The most baffling mystery of all

[warpspeedpetey]

. If these nebulous entities are supposed to be able to affect us physically, then they can be observed, measured and predicted. … If they cannot be measured and exained, then they are not there.

how do you know this is true?

i dont think you do, the claim is belied by the march of science. for most of history, we couldnt detect wavelengths beyond our sensory ability, we couldnt detect subatomic particles, neutrinos, et al. they could not be measured at one point and they are most definitely there.

how about dark matter and energy, there is little evidence of them, yet a great many scientists believe they exist.

what you are claiming here doesnt comport with the practice of science.

so the idea that anything interacting with the physical universe must have observable physical properties itself is little more than a bald assertion based on previous induction.

you do not know this to actually be the case.

 

[Cristian_B]

Murder is a special form or subset of killing. Killing is wholly natural. Some types of murder can be classified as irrational. But that does not point to some invisible force exerting influence on our behavior.

Not always, and Christians never claimed that to be true. As far as I know, there can be two sources of evil or temptation: external and internal. It is external when Satan or his angels tempt us and it is internal when our own lusts and desires like revenge, coveting, etc. make their way into our minds. Those can be originated by Satan but not always. Not all evil comes from Satan, though there is part that does come from him. I believe that a greater enemy than Satan is you. Yes, you. You selfish and rebellious nature.

So there is not always and external force that provokes us to do evil, but there are internal as well, lusts and desires produced by your own flesh.

 

[R_Daneel]

i dont think you do, the claim is belied by the march of science. for most of history, we couldnt detect wavelengths beyond our sensory ability, we couldnt detect subatomic particles, neutrinos, et al. they could not be measured at one point and they are most definitely there.

As usual, you misunderstand me. The detection I am speaking of does not refer to our current devices. It refers to the inherent impossibility to detect something, not just now, but even in principle.

how about dark matter and energy, there is little evidence of them, yet a great many scientists believe they exist.

So what? Many people can believe in a multiverse, but since it cannot be detected, it cannot affect us, it does not matter if this assumption is true or not. For all practical purposes “it is not there”. Observe the quotation marks.

so the idea that anything interacting with the physical universe must have observable physical properties itself is little more than a bald assertion based on previous induction.

Show me how something non-physical can affect the physical.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

As usual, you misunderstand me. The detection I am speaking of does not refer to our current devices. It refers to the inherent impossibility to detect something, not just now, but even in principle.

and how do you know its inherently impossible? what logical contradiction makes it so?

So what? Many people can believe in a multiverse, but since it cannot be detected, it cannot affect us, it does not matter if this assumption is true or not. For all practical purposes “it is not there”. Observe the quotation marks.

dark matter and energy do affect our universe and therefore us. assuming they actually exist.

Show me how something non-physical can affect the physical.

easily done. free will.

 

[R_Daneel]

and how do you know its inherently impossible? what logical contradiction makes it so?

Oh, you poor sucker. It is not my claim, it is yours! You believers claim that God cannot be “tested”… and you are unaware even of that?

easily done. free will.

You cannot even prove that free will actually exists, much less that it is not physical.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Oh, you poor sucker. It is not my claim, it is yours! You believers claim that God cannot be “tested”… and you are unaware even of that?

you didnt answer the question. how do you know its inherently impossible?

You cannot even prove that free will actually exists, much less that it is not physical.

easily done. free will is incompatible with both a deterministic and indeterministic physical universe.

if its deterministic and free will is an illusion. then that points to a designed universe as every state of the system must be accounted for in all the previous states of a system. as you are aware, if we know the starting state of a system, we can predict the state of the system at any point. ergo, the starting state must be designed to produce all these trillions of free will decisions humanity makes every hour.

obvious evidence of design

if its an indeterministic universe and free will is an illusion, than that makes the trillions of coherent free will decisions made every hour, completely random and still coherent. completely violating the PSR.

occam says the most persimonious conclusion is that we simply have free will.