The Mormon Temple Ceremony

[why_me]

Yes. he came up with the LDS ceremony after going thru the Masonic one

Not quite. Many mormons were masons and they would have seen a rip off a mile away. I have addressed this issue many times on this forum but the same old same old is used over and over. However, I will again post information about it.

en.fairmormon.org/Temples/Endowment/Freemasonry

Of course, I will not pretend that this information will ever be taken into consideration by other catholic posters but, maybe there is hope that one will read it and think about it.

 

[why_me]

I have sometimes wondered if I would still be a “True Believing Mormon” had it not been for the evolution of LDS temple ordinances.

I think that these two articles address that issue:

lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/temple_changes.htm

fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Can_Temple_Ceremonies_Change.pdf

It has been years since I have been in a mormon temple. But I never considered the symbolism that important. The message was more important than the symbolisms. And I think that the message is the same.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Not quite.

Yes…quite

 

[scipio337]

Not quite. Many mormons were masons and they would have seen a rip off a mile away. I have addressed this issue many times on this forum but the same old same old is used over and over. However, I will again post information about it.

en.fairmormon.org/Temples/Endowment/Freemasonry

Of course, I will not pretend that this information will ever be taken into consideration by other catholic posters but, maybe there is hope that one will read it and think about it.

I’m not sure why you linked to that site, it doesn’t provide any valuable information:

One of the strongest evidences that Joseph Smith did not plagiarize Masonic sources in order to ‘create’ the LDS temple endowment is that 20th and 21st century scholarship has greatly clarified the picture of initiation rites in the biblical and early Christian periods…

With no link or supporting documentation, at all. Its a blatant bare assertion fallacy.

I would say the mere fact that the LDS Endowment ceremony closely resembles the Mason ceremony, which dates waaaaaay back to the 1700’s, is proof that these were not “Lost Biblical” ordinances.

 

[twopekinguys]

Bravo Sir! You have hit the nail of my inevitable conversion out of Mormonism into Catholicism square on its causal head! Or you’ve at least identified that initial epiphany that got the ball rolling. You see, I grew up with pretty open Mormon parents. They never really sugar coated our history; never tried to give silly apologies for certain LDS teachings that were unpopular in larger society and/or completely disavowed by the church later on. I was taught at a young age how there was once a priesthood ban against those of African ancestry and that was changed at the whim of a revelation. My mother confided in me that it was her personal opinion that Brigham Young let his racism get in the way of some of his pronouncements. I was told about Mountain Meadows, that my own family’s practice of polygamy caused some pretty deep emotional issues for female ancestors of mine, and that some of our prophets held some pretty whacky cosmological views of the universe. I was freely taught about Heavenly Mother prior to my baptism, even. So all in all I was actually far better equipped than most of my Mormon friends my age to deal with criticism and to assuage any bit of cognitive dissonance that would arise from learning about the less flattering parts of Mormonism and Mormon history.

The one exception was temple ordinance alterations. I like so many others was taught that the ordinances were not to be monkeyed around with and (most importantly) that the prime cause (or was it effect?) of the loss of priesthood authority indicative of the alleged Great Apostasy was that them evil Catholics “changed the unchangeable ordinances of God”. So naturally when I learned that the Endowment I had taken out in 2004 was different than the Endowment that my father had taken out in 1972, and in turn was starkly different than the one taken out by my grandfather in 1940, it really got me to not only rethink my testimony, but to also finally give traditional Christianity an unbiased look without my Mormon rose-colored spectacles. You see, with the LDS claim that ordinances are completely inviolable now tossed into the garbage I could no longer justify my disdain for Catholics/Orthodox allegedly “changing the ordinances” by baptizing infants, demanding celibacy of clerics, or changing the manner and means by which the sacraments are administered. In turn, with these canards gone with the wind, belief in the Great Apostasy was, too, pretty tenuous.

I have sometimes wondered if I would still be a “True Believing Mormon” had it not been for the evolution of LDS temple ordinances.

Thanks, I’m glad I got it. Do I get a prize?

You echo something I hear so much from ex mormons, and that is they studied their way out. The clincher always seems to be all of the different contradictions that nobody in authority of the church wants to address. Or can’t address.

 

[Chris-WA]

Here is one mormon explanation:

Question

Latter-day Saints believe that the Temple endowment is an eternal ordinance that Joseph Smith received by revelation from God. Why, then, have changes been made to it several times since it was first revealed?

Response

God’s directives and how He deals with His people may vary according to His people’s understanding and needs. God doesn’t tell everyone to build an ark and wait for a flood. Changes sometimes occur as a result of God dealing with His children according to their changing circumstances.

What circumstances changed that God felt He had to remove the more dubious parts of the endowment ceremony? Was it that too many people felt ill after having to draw their thumbs across their necks demonstrating what would happen to them if they revealed the endowment ceremony to the outside world?

We know that major changes in practices took place during Christ’s ministry. Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and practices associated with that law were no longer necessary…Following Jesus Christ’s mortal ministry the practice of circumcision also became unnecessary (Acts 15, Galatians 6:15). Changes in the Church are sometimes necessary. Such changes, however, must be done by inspiration or revelation from the head of the Church, who is Jesus Christ.

