The most damaging innovation to Catholic parishes in the last 50 years...

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ConstantineTG said:
What’s the single most damaging innovation to Catholic churches over the last 50 years?

It’s not the removal of altar rails or the electric vigil candles, or the fancy felt banners that hang from the ceiling. Guess again.

It’s the “crying room.”

patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Crying-Shame-Greg-Kandra-08-03-2011.html
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I have to disagree with the deacon. My church has a small, simple cry room, and it works. Parents take their crying kids there, they quiet down, and they return to mass. I can’t concentrate on mass when I hear a baby crying just as much as I can’t concentrate on mass when a disrespectful group of people decide to carry on a conversation. It’s distracting. Conversely, I’m not saying that crying infants are disrespectful. It’s natural, and it’s going to happen. But there’s nothing wrong with parents taking their children out of mass who, for whatever reason, make lots of noise. I certainly wouldn’t call cry rooms the most damaging innovation in Catholic churches over the last 50 years.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I have to disagree with the deacon. My church has a small, simple cry room, and it works. Parents take their crying kids there, they quiet down, and they return to mass. I can’t concentrate on mass when I hear a baby crying just as much as I can’t concentrate on mass when a disrespectful group of people decide to carry on a conversation. It’s distracting. Conversely, I’m not saying that crying infants are disrespectful. It’s natural, and it’s going to happen. But there’s nothing wrong with parents taking their children out of mass who, for whatever reason, make lots of noise. I certainly wouldn’t call cry rooms the most damaging innovation in Catholic churches over the last 50 years.
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And I think this is the problem the deacon is telling us. Why do we think kids being kids is a problem during Mass? I had a very traditional OF priest, the kind who tells us to kneel during the Nicene Creed at the part of the Incarnation during Advent, Christmas, Lent and Easter, the kind who during pre-marriage counselling will refuse to marry the couple if he found out they will not adhere to Catholic preconditions such as openness to life. And he has absolutely no problem with kids. He said if kids start making noise when he’s saying the Mass, he’ll just speak louder. This is the priest who’ll rain fire and brimstone during his homilies about people who do not follow the teachings of the Church, such as habitually missing Mass.
 
Just because it’s natural doesn’t mean it isn’t polite to take the poor child somewhere they can be calmed and quieted. I see a cry room as just as much for the infant as for the others. it’s easier for a mom to calm her child in private
 
I agree with the deacon. Of course, we need to use common sense. If the baby needs its diaper changed, for example, let the parent take the child to a bathroom and change it. But in general the Mass should be a family affair, crying babies and all.
 
ConstantineTG said:
And I think this is the problem the deacon is telling us. Why do we think kids being kids is a problem during Mass? I had a very traditional OF priest, the kind who tells us to kneel during the Nicene Creed at the part of the Incarnation during Advent, Christmas, Lent and Easter, the kind who during pre-marriage counselling will refuse to marry the couple if he found out they will not adhere to Catholic preconditions such as openness to life. And he has absolutely no problem with kids. He said if kids start making noise when he’s saying the Mass, he’ll just speak louder. This is the priest who’ll rain fire and brimstone during his homilies about people who do not follow the teachings of the Church, such as habitually missing Mass.
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I understand his stance that we should celebrate our “humanity,” our “oneness,” but I don’t feel that humanity or that oneness when I hear a screaming kid! In fact, that kind of stuff just makes me feel even more apart from the mass and from everyone else. I come to the mass to pray and to worship God. Babies are humans, and they are entitled to come to mass like anyone else is. But, like anyone else, they have to–or rather their parents have to moderate them, through taking them away from others trying to participate–remain quiet. I’m not some kid hater. I’m young myself.
 
Wow, I usually sit in the cry room because I’m hyperactive and I often have to tell parents to relax when their little kids start gabbing or running around. The parents are generally very jumpy about disrupting Mass, even in the cry room. I can handle the distraction–I can play the piano and read the newspaper so multi-tasking is no problem. I try to smile at them and make them feel welcome. I think it takes a load off parents’ minds to have a cry room.

I attend a Spanish Mass and the kids are a little more welcome as to noise level and wandering off with nobody getting too jumpy. There’s no cry room as it is an older church. I did go to a non-Catholic service once and do have to say the lack of any kid sounds whatsoever made my skin crawl. Just didn’t have the wee ones Catholics do. So I can appreciate the deacon’s point of view. But some people go nuts when kids start crying.

I think the most damaging innovation is the separate service for kids. Ugh. Kids need to be snuggling their parents during Mass, the best means of imparting the love Gospel to the pre-literate bunch. And kids are very well informed. During a crowded Christmas Mass, there were little kids in the aisles drawing pictures of Baby Jesus in the manger with Joseph and Mary. That beats the heck out of getting segregated in a separate service. But the cry room is an option that I know parents and many people appreciate.
 
