The Mormon Church and Dissent

[RebeccaJ]

CFR.

pbs.org/mormons/interviews/quinn.html

“So I said, “Fine, I’ll read it when I feel well enough.” I closed the door, and I put the letter down, and a few hours later, when I woke up from my feverish state and was well enough to read the letter, I read it. It said that I had been guilty of apostasy, and it outlined three evidences of my apostasy, and two of them were publications that I had written, and one of them was my statement to The New York Times that compared the 20th-century leadership to the 19th-century leadership, and I said in the 19th-century leadership that the LDS leaders acknowledged the existence of a loyal opposition. They didn’t like to have dissenters, but they acknowledged that one could be loyal and also disagree with the leadership. But, I said, in the 20th century, they don’t acknowledge the existence of a loyal opposition, and they often take church measures against them. That was the third example of my apostasy, which shows that the leadership today has no sense of irony. But that was the time when I saw it in black and white, where I was accused of apostasy.”

…]

[Q:]How did you respond when you read the letter? Had you been expecting it, or were you still incredulous?

“No, I was expecting it, and I was mad as hell. … It was like the old line from the movie Network]: I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!” I had never, prior to that, gone to the media. I had been quoted a lot, including [in] Newsweek and *Time *magazine, The New York Times, but it was always when the media came to me. …

Well, this time I went to the media, and I produced for the local newspaper, The Salt Lake Tribune, a photocopy of this letter from the stake president so that they would see, and they ran articles: “Mormon historian being pursued.” And this ended up as an AP [Associated Press] story. "

 

[Answersplease]

(color and emphasis added)

Read the full interview for Margaret Toscano:
pbs.org/mormons/interviews/toscano.html

Margaret Toscano is a classics professor at the University of Utah who was excommunicated in 2000 for writing about the role of women in Mormonism.

I was excommunicated in the year 2000. I was actually threatened with excommunication seven years before, which would be 1993, which was the famous September Six [the excommunication and disfellowshipping of six Mormon academics] and all of that. I was one of the first to be threatened with excommunications in the summer of 1993. … I received a letter from my stake president at the time. In this letter, I was told that I was not allowed to speak, discuss, publish, write about anything to do with church history or church doctrine or they would hold a court on me. Those things that they had asked me not to speak about were women in the priesthood and the Mormon idea or the Mormon concept of the Heavenly Mother. …

 

[why_me]

Quote:

Quote:
.

Too bad you have a problem with going back in the history of the LDS. Shows how the LDS and Joseph Smith were false from the get-go.

Mormon history is rather recent. We don’t need to go that far back. However, with catholic history many of the events ocurred so long ago that people even when they read about them don’t get too bent out of shape. But if we do go back in catholic history we can find some real problems with corruption, nepotism etc. Not to mention the power politics between church and state. There is much in catholic history that is not complimentary.

But then again, there is much in protestant history that is not complimentary either. It goes with the turf with having people who are basically imperfect making history.

 

[why_me]

pbs.org/mormons/interviews/quinn.html

. "

And yet, I provided what FAIRlds said about the issue and they seem to have a different perspective with their own evidence.

 

[why_me]

Well I think we’re agreed that why me’s analysis is a straw man.

Every church has its own way with dealing with wayward members. If I am a catholic priest I will not be able to use the pulpit to proclaim why the catholic church should end celibacy. I would be shown the door if I kept up the chant. If I am an archbishop I will be excommunicated if I begin to marry priests. This is how catholics do things. No problem. Mormons have their way and catholics have their way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And yet, I provided what FAIRlds said about the issue and they seem to have a different perspective with their own evidence.

Believe FAIR and their guessing and agenda for character assassination for anyone who has a differing opinion than their own, or, believe the person who’s experience this is…in other words…they, and you, are calling Quinn a liar.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Every church has its own way with dealing with wayward members. If I am a catholic priest I will not be able to use the pulpit to proclaim why the catholic church should end celibacy. I would be shown the door if I kept up the chant.

An example of this please.