Oh, so God revealed to the LDS church to stop mimicking the slitting of throats or ridiculing of other faiths in the temple?

There are absolute truths and relative truths. Absolute truths (such as: God lives and Jesus is the Christ) do not change. Relative truths or practices (such as: circumcision, plural marriage, and age of priesthood ordination) do change…As additional truths are revealed, our understanding of previous revelation is modified to accommodate additional light.

Now we have two kinds of truths–absolute and relative. Which one is the Book of Mormon? Which one is the Pearl of Great Price? Which one is Doctrine and Covenants? What the above paragraph is really saying is that the Mormon Church has a license to change whatever it wants whenever it wants in order to suit the current circumstances, but it’s still *truth, *even when it’s not.

That the temple ceremonies have undergone ocassional changes, improvements, and refinements, should cause no concern since…the “work of salvation for the dead came to the Prophet [Joseph Smith] like every other doctrine — piecemeal. It was not revealed all at once.”[1]

Doesn’t make sense in the context of temple ceremonies. Deleting certain parts indicates that something was wrong to begin with, i.e., that those parts were not inspired. How could that happen? The answer is simple. The temple ceremonies are not inspired at all, but are variations of masonic ceremonies invented by man.

Brigham Young gave a brief definition of the endowment and thereby identified some of its essential elements. He said,

“Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you…to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.” [2]

What do key words and signs and tokens have to do with getting into heaven? Does that sound like Christ to you? Signs and tokens have nothing to do with our eternal destiny. It’s nonsense.

On 4 May 1842, after President Joseph Smith gave the first Nauvoo-era endowment to a small group of Latter-day Saints he told apostle Brigham Young that because of their limited spacial circumstances the overall experience was “not arranged perfectly” and he wanted Brigham to “organize and systematize” the ceremonies. This indicates there were some presentational modifications allowable in the rites while still preserving the core elements of the experience.

So the signing of slitting one’s own throat was a “presentational modification.” How nicely and neatly stated.

Harold B. Lee emphasized that the means by which the endowment and its message are presented are subject to modification

Sometimes our people who go through the temples are a bit startled because of the varied ways in which the endowment is presented.

No kidding.

Perhaps, as under inspiration they studied the nature of the endowment, they thought to make it a little more meaningful to the patrons who would come: part by dramatization, part by question and answer, part by lecture,…But it is the same message that was given by lecture by the Prophet Joseph Smith in his office over [his] store. Now, when we have that in mind, we will see why the Prophet, in the beginning of this dispensation, gave certain instructions to have the brethren stimulated in their thinking.[3]

Having to mimick my own violent death if I failed to uphold my oath would sure stimulate my thinking.

For momons it is no big deal that changes ocur. And it has nothing to do with what TomMore suggested at the end of his post.

Actually, it’s one of many reasons that Mormons who have the courage to objectively study their own religion end up leaving.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Thanks, I’m glad I got it. Do I get a prize?

Yup. Respect, admiration, and a corny smile

You echo something I hear so much from ex mormons, and that is they studied their way out. The clincher always seems to be all of the different contradictions that nobody in authority of the church wants to address. Or can’t address.

Get out of my mind. You’re creepin me out!

May I ask, are you a former LDS also? I’ve followed some of your posts and you seem to be quite knowledgeable, and you show no signs of having acquired such knowledge from reading anti-Mormon “apologetics” (if such screeds can even be called apologetic).

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I think that these two articles address that issue:

lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/temple_changes.htm

fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Can_Temple_Ceremonies_Change.pdf

It has been years since I have been in a mormon temple. But I never considered the symbolism that important. The message was more important than the symbolisms. And I think that the message is the same.

I’m briefly skimming these, thanks for posting them WhyMe. But in all honesty they (so far) aren’t addressing my initial concerns. It’s not so much that the LDS have changed their temple rites, it’s that Mormons so often point to supposed changes in Catholic and Orthodox rites as either the cause of the alleged Great Apostasy or ample indication that such an apostasy has occurred.

If changing rites either causes or indicates apostasy, how can the LDS church be exempt from this? Isn’t it much more parsimonious to conclude that the Catholic/Orthodox Church has always had the God given prerogative to change these “ordinances” by virtue of the keys to bind and loose?

What I’m saying is, even if we humor the idea that infant baptism, clerical celibacy, and icon/relic veneration, for example, are indeed all novel and not found in the Apostolic faith, if Jesus grants your church the power to change these with the changing culture and social normative symbology, wouldn’t it follow that the Catholic Church had this power all along?

This is what brought me to rethink my membership in the LDS Church.

 

[LoyalViews]

The temple ceremony is further proof that the LDS is not led by God

Yep. And mind that Joseph Smith had like a billion wives. Which is forbidden by God. Also, I am beginning to think that his “visions” were drug-induced.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

One of the strongest evidences that Joseph Smith did not plagiarize Masonic sources in order to ‘create’ the LDS temple endowment is that 20th and 21st century scholarship has greatly clarified the picture of initiation rites in the biblical and early Christian periods…

Where is this quoted part from? Is it from this thread or from one of WhyMe’s links? I can’t seem to find it.

