The Most High himself hates sinners

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Sirach 12:7
The Most High himself hates sinners, and upon the wicked he takes vengeance.
This verse is like a thorn in my side. I just can’t work it out. I thought God loves his enemies, and I thought he loves sinners. What about that whole “Hate the sin, love the sinner” phrase? Can anyone help me out on this one?

Many thanks.
 
Sirach 12:7

This verse is like a thorn in my side. I just can’t work it out. I thought God loves his enemies, and I thought he loves sinners. What about that whole “Hate the sin, love the sinner” phrase? Can anyone help me out on this one?

Many thanks.
Certainly God ‘hates’ sinners in their sinfulness, but not in their persons which are made in His own image. Their sinfulness is directly opposed to His goodness, but He seeks to overcome that opposition, to ‘avenge’ it and change them. “Is it My will that the sinner should die, or rather that he should be converted and live?” Ez. 18:23
 
“Love the sinner, hate the sin”

Its trumpeted continually in Christian circles. When I hear a Christian say this I ask them “Which gospel was that in?” Sometimes they will have a stab at answering or they will say “I’m not sure”. I have yet to find one person who denied that it is in the scripture.

In fact it was said by Hindu religious leader and activist Mahatma Gandhi.

Its an erroneus principle for a Christian to advance. God throws sinners into hell, not sins.

In the scripture it actually states “Joshua I have loved and Esau I have hated” Romans 9

As children of a loving God who sends his good rain upon the wicked and the good, we show forth his goodness when we look for the good in every man and do good to them, showing love, blessing our enemies and even to those who are despicable and sinful. We also do not know whether that wicked man may in the future repent and be considered among the children of God like ourselves.

This speaks of a kind of maturing of sin. God did not give Abraham the land of his inheritance for 400 years because the sins of the Amorites were not yet full. So at some point a man’s wickedness and evil becomes fully hateful and then God rises up in his indignation and wrath to crush the wicked.

But only God can judge when this maturing of sin comes. Only he knows when the time of judgement is come. Until then we live in the days of mercy and so must show forth mercy and forbearance. (And towards those who are in the church, sometimes discipline)
 
Sirach 12:7

This verse is like a thorn in my side. I just can’t work it out. I thought God loves his enemies, and I thought he loves sinners. What about that whole “Hate the sin, love the sinner” phrase? Can anyone help me out on this one?

Many thanks.
Chris

I would say that, those who hate Him. Fall into this category. Consider, the Lord came to restore us into God’s Presence, by baptism in the Holy Spirit. If you refuse your Creator’s Presence with you, then it would seem that He would refuse your presence with Him.
 
Certainly God ‘hates’ sinners in their sinfulness, but not in their persons which are made in His own image. Their sinfulness is directly opposed to His goodness, but He seeks to overcome that opposition, to ‘avenge’ it and change them. “Is it My will that the sinner should die, or rather that he should be converted and live?” Ez. 18:23
And God reiterates it a little further in Ezekiel again to give even more emphasis 33: 11] :

"Answer them: As I live, says the Lord GOD, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man’s conversion, that he may live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! Why should you die, O house of Israel? "

The principle is in fact found in the Gospels ( perhaps not worded exactly as in the OP states, but still in no uncertain terms), that Christ always condemned the sin - not the sinner.

The adulteress [John 8:7] , the good thief [Luke 23:42] , the paralytic ( “your sins are forgiven you”) [Matt 9:2] and the woman who bathed our blessed Lord’s feet with her tears [Luke 7 :47-50], are all examples of sinners who Jesus did not condemn.

Saint Peter was a sinner - can we say God hated him ?

Saint Paul was a sinner - can we say God hated him ?

I’m a sinner - I really hope God doesn’t hate me ( am I feeling that thorn properly Chris S ?).

The whole reason Christ came was to take away our sins, to save us from sin and its consequences ; consequences which, without his mercy would entail eternal separation from Him.

If we should see our sin as God can, and how it mars the beauty of our soul He created, we also would find it revolting - no doubt . But no loving Confessor - ordained to minister to us with the sacrament of Reconciliation, would ever tell you it’s a good idea to hate yourself.

Therfore*** do ***make the distinction between the sin and the sinner .
 
'I have come to teach you the prayer which I made as a young girl when I was still living in the Temple. I resolutely decided in my heart that I wished to have God as father and I made up my mind to do whatever would please him, so that I might find favour in his sight. I made myself learn his law and all the commandments contained in it. In particular I committed to memory three commandments, being eager to keep them with the greatest care and with all my might. These are: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Love your neighbour as yourself. (Dt 6:5) Love your friend and hate your enemy." (Lv 19:18 and Mt 5:3) For I understood that man and angel were good, and my enemy was the devil and, insofar as he is evil, the evil man. From that love of God and neighbour, and from the fear and hatred of the enemy (that is, of the devil and sin), every fulness of grace and virtue has descended to me. That love cannot take root in the human heart unless there is there hatred of the enemy, that is, of the devil and sin.’