 

[dianaiad]

pbs.org/mormons/interviews/quinn.html

“So I said, “Fine, I’ll read it when I feel well enough.” I closed the door, and I put the letter down, and a few hours later, when I woke up from my feverish state and was well enough to read the letter, I read it. It said that I had been guilty of apostasy, and it outlined three evidences of my apostasy, and two of them were publications that I had written, and one of them was my statement to The New York Times that compared the 20th-century leadership to the 19th-century leadership, and I said in the 19th-century leadership that the LDS leaders acknowledged the existence of a loyal opposition. They didn’t like to have dissenters, but they acknowledged that one could be loyal and also disagree with the leadership. But, I said, in the 20th century, they don’t acknowledge the existence of a loyal opposition, and they often take church measures against them. That was the third example of my apostasy, which shows that the leadership today has no sense of irony. But that was the time when I saw it in black and white, where I was accused of apostasy.”

…]

[Q:]How did you respond when you read the letter? Had you been expecting it, or were you still incredulous?

“No, I was expecting it, and I was mad as hell. … It was like the old line from the movie Network]: I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!” I had never, prior to that, gone to the media. I had been quoted a lot, including [in] Newsweek and *Time *magazine, The New York Times, but it was always when the media came to me. …

Well, this time I went to the media, and I produced for the local newspaper, The Salt Lake Tribune, a photocopy of this letter from the stake president so that they would see, and they ran articles: “Mormon historian being pursued.” And this ended up as an AP [Associated Press] story. "

Interesting quote, Rebecca. You know that the quote Quinn referred to didn’t come from the article you claimed he was excommunicated for, right?

Ok, you claim that I am incorrect about what Quinn was excommunicated for when I said that he was ex’d for being an active homosexual and apostasy (and that the court wasn’t unanimous about the apostasy.)–oh, and that QUINN claimed that he was ex’d only because of that one article. You claim as proof that the letter calling him to attend church court was published in the SLT.

I call for references, and you give me an interview from Quinn saying precisely what I claimed he said? Talk about irony—and a more delicious irony is that within three paragraphs of the above quote from Quinn, he says he would love to be invited back to the church if the church would ‘stop using political power against gays and lesbians,’ but that he wouldn’t accept that invitation because he was tired of being a ‘silent dissenter’ (he was QUIET?) and believed that 'so many of its current policies are contrary to what I believe is the will of God."

Dang, Rebecca, even QUINN got the order of his problems with the church right in this interview.

As for the letter, it doesn’t say what either Quinn or you claim it said. In fact, the pertinent part of that letter is actually quoted in a Wiki article, where the stake president tells him that Quinn has to come in to talk about matters APART FROM his articles.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Interesting quote, Rebecca. You know that the quote Quinn referred to didn’t come from the article you claimed he was excommunicated for, right?

Ok, you claim that I am incorrect about what Quinn was excommunicated for when I said that he was ex’d for being an active homosexual and apostasy (and that the court wasn’t unanimous about the apostasy.)–oh, and that QUINN claimed that he was ex’d only because of that one article. You claim as proof that the letter calling him to attend church court was published in the SLT.

I call for references, and you give me an interview from Quinn saying precisely what I claimed he said? Talk about irony—and a more delicious irony is that within three paragraphs of the above quote from Quinn, he says he would love to be invited back to the church if the church would ‘stop using political power against gays and lesbians,’ but that he wouldn’t accept that invitation because he was tired of being a ‘silent dissenter’ (he was QUIET?) and believed that 'so many of its current policies are contrary to what I believe is the will of God."

Dang, Rebecca, even QUINN got the order of his problems with the church right in this interview.

As for the letter, it doesn’t say what either Quinn or you claim it said. In fact, the pertinent part of that letter is actually quoted in a Wiki article, where the stake president tells him that Quinn has to come in to talk about matters APART FROM his articles.

Diana, Quinn was ex’d for what he wrote, and what he said. This is what he says in the interview. He also sites the increased animosity towards him by LDS leaders, for his publications and his historical research. He clearly states his intent, as a faithful member of the LDS Church, to present the more “difficult” history in a manner that would help people, not hurt them. His stake pres. supported him on this. Your apostles did not.