I’d have to disagree here, your not banishing the babies to a “spiritual time out corner” your giving them and their parents an area of the church were their needs may be met; it is an act of charity. Let’s say the baby in question has “soiled itself’ and the parents have to change the diaper, well you can’t exactly do that in the middle of the pews… What if a mother wants to breastfeed her child? She might not feel all to comfortable doing in the middle of a public building, or at the Mass. What if the baby is crying? The baby might be feeling a tad uncomfortable or want attention, it might distract other parishioners or the priest (it could lead to who know what…), and the mother may want to nurse her child. Again she might want to do this in a (semi)private location not in the middle of the church. The “crying room” gives the parents and child a place to do the aforementioned (and possibly much more, I don’t know that much about taking care of infants) within the church, and far from being a form of time out it gives them an opportunity to take care of the immediate needs of the child within the church.

On the other hand I can think of other “innovations” which could easily qualify as “the most damaging”:

The removal of altar rails or roods; as the rail/rood helps demonstrate the different roles of the lay folk and clergy in the Church.

The repositioning of the Tabernacle from the center of the church to some side location; attention at Mass is no longer directed towards God on the Altar (for He is somewhere to the side) but instead to the men in the sanctuary (which is no longer even clearly defined).

The stripping of the traditional Altars/ introduction of the “altar table”; similar tactics were used by Cromwell, Cranmer and other reformers to destroy the belief that the Mass is a Sacrifice, but instead primarily a supper. The traditional altars were most reverent, and full of pomp worthy of god’s worship. People are greatly moved by works of art including that which once formed the altar; it helped inspire piety.

The introduction of the table from which the priest stands behind invokes the sentiment of a communal meal in which we all share, not the Sacrifice of God upon the Altar. Following the principal of “Lex orandi, lex credenda”, the faithful will come to see the Mass as being such; it sends across the wrong impression.

The silly banners, and modernistic/ semi- childlike art; along with a great deal of the sit around the sanctuary with guitars sentiment, I’m telling you as a teen myself it really (while being OK for young kids) doesn’t inspire reverence in the youth, far from it we often see it as somewhat embarrassing and a bit of a put- off.

To name but a few.
 
In the Philippines there are no cry room. I grew up without a cry room. Me and millions of Filipino Catholics didn’t have these problems you have been describing.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
I agree with the deacon. Of course, we need to use common sense. If the baby needs its diaper changed, for example, let the parent take the child to a bathroom and change it. But in general the Mass should be a family affair, crying babies and all.
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I always thought the Mass was the Perfect Sacrifice of Christ to the Father for the remission of our sins, a time when we who have attained reason unite our prayers with and meditate upon the mysteries of the Eucharist. A time when we concentrate solely upon god with as much piety, and as little distraction as humanly possible… silly me. :rolleyes:
 
Crusading_Canuk said:
I always thought the Mass was the Perfect Sacrifice of Christ to the Father for the remission of our sins, a time when we who have attained reason unite our prayers with and meditate upon the mysteries of the Eucharist. A time when we concentrate solely upon god with as much piety, and as little distraction as humanly possible… silly me. :rolleyes:
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Why is it only for those who has attained reason? Can you show me a teaching by the Church that says that the Mass is only for those who have attained reason? Why do we want to exclude children from the Mass?
 
ConstantineTG said:
What’s the single most damaging innovation to Catholic churches over the last 50 years?

It’s not the removal of altar rails or the electric vigil candles, or the fancy felt banners that hang from the ceiling. Guess again.

It’s the “crying room.”

patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Crying-Shame-Greg-Kandra-08-03-2011.html
Click to expand...
While I agree that cry rooms are unnecessary (I don’t use them, and I do have a large, young family), they are by far “the most damaging innovation”. What damage could a cry room do if the a enormous portion of the parishioners are now attending some Mormon or Evangelical church… or no church at all. I feel, the “single most damaging innovation” is ecumenism and the belief that “even those who are outside the Church have a certitude that they are saved, if they are of a good moral standing”; while I wouldn’t be able to guess, the chances are certainly, and logically slim in these cases. It feel, people have made invincible ignorance the rule, rather then the exception to the rule.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Why is it only for those who has attained reason? Can you show me a teaching by the Church that says that the Mass is only for those who have attained reason? Why do we want to exclude children from the Mass?
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The same reason we “exclude” them from fasting and abstinence until they have reached a certain age; true it’s great for their souls if they can do it, but really should they? In any case they are not held to the Sunday obligation until they have reached the age of either five or seven (I think it is the latter), but it’s great if their family brings them as soon as possible. Nobody is even suggesting that they not be allowed to attend Mass, only out of charity and courtesy for all involved (including the baby) they be given a little room in the church for their special needs.
 
