

Questioning the doctorine of the church in a polite way should not drive them away.

If you know too much, they tend to high-tale it out. They’re looking for those that are poorly catechised and don’t want to waste their time with you trying to defend the indefensible.

Bear in mind that Latter Day Saints should NEVER try to prove you wrong.

Hmmm. My leg just got wet and it’s not raining! No total apostasy means no need for a restoration. The missionaries absolutely do have to try to prove us wrong. Are you going to try to tell me that the missionaries do not include a lesson on this supposed “Great Apostasy”?

But you’re right. If they encounter a Catholic who is properly catechised they don’t seem to even want to try to prove us wrong. Instead they run away very quickly. Frankly I’ve been rather stunned at the lack of knowledge of the missionaries of their own religion. I’ve happily enlightened a few of them with their own church-approved sources.

 

[thirdnep11]

I’m very sorry you feel the way you do about the missionaries, it sounds like you have very strong opinions about the work they do.

I believe your misunderstanding of their intentions in visiting people is evidenced through your use of the term “Sales Pitch.” The savior himself taught us that through service we can show our love for our fellow man. If doing kind acts for people in need is a bad thing than I guess most Latter Day Saints would be guilty. And the missionaries are obviously not selling anything as I stated before they have no temporal gain in serving a mission. There are no quotas, no pay, in fact they pay their own way for 2 years.

Knowing too much does not drive the missionaries away. They are taught that if an individual is obviously not interested in the gospel to leave them alone. If you approach them with a litany of anti-Mormon questions they may begin to get the impression that you are not interested in learning about our faith, but instead you are interested in bashing and demeaning us.

As for proving people wrong, you must understand that in order for anyone to be converted to any church they must first admit that they are wrong in some way. A protestant for example, must admit they have been wrong regarding a number of things before they can be baptized into the Catholic church. The same goes for anyone interested in joining the LDS church. What we will not due is attempt to prove anyone wrong by defeating them. We will share our faith and bear our testimonies and if the investigator feels prompted by the Holy Ghost that they should change their life to bring it in harmony with the gospel than so be it. We will not spend time refuting the doctrines of other churches, instead we will share the truth of the restored gospel.

I believe such negative opinions come from a feeling that we are drawing people away from the correct faith. Unfortunately that is a subjective opinion, as anyone of a different faith would be “drawing people away” from what the critic holds to be the correct faith.

 

[Lehl]

I’m very sorry you feel the way you do about the missionaries, it sounds like you have very strong opinions about the work they do.

I most definetly have a strong opinion on the “work” they do. They are out deceiving people and leading them astray. Furthermore, LDS love to target undereducated Catholics as evidenced by where most of their missionaries are located in the world.

I’m sure you’re next protest will be that they are not decieving people. I’m including purposely witholding key Mormon tenets as another form of deception. So I’ll head you off there and ask you just when these missionaries discuss:

There are multiple gods
God was once a man
Men can become gods of their own planets
Kolob
Spirit children
Jesus was created by physical sex between God and Mary
Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers
Heavenly Mother
Curse of Cain
Jesus was married to multiple wives
Celestial polygamy

as a starter list. None of these are in the six missionary discussions. I also realize these would be considered “anti-Mormon questions” used to demean you and bash your religion, right? I get it. Hey, these are your beliefs and if you want to call them anti-Mormon questions, go ahead. I just know the missionaries cannot provide the “meat before the milk”. That is deception plain and simple, also called lying by omission.

Therefore, all of your converts must discover these blasephemies once its too late. My protestant sister-in-law is one such person. She was horrified to discover what she had gotten herself into and felt lied to when she found out about “men can become gods of their own planets.” Usually this is why the LDS have such dismal retention rates.

Until LDS include ways for investigators to learn of and ask questions about these types of “doctrines” BEFORE their baptisms, I will always denounce the LDS missionary program as purposely deceptive to get converts.

I KNOW the missionary program is all about the numbers. You can’t try to tell me otherwise. Are you forgetting that I am married into a Mormon family? The missionaries were always over at my husband’s parent’s house (FIL is a bishop) and all I heard were questions to the missionaries about “How many baptisms do you have and are there any pending?” Then I would listen as the missionary would talk about people backing out. My mother-in-law would lament “Oh, they must not have a ‘teachable’ spirit.” I guess I didn’t, either!

The first question of my missionary sister-in-law was about how many baptisms she got. None, I Thank God especially since she went to a predominantly Catholic country .

Besides, there are plenty of ex-Mormons that were missionaries that post their stories all over the internet about all the pressure they recieved to “get their numbers up” etc. Baseball baptisms, anyone?

RCIA to become a Catholic takes nearly a year. People are allowed to ask any question they want and topics covered include: pedophile priests, the Inquisition, etc. You can just Google some parishes’ RCIA schedules. We WANT informed converts.

Instead it seems since there are only 6 Mormon discussions and you can become a full (uninformed) Mormon in 2 weeks or less, where’s the fire? Slow down and get some quality converts by really teaching them what Mormonism is all about.

I would seriously have no problem with that. It is the current deception which I have a huge problem with.

 

[Allweather]

I know a couple of young missionaries currently on duty in foreign countries, and have read most of their written reports home. By virtue of these reports, I must completely agree with Leil that they are extremely invested in the “numbers game.” They complain bitterly that few people attend church on Sundays. They have few investigatores, and complain about the difficulty in getting people to listen to them. All, and I mean ALL, of their work appears oriented to getting converts.

This is a whole 'nuther ballgame than the one played by Catholic missionaries, such as, say, Mother Theresa, who simply went into the streets to pick up dying humans and tend to them in their last days.

I’d suggest that if the Mormon missionaries were truly interested in helping people, they’d find plenty of business a lot closer to home than where most of them actually go.

 

[truthsilence]

Here, in an area where Mormonism is very concentrated, I hear much more about what “good experience” a mission is for the missionary him/herself, than I hear about them actually going out to help others, although of course many of them do believe that bringing someone into the church is helping them. In some cases, it does help people. That doesn’t make it* true*.

An LDS mission helps “build character” for the missionary, it “teaches them confidence” “helps them grow into a mature young adult”. It teaches them to be able to “handle rejection”,. It teaches them, albeit in a contolled environement, how to “be out on their own”.

Of course, it makes them (the men particularly), a much more desirable prospect for marriage.

Perhaps it is just the people I’m around, but seriously, I hear this stuff on a regular basis. Heck, at one time I even wanted my own son to go on a mission, and he wasn’t the least bit interested in the church! I wanted him to learn all of these great traits, and gain all this wonderful experience that I kept hearing about over and over and over to prepare him for the rest of his life

Of course these character traits are desirable. I just have a hard time with them calling those eighteen months to two years a "mission’. It’s more like a sales campaign.

 

[Stephen168]

An LDS mission helps “build character” for the missionary, it “teaches them confidence” “helps them grow into a mature young adult”.

Ofcourse, I had the same experience in the military

 

[rmcmullan]

I know a couple of young missionaries currently on duty in foreign countries, and have read most of their written reports home.

Hey, me too Allweather! My two oldest sons!

I think thirdnep11 said it best. We regard missionary work as a duty to God and our fellow man. So don’t be mean to the missionaries when they come visit.

 

[Jerusha]

I agree 100%. No matter what you believe, be excruciatingly polite. Remember, LDS people tend to have raging persecution complexes-- partially as a result of the negative experiences of young and naive missionaries, and partially as a result of their own distorted view of history. ANYONE can do something about the first factor.