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DJim
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First, thanks for all the fine work you’re doing on this topic. It’s a breath of fresh air!
And second, amen on the “ex cathedra” comment!
DJim
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And second, amen on the “ex cathedra” comment!
DJim
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DJim
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Thanks for posting what has turned out to be the Athanasian Creed.
Yes, I would state that the Athanasian Creed is indeed still valid.
DJim
Yes, I would state that the Athanasian Creed is indeed still valid.
DJim
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MMLJ
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You welcome. See How simple, clear, and straightforward the Council was. I am glad we agree with the Council of Florence.
Do you now see where Pope Benedict XVI is in error?
Benedict XVI, Address, May 18, 2006: “Likewise, peace is rooted in respect for religious freedom, which is a fundamental and primordial aspect of the freedom of conscience of individuals and the freedom of peoples. It is important that everywhere in the world
every person can belong to the religion of his choice and practice it freely without fear, for no one can base his life on the quest of material being alone.”
(Yes they can but according to the Council of Florence and the Creed they will not be saved.)
VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005, Zenit News Report- Benedict XVI: “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.”
Give me a break, lacks biblical faith? My Hindu and Muslim colleagues here beside me have irritating smiles on their faces, oh and by the way they love everything you have posted so far, and say to thank you. They have said that their religious hierarchy would never say the like of the Koran or the Hindu Bhagavad Gita/Vedas.
What you and others are saying fuels the religions of Islam/Hinduism and other pagans, cults, etc. I have asked them.
Now remember, they believe that Allah is GOD and that Christ was a prophet. And since Pope Benedict XVI says they will be saved, or that you can go on and practice their own faiths, they shall, but not because Pope Benedict said so, but probably because that some have reiterated part of what they have already believed. Pope Benedict XVI comments sometimes belittle the Catholic Faith, which is what you have rightly said is the Creed. They neither think Christ is GOD nor want to have anything to do with Baptism. They say we blaspheme who believe in the triune God. Let me enlighten. Islam is the fastest growing religion and will continue to be as long as misleading/confusing/ambiguous comments are regularly being propagated.
Benedict XVI and The Council of Florence are in no way in agreement.
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DJim
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The Council adopted the battle-tested Athanasian Creed in its Decree for the Armenians. No problem with that–we agree, ultimately, with the Creed.
Not in the least.
Pope Benedict is not in error and adheres firmly to the Athanasian Creed, I’m sure.
During this address to new ambassadors, was His Holiness speaking as an exercise of the papal magisterium or was he speaking otherwise?
How does this quote differ in substance from the quite errorless teaching found in Vatican II’s Declaration on Religious Freedom, which states:
And of course this all has nothing directly to do with the Athanasian Creed…
Does the Pope really go around saying stuff and then concluding with the phrase, “says Benedict XVI”???
Another deception produced from your corrupt sources. The sentence you are attributing to the Pope was apparently written by the Zenit reporter and NOT the Pope!
I will post in a moment the full text of the Holy Father’s General Audience to prove this.
Why don’t you privately send me their e-mail addresses so I can properly tell them you’re welcome.
The Pope does NOT say “WILL” be saved. You are putting your own words in his mouth.
They are in PERFECT agreement actually.
DJim
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DJim
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BENEDICT XVI
GENERAL AUDIENCE
Wednesday, 30 November 2005
Psalm 137[136]: 1-6
“If I forget you, Jerusalem”
Evening Prayer - Tuesday of the Fourth Week
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
(snip)
Let us entrust ourselves to St Augustine for a further meditation on our Psalm. The great Father of the Church introduces a surprising and very timely note: he knows that there are also people among the inhabitants of Babylon who are committed to peace and to the good of the community, although they do not share the biblical faith; the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire is unknown to them. Within them they have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greater, for the transcendent: for true redemption.
And Augustine says that even among the persecutors, among the non-believers, there are people who possess this spark, with a sort of faith or hope, as far as is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live. With this faith, even in an unknown reality, they are truly on their way towards the true Jerusalem, towards Christ.
And with this openness of hope, Augustine also warns the “Babylonians” - as he calls them -, those who do not know Christ or even God and yet desire the unknown, the eternal, and he warns us too, not to focus merely on the material things of the present but to persevere on the journey to God. It is also only with this greater hope that we will be able to transform this world in the right way. St Augustine says so in these words:
“If we are citizens of Jerusalem… and must live in this land, in the confusion of this world and in this Babylon where we do not dwell as citizens but are held prisoner, then we should not just sing what the Psalm says but we should also live it: something that is done with a profound, heartfelt aspiration, a full and religious yearning for the eternal city”.
And he adds with regard to the “earthly city called Babylon”, that it “has in it people who, prompted by love for it, work to guarantee it peace - temporal peace - nourishing in their hearts no other hope, indeed, by placing in this one all their joy, without any other intention. And we see them making every effort to be useful to earthly society”.
“Now, if they strive to do these tasks with a pure conscience, God, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, will not let them perish within Babylon: this is on condition, however, that while living in Babylon, they do not thirst for ambition, short-lived magnificence or vexing arrogance… He sees their enslavement and will show them that other city for which they must truly long and towards which they must direct their every effort” (Esposizioni sui Salmi, 136, 1-2: Nuova Biblioteca Agostiniana, XXVIII, Rome, 1977, pp. 397, 399).