Okay, I’m going out on a limb here and I will say what I have been thinking about when I read this article. But this concept and idea of cry rooms comes from the same attitude that brought us contraceptives and abortions. Yes, we always tend to see children as inconveniences. People want the pleasures of sex but not the responsibility of child rearing, contraceptives. Ooops, thats not 100%, abortions. Just recently, even restaurants want to prevent young children from dining newsfeed.time.com/2011/07/12/no-small-fries-restaurant-bans-kids-under-six-years-old/ . And again my question, why are we so afraid of children? Why do we see them as inconveniences? As Catholics we always say a new life is a gift, that is why we defend them from the womb. But why do we act as if we abhor them just a few years removed from the womb? “See me again when you’re 10 and can behave.” Is that the right attitude? Why are we acting selfishly in our own desire to connect with God? Its an oxymoron! “I want my own private prayer time in a public place so I can connect with God. Therefore I want all children driven away into their own little room even though in Scripture Jesus said to let all the children come to him.” I notice those who are for the crying rooms have a lot of “I” in their statement. Should our focus be more on others than ourselves? Besides, children are innocent, and innocence is saintly, therefore the children are saints. They are part of the communion of saints, we cannot be part of that communion if we are not in communion with one another, and that includes the children.
 
Crusading_Canuk said:
The same reason we “exclude” them from fasting and abstinence until they have reached a certain age; true it’s great for their souls if they can do it, but really should they? In any case they are not held to the Sunday obligation until they have reached the age of either five or seven (I think it is the latter), but it’s great if their family brings them as soon as possible. Nobody is even suggesting that they not be allowed to attend Mass, only out of charity and courtesy for all involved (including the baby) they be given a little room in the church for their special needs.
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We exclude them from fasting and abstinence because they do not need it. Because they are innocent, therefore they are sinless. What value does fasting have for those who are not attached to worldliness by virtue of their innocence?

And how about charity and courtesy towards the children themselves? It seems the adults here are being considered but not the children. Its like they don’t have rights themselves.
 
ConstantineTG said:
We exclude them from fasting and abstinence because they do not need it. Because they are innocent, therefore they are sinless. What value does fasting have for those who are not attached to worldliness by virtue of their innocence?

And how about charity and courtesy towards the children themselves? It seems the adults here are being considered but not the children. Its like they don’t have rights themselves.
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Children are sinless? Wow.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Okay, I’m going out on a limb here and I will say what I have been thinking about when I read this article. But this concept and idea of cry rooms comes from the same attitude that brought us contraceptives and abortions. Yes, we always tend to see children as inconveniences. People want the pleasures of sex but not the responsibility of child rearing, contraceptives. Ooops, thats not 100%, abortions. Just recently, even restaurants want to prevent young children from dining newsfeed.time.com/2011/07/12/no-small-fries-restaurant-bans-kids-under-six-years-old/ . And again my question, why are we so afraid of children? Why do we see them as inconveniences? As Catholics we always say a new life is a gift, that is why we defend them from the womb. But why do we act as if we abhor them just a few years removed from the womb? “See me again when you’re 10 and can behave.” Is that the right attitude? Why are we acting selfishly in our own desire to connect with God? Its an oxymoron! “I want my own private prayer time in a public place so I can connect with God. Therefore I want all children driven away into their own little room even though in Scripture Jesus said to let all the children come to him.” I notice those who are for the crying rooms have a lot of “I” in their statement. Should our focus be more on others than ourselves? Besides, children are innocent, and innocence is saintly, therefore the children are saints. They are part of the communion of saints, we cannot be part of that communion if we are not in communion with one another, and that includes the children.
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Really? In that analogy the carnal pleasures of the body are bring compared to the Mass, and a desire for reverence to wilful murder, blasphemy! The desire for contraception and abortion are born from the ideas of false liberty, that we are the primary owners of our own body (and all within it) instead of God. The belief that we are absolute masters of this world. The desire for peace, quiet and reverence at Mass is born out of love and submission to God; how can the two be compared?

Again nobody is kicking kids out of the Church, just providing them with a location where their needs can be met!
 
ConstantineTG said:
And how about charity and courtesy towards the children themselves? It seems the adults here are being considered but not the children. Its like they don’t have rights themselves.
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How would you feel as an adult if you suddenly soiled yourself in the middle of Church? And you talk of “charity and courtesy”?
 
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