The Blessed Virgin to St. Elizabeth, from ‘The Revelations of St. Elizabeth of Toss’
 
“Love the sinner, hate the sin”

Its trumpeted continually in Christian circles. When I hear a Christian say this I ask them “Which gospel was that in?” Sometimes they will have a stab at answering or they will say “I’m not sure”. I have yet to find one person who denied that it is in the scripture.

In fact it was said by Hindu religious leader and activist Mahatma Gandhi.

Its an erroneus principle for a Christian to advance. God throws sinners into hell, not sins
.“Depart, you cursed…”. It seems that He does not “throw” them into hell, but that they are empowered to go there, actually an act of mercy in that in fleeing from the Goodness that they have rejected, they would be without any referencen for their persons forever, much like being forever in a sensory deprivation chamber, a circumstance more cruel than pain.
 
“Equally hateful to God are the ungodly man and his ungodliness, for what was done will be punished together with him who did it” (Wisdom 14:9-10).

“I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:11-12).

“The other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us.’ But He answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you’” (Matthew 25:11-12).

“I will warn you Whom to fear: fear Him Who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!” (Luke 12:5)

“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able” (Luke 13:24).

“If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).

In Christ,
Pete
 
Thanks for the replies. So what I’m gathering is that there are a couple other instances in Scripture besides the verse in Sirach that state that God actually hates a some people. (I’m not including the ones that talk about being thrown into Hell, as I see that as justice rather than hate).
I’m a sinner - I really hope God doesn’t hate me ( am I feeling that thorn properly Chris S ?).
Yes, this is essentially what it boils down to. I just don’t like the concept of God hating someone. But I am willing to put those feelings aside in the face of a good Catholic explanation.

Shin said:
'I have come to teach you the prayer which I made as a young girl when I was still living in the Temple. I resolutely decided in my heart that I wished to have God as father and I made up my mind to do whatever would please him, so that I might find favour in his sight. I made myself learn his law and all the commandments contained in it. In particular I committed to memory three commandments, being eager to keep them with the greatest care and with all my might. These are: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Love your neighbour as yourself. (Dt 6:5) Love your friend and hate your enemy." (Lv 19:18 and Mt 5:3) For I understood that man and angel were good, and my enemy was the devil and, insofar as he is evil, the evil man. From that love of God and neighbour, and from the fear and hatred of the enemy (that is, of the devil and sin), every fulness of grace and virtue has descended to me. That love cannot take root in the human heart unless there is there hatred of the enemy, that is, of the devil and sin.’

The Blessed Virgin to St. Elizabeth, from ‘The Revelations of St. Elizabeth of Toss’

I tried searching on Google for parts of this quotation and the only result was this thread. I also looked up the Scripture references and they didn’t make any sense. Care to expand a bit on this Shin?

Most of your answers make sense to me, but there was one specific point in my OP that I feel still needs to be dealt with, and I will state it more explicitly: How do I reconcile the hatred of God with the following passage?

Matthew 5:43ff
"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

My logic is working something like this:
  1. Sinners are enemies of God
  2. God says to love your enemies
  3. Therefore, God loves sinners
  4. Contradiction (Sirach 12.7)
Of course this only works with th premise that love and hate are mutually exclusive. I would gladly be shown to be wrong about this. I think I could handle God both loving and hating a person… somehow.

Also, isn’t hatred a fundamentally evil quality? What good is there in it? I can understand the good in punishment and justice, and I have no problem whatsoever with the existence of hell. But I always thought God loved even those people who are in hell. I just don’t get the purpose of God possessing hatred for any human being.

In Christ,

Chris
 
This is what I think God hates, when a person is of the devil.

1 John 3:8 “He that committeth (ongoing) sin is of the devil…”

🤷
 
… dug around a little and found 2 plausible Catholic explanations.

The first will require some mental gymnastics because it is tied in to reprobation which is then tied in to predestination . Online definitions of the verb reprobate abound, but I consulted my trusty little Concise Oxford Dictionary which defines reprobate as : “ ; ( of God) cast off, exclude from salvation.”

At this article newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article3 ,scroll down to Article 3. Whether God reprobates any man?

A helpful description of the two types of hatred commonly accepted by theologians is given here newadvent.org/cathen/07149b.htm. I had to conclude that if we say God hated certain people according to the second definition, we would actually be saying that God sinned.
Chris S;6693901...:
Also, isn’t hatred a fundamentally evil quality?
…
👍

The first definition however …

“*One (odium abominationis, or loathing) is that in which the intense dislike is concentrated primarily on the qualities or attributes of a person, and only secondarily, and as it were derivatively, upon the person himself *”

… When applied to ourselves stemming from, say, an examination of conscience, can be sometimes skewed into a hatred of self (which can lead to despair… so imagine , if you will, how much more despair there would be if this led us to think that God hated us ). Essentially what we are really hating, is not ourselves as a creature but what we have become or, more precisely, the bad decisions we’ve made which have brought us to that point. Wouldn’t these be proper sentiments and similar to those of the prodigal son after he had “come to his senses” ?