In any case, this quote confuses me a bit as what I’ve learned in the secular courses about early Christianity I took as an undergrad seemed to indicate the exact opposite. Scholarship from the 20th century, especially finds such as the Didache, show absolutely no sign of any proto-Mormon practices, and indeed these “initiation rites” spoken of nearly mirror rites of baptism and chrismation found in what such secular scholars would call the “proto-Orthodox”.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Thanks, I’m glad I got it. Do I get a prize?

You echo something I hear so much from ex mormons, and that is they studied their way out. The clincher always seems to be all of the different contradictions that nobody in authority of the church wants to address. Or can’t address.

I’ll give you a prize!!

 

[twopekinguys]

Get out of my mind. You’re creepin me out!

Get out!! The call is coming from inside the house.

May I ask, are you a former LDS also? I’ve followed some of your posts and you seem to be quite knowledgeable, and you show no signs of having acquired such knowledge from reading anti-Mormon “apologetics” (if such screeds can even be called apologetic).

I have been alot of things in my life, but mormon is not one of them… (Thank you JESUS!!)

I have a cousin who is inactive lds, and her daughter sent her resignation letter in just a few months ago.

I did attend a mormon service many years ago, while I was in the military (1976), but to be honest, the only thing I remember was that is was noisy. That, and I was hung over.

I try to be objective in research, and purposely stay away from websites that seem to have a clear bias. (i.e. fair, and exmormon.com) Some websites bias isn’t always readily visible, so I try to check more than one source.

But thank you for the compliment.

 

[MelanieAnne]

get out!! The call is coming from inside the house.

I have been alot of things in my life, but mormon is not one of them… (thank you jesus!!)

i have a cousin who is inactive lds, and her daughter sent her resignation letter in just a few months ago.

I did attend a mormon service many years ago, while i was in the military (1976), but to be honest, the only thing i remember was that is was noisy. That, and i was hung over.

I try to be objective in research, and purposely stay away from websites that seem to have a clear bias. (i.e. Fair, and exmormon.com) some websites bias isn’t always readily visible, so i try to check more than one source.

But thank you for the compliment.

double prize!

 

[PaulDupre]

I have a cousin who is inactive lds, and her daughter sent her resignation letter in just a few months ago.

Praise God!

 

[twopekinguys]

Praise God!

Yeah, it’s a happy moment for both of us.

I’m not pushing her toward any church on her right now. I’m just there listening and being supportive. She knows that I head up the RCIA in our parish, so I leave it at that.

We have such a variety of religions in our family, at this point, I’ll just be thrilled if she doesn’t become an atheist like so many who leave mormonism do.

 

[twopekinguys]

double prize!

I hope it’s a stuffed animal!!!

 

[MelanieAnne]

I hope it’s a stuffed animal!!!

I can handle that! I hope it’s something I can KNIT!

Hugs, m

 

[twopekinguys]

I can handle that! I hope it’s something I can KNIT!

Hugs, m

Funny you should mention knitting.

I volunteer at the Federal prison we have here in our community, teaching a Bible study, RCIA, and a Rosary group.

The lady inmates I deal with are some of the most talented knitters I have ever seen in my life. Baby blankets, scarfs, sweaters, animals, you name it.

Many of the items knitted are donated to the Church for the Elizabeth Ministry, and our annual bazaar.

I love volunteering out there.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Funny you should mention knitting.

I volunteer at the Federal prison we have here in our community, teaching a Bible study, RCIA, and a Rosary group.

The lady inmates I deal with are some of the most talented knitters I have ever seen in my life. Baby blankets, scarfs, sweaters, animals, you name it.

Many of the items knitted are donated to the Church for the Elizabeth Ministry, and our annual bazaar.

I love volunteering out there.

I do a lot of that, just not necessarily in the ministries you name.

But knitting is good. It joins one thing to another thing and makes a useful thing as a result. Usually

 

[why_me]

I’m briefly skimming these, thanks for posting them WhyMe. But in all honesty they (so far) aren’t addressing my initial concerns. It’s not so much that the LDS have changed their temple rites, it’s that Mormons so often point to supposed changes in Catholic and Orthodox rites as either the cause of the alleged Great Apostasy or ample indication that such an apostasy has occurred.

This is not exactly true. The apostacy was not defined in one area. It was rather defined as a general apostacy or a great apostacy which would mean wide ranging and an accumulation of many factors. Changes in rites such as what happened in vatican II was never considered. But the histoy of christianity up to 1820 was. And as you know, the first sign was with martin luther who mormons claim was on the right track but the time for a restoration was not quite right, especially in europe which was confirmed by the religious wars which engulfed catholics and protestants in untold bloodshed during the reformation.

I think that it is great that you have found a home in the catholic church. But I will need to respond to points about the lds church and its members that I don’t agree with you about.