Since his being ex’d he has become more associated to the LGBT world. His comments that he would return except for this conflict did not exist at the time of his excommunication. It is what he is saying now, many years after he was ex’d.

I’m sorry that you are unable to see this in the interview.

People change, you know? It is obvious he had desired to be a Mormon, and also a desire to be intellectually honest in his work. There is nothing, anywhere, that indicates he was not a faithful mormon before he was ex’d, ie, none of the homosexual activity you are accusing him of.

 

[dianaiad]

Believe FAIR and their guessing and agenda for character assassination for anyone who has a differing opinion than their own, or, believe the person who’s experience this is…in other words…they, and you, are calling Quinn a liar.

Believe FAIR and their guessing and agenda for character assassination for anyone who has a differing opinion than their own, or, believe the person who’s experience this is…in other words…they, and you, are calling Quinn a liar.

Well…

yeah.

They (and we) are doing precisely that, because he is lying. Here’s the thing, Rebecca; the church, when it holds a disciplinary court,* DOES NOT PUBLISH THE FINDINGS*. That is, nobody knows precisely what the 'conduct unbecoming a member of the CoJCoLDS" was; it’s nobody else’s business but that of the excommunicant and his or her priesthood leaders.

So the excommunicant is quite free to say anything he or she wants to.

So here we have an openly (and I do mean openly) gay man, J. Michael Quinn. He divorced his wife. He had more than one gay lover…and there are several letters regarding this conduct from his church leaders asking him to straighten his act. (pun absolutely intended.) He has been writing about the church for years, and nobody did anything about those. His stake president and other church leaders actually went to bat for him regarding what he wrote. According to all reports, there was some controversy at his court (at which he refused to appear) as to whether ‘apostasy’ (those articles) should even be addressed. He was excommunicated, eventually, for 'conduct unbecoming a member of the CoJCoLDS" (being openly and actively gay) and for apostasy. Even Quinn put the gay part first in his interview.

It’s obvious…and nobody, not even Quinn, is denying it anymore. He protests it, but he doesn’t deny it.

There are many people who criticise us for excommunicating actively gay members. (shrug) Whatever, we do that.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well…

yeah.

They (and we) are doing precisely that, because he is lying. Here’s the thing, Rebecca; the church, when it holds a disciplinary court,* DOES NOT PUBLISH THE FINDINGS*. That is, nobody knows precisely what the 'conduct unbecoming a member of the CoJCoLDS" was; it’s nobody else’s business but that of the excommunicant and his or her priesthood leaders.

So the excommunicant is quite free to say anything he or she wants to.

And Mormons are free to go about gossiping.

So here we have an openly (and I do mean openly) gay man, J. Michael Quinn. He divorced his wife. He had more than one gay lover…and there are several letters regarding this conduct from his church leaders asking him to straighten his act.

Regarding his historical, scholarly work.

(pun absolutely intended.) He has been writing about the church for years, and nobody did anything about those. His stake president and other church leaders actually went to bat for him regarding what he wrote. According to all reports, there was some controversy at his court (at which he refused to appear) as to whether ‘apostasy’ (those articles) should even be addressed. He was excommunicated, eventually, for 'conduct unbecoming a member of the CoJCoLDS" (being openly and actively gay) and for apostasy. Even Quinn put the gay part first in his interview.

He never says one word about being ex’d for anything but his historical work.

It’s obvious…and nobody, not even Quinn, is denying it anymore. He protests it, but he doesn’t deny it.

There are many people who criticise us for excommunicating actively gay members. (shrug) Whatever, we do that.

Quinn does not deny he is gay now. He is very open about it. He was not openly gay at the time of his excommunication.

 

[aspirant]

Now what happens to a catholic priest who begins to challenge the law of celibacy or becomes a spokesperson for priests getting married ?

Not much. The laws allowing only celibate men to be ordained in the Latin Catholic Church, with some exceptions, are not doctrine. Anyone can propose that the law be changed, as long as they’re willing to live with disappointment.