The second explanation is straightforward and easy to grasp : It describes the Hebrew word for hatred as commonly employed to express the Semitic sense of prefer… one person over another; one way over another. In Sirach 12, the sense seems to be to prefer the friend over the enemy, and the godly or humble man over the wicked.

americancatholic.org/Messenger/Apr2010/Wiseman.asp

And it gets right down to the same question asked about God hating humans, referring to scriptures Malachi 1:1-3 partially reiterated in Romans 9:13, “I loved Jacob but hated Esau ” ; and tackles Jesus’ own words recorded in the Gospels, including that passage in Luke 14 : “If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”

BTW Chris S, according to St. Faustina’s diary (from Day 1 of the novena to the Divine Mercy) , your view -
… But I always thought God loved even those people who are in hell. I just don’t get the purpose of God possessing hatred for any human being.
Chris
  • appears to be confirmed by our Lord’s own words, " Today bring to Me all mankind, especially all sinners, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. In this way you will console Me in the bitter grief into which the loss of souls plunges Me."
 
The quotation makes the distinction of the evil man being the enemy ‘in so far as he is evil.’

So that we hate the evil in men, and love the good. In so far as a man is evil, we hate him, in so far as a man is good we love him.

It would be unnatural and diabolical to love the evil in a man, or to love his sins.

The revelations can be read here.

On the other hand, the part of his sin that is the mere outward act, but not the moral evil, we can still love, but I am going into issues of Providence by talking about that. ‘Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence’ is a good book to read and clarifies some of it. TAN Books or Our Lady of the Rosary Library have it.

We forgive people and wish them only good, to go to Heaven, to repent, to assuage God’s justice, etc. God instructs us to do this because ‘vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord’.

Jesus Christ in His time on Earth prays and urges for forgiveness of all men. But this forgiveness and forbearance is something which ends for many when He comes in Judgement, in other words, for the unrepentant, eventually the forbearance is over and the judgement comes. (See the book of Revelation or Apocalypse).

Then the Justice of God, which men experience in their sins as anger or hatred, truly blazes forth, fulfilled completely.

Hate and anger are useful and necessary, and at times without it you are sinning by not having it. They do however, all all the rest of our interior matters, have to be properly under control, and properly oriented.

‘You that love the Lord, hate evil: the Lord preserveth the souls of his saints, he will deliver them out of the hand of the sinner.’

Psalm 96:10

“If therefore you wish to obtain that love, do as I did in the Temple in my earliest youth. For I would rise in the middle of the night and, standing before the altar with complete concentration of mind, I would ask the Lord for his grace by which I might be able to keep these commandments I have mentioned, and I would make seven petitions, one after the other, in prayer before the altar. . . The third was, that I should be able to fulfill the third commandment and that he should make me hate the enemy of the human race because from him derive vice, sin, and whatever he himself hates.”

The Blessed Virgin to St. Elizabeth, from ‘The Revelations of St. Elizabeth of Toss’

‘They [Saints Catherine and Margaret] love that which our Lord loves, and hate that which God hates.’

St. Joan of Arc

Always, O sons, have within yourselves this proper hatred to make you humble, and you will always know yourselves to be humble. It will make you patient in adversity, moderate in prosperity, fixed in all right ways, pleasing and acceptable to God and men." And she [St. Catherine] would add, “Beware, O beware, of anyone who does not have this holy hatred, for where it is missing love of self must necessarily reign, and that is the stagnant pool from which come all sins, the root cause of every evil lust.” This was the sort of thing she would say to her followers every day, to foster in them the holy hatred and to incite them to fight against self-love.’

Bl. Raymond of Capua

'The virtues are in us by nature, and there is an affinity of soul to them untaught by men and due to nature itself. For as no instructions are needed to make us hate disease, and we have a natural aversion to things which give pain, even so the soul has an untaught aversion from vice, and all vice is a disease of the soul.

And so it is not difficult for us, if we will, to conceive a love of virtue and a hatred of evil. For God has given every faculty to the natural soul for a good purpose; as that of love, so likewise that of hatred, in order that under the guidance of reason, we may love virtue and hate vice. For there is a true and good use of hatred; – Do I not hate them, O Lord, that hate Thee?’

St. Basil the Great

'It is true that highwaymen, grave-robbers, and sorcerers have their sides torn to pieces; it is also true that the martyrs undergo this same suffering. What is done is the same, but the purpose and reason why it is done is different. And so it is that there is a great difference between the criminals and martyrs.

In these cases we not only consider the torture but we first look for the intention and the reasons why the torture is inflicted. And this is why we love the martyrs - not because they are tortured but because they are tortured for the sake of Christ. But we turn our backs on the robbers - not because they are being punished but because they are being punished for their wickedness.

So, too, in the matter of fasting, you must pass a judgment. If you see people fasting for the sake of God, approve what they do; if you see that they do this against God’s will, turn your back on them and hate them more than you do those who drink, revel, and carouse. And in the case of this fasting we must inquire not only into the reason for fasting but we must consider also the place and the time.’

St. John Chrysostom
 
‘That your enemies have been created is God’s doing; that they hate you and wish to ruin you is their own doing. What should you say about them in your mind? “Lord be merciful to them, forgive them their sins, put the fear of God in them, change them!” You are loving in them not what they are, but what you would have them to become.’

St. Augustine
 
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