If I am a catholic priest I will not be able to use the pulpit to proclaim why the catholic church should end celibacy. I would be shown the door if I kept up the chant.

Hardly. There are archbishops who have done this who weren’t “shown the door.”

 

[zaffiroborant]

If you notice the BYU professor who published what he or she published challanged the truth of the book of mormon. He or she would have faced excommunication or disfellowshipment for that.

Now what happens to a catholic priest who begins to challenge the law of celibacy or becomes a spokesperson for priests getting married ? Or an archbishop who marries priests? I do believe that he is shown the door. Does that sound like a communist dictatorship?

Father Joe Young hasn’t had a problem??

 

[why_me]

Not much. The laws allowing only celibate men to be ordained in the Latin Catholic Church, with some exceptions, are not doctrine. Anyone can propose that the law be changed, as long as they’re willing to live with disappointment.

Hardly. There are archbishops who have done this who weren’t “shown the door.”

And if they keep advocating it, they will be shown the door. And if any priest gives a prochoice homily, he will be shown the door.

 

[why_me]

And I might that those priests who were advocating liberation theology in latin america will also censored by the church.

 

[aspirant]

And if they keep advocating it, they will be shown the door.

Actually, no. that’s the point. There have been priests and bishops who advocated changing canon law for the Latin Church regarding celibacy for many years and were never penalized in any way. It’s not a doctrinal matter. Anyone may advocate changing the law.

 

[averagejoe84]

And if they keep advocating it, they will be shown the door. And if any priest gives a prochoice homily, he will be shown the door.

I don’t think that’s true. In parts of europe the Catholic population is well known as voting mostly for left of centre parties who are always pro-choice. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion and indeed the debate should be about the legitimate role of the state in the lives of the citizenry.

 

[Answersplease]

(color and emphasis added)

Read the full interview for Margaret Toscano:
pbs.org/mormons/interviews/toscano.html
**
Margaret Toscano is a classics professor at the University of Utah who was excommunicated in 2000 for writing about the role of women in Mormonism.**

I was excommunicated in the year 2000. I was actually threatened with excommunication seven years before, which would be 1993, which was the famous September Six [the excommunication and disfellowshipping of six Mormon academics] and all of that. I was one of the first to be threatened with excommunications in the summer of 1993. … I received a letter from my stake president at the time. In this letter, I was told that I was not allowed to speak, discuss, publish, write about anything to do with church history or church doctrine or they would hold a court on me. Those things that they had asked me not to speak about were women in the priesthood and the Mormon idea or the Mormon concept of the Heavenly Mother. …

Read the full interview for Margaret Toscano:
pbs.org/mormons/interviews/toscano.html

They brought the charges against me – this apostasy – saying that I had been in opposition to the church, and then proceeded to give their case, very seldom letting me respond to anything. And this was one of the reasons why it felt very much like a kangaroo court to me, was that I really was never given a chance to defend myself. At one point the stake president was saying that all I had written about women in the priesthood was really wrong, and I tried to come in to defend myself doctrinally by quoting Joseph Smith and by using argument and reason.

I gave the example of blacks in the priesthood. … In the middle of the sentence, the stake president interrupted me, and he said: “We will not allow you to lecture us. We will not allow you to use this kind of reasoning again. You’re only allowed to speak as we give you permission.” And of course I just kind of stopped midsentence.

 

[why_me]

I don’t think that’s true. In parts of europe the Catholic population is well known as voting mostly for left of centre parties who are always pro-choice. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion and indeed the debate should be about the legitimate role of the state in the lives of the citizenry.

Prochoice is actually proabortion since it allows women to choose freely to have an abortion. No priest can advice women to be prochoice. The must be prolife. A prochoice priest would be an oxymoron.

 

[why_me]

Actually, no. that’s the point. There have been priests and bishops who advocated changing canon law for the Latin Church regarding celibacy for many years and were never penalized in any way. It’s not a doctrinal matter. Anyone may advocate changing the law.

I am sure that there has been debate from the inside about it. But any priest who advocates an end of celibacy from the pulpit and criticises the pope and then goes on to marry will be shown the door.