And let us pray to the Lord that in all of us this desire, this openness to God, will be reawakened, and that even those who do not know Christ may be touched by his love so that we are all together on the pilgrimage to the definitive City, and that the light of this City may appear also in our time and in our world.
GENERAL AUDIENCE
Wednesday, 30 November 2005
Psalm 137[136]: 1-6
“If I forget you, Jerusalem”
Evening Prayer - Tuesday of the Fourth Week
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
- On this first Wednesday of Advent, a liturgical season of silence, watchfulness and prayer in preparation for Christmas, let us meditate on Psalm 137[136], whose first words in the Latin version became famous: Super flumina Babylonis. The text evokes the tragedy lived by the Jewish people during the destruction of Jerusalem in about 586 B.C., and their subsequent and consequent exile in Babylon. We have before us a national hymn of sorrow, marked by a curt nostalgia for what has been lost.
(snip)
Let us entrust ourselves to St Augustine for a further meditation on our Psalm. The great Father of the Church introduces a surprising and very timely note: he knows that there are also people among the inhabitants of Babylon who are committed to peace and to the good of the community, although they do not share the biblical faith; the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire is unknown to them. Within them they have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greater, for the transcendent: for true redemption.
And Augustine says that even among the persecutors, among the non-believers, there are people who possess this spark, with a sort of faith or hope, as far as is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live. With this faith, even in an unknown reality, they are truly on their way towards the true Jerusalem, towards Christ.
And with this openness of hope, Augustine also warns the “Babylonians” - as he calls them -, those who do not know Christ or even God and yet desire the unknown, the eternal, and he warns us too, not to focus merely on the material things of the present but to persevere on the journey to God. It is also only with this greater hope that we will be able to transform this world in the right way. St Augustine says so in these words:
“If we are citizens of Jerusalem… and must live in this land, in the confusion of this world and in this Babylon where we do not dwell as citizens but are held prisoner, then we should not just sing what the Psalm says but we should also live it: something that is done with a profound, heartfelt aspiration, a full and religious yearning for the eternal city”.
And he adds with regard to the “earthly city called Babylon”, that it “has in it people who, prompted by love for it, work to guarantee it peace - temporal peace - nourishing in their hearts no other hope, indeed, by placing in this one all their joy, without any other intention. And we see them making every effort to be useful to earthly society”.
“Now, if they strive to do these tasks with a pure conscience, God, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, will not let them perish within Babylon: this is on condition, however, that while living in Babylon, they do not thirst for ambition, short-lived magnificence or vexing arrogance… He sees their enslavement and will show them that other city for which they must truly long and towards which they must direct their every effort” (Esposizioni sui Salmi, 136, 1-2: Nuova Biblioteca Agostiniana, XXVIII, Rome, 1977, pp. 397, 399).
And let us pray to the Lord that in all of us this desire, this openness to God, will be reawakened, and that even those who do not know Christ may be touched by his love so that we are all together on the pilgrimage to the definitive City, and that the light of this City may appear also in our time and in our world.
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DJim
Guest
Ironically, even the “Feeneyite” St. Benedict Center gets this one right!
Under the title, “Zenit Accuses Pope of Indifferentism”, they have this text:
What say you, MMLJ?
DJim
Under the title, “Zenit Accuses Pope of Indifferentism”, they have this text:
I’m very pleasantly surprised to find this in their news archive.
What say you, MMLJ?
DJim
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GerardP
Guest
I find it amazing that you can’t or won’t tell me whether or not EWTN has an official mechanism for making corrections.
Here’s an example: July 24,2005 Sunday Night Live with Fr. Benedict Groeschel. Subject: “Understanding People of Other Religious Faiths and other Religious Denominations.”
Quote:
“50 years ago the understanding was very different because people were rather convinced–great numbers of people–that those who didn’t belong to their denomination, or to their general group, like Protestants, didn’t stand much of a chance of making it. I never believed that-ever.”
Then after a quaint story about the people that he knew who were Jewish, Lutheran and Orthodox who went to Church he said, “I never bought the whole thing.”
Then he proceeded to redefine according to his whims what he thought the Church is and what it’s prerogatives are. And most importantly, he denied what is required for salvation.
Good luck calling. I was on the phone with them when the show was airing and the woman who answered the phone had no idea Fr. G was doctrinally off the rails. I read to her several quotes from encyclicals and she said, “I’m sure Fr. isn’t saying anything in error. He knows what the Church teaches.” I said, “Well he may know it but he needs to clarify the teaching of the Church because he’s going to lead a lot of people into error from what he’s said.”
No. According to a reading of Paul IV’s Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio, if someone has ever manifested a heresy, they can’t validly assume the office.
No. It’s more of a failure to correctly discern the Magisterium. Henry VIII is someone who wanted to be the Magisterium.
I’m not convinced it’s deception. But in either case, the Popes of recent years have lent credence to a lot of doubts about their fidelity.
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MMLJ
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SO he is error free?
Please leave Vatican II out if you are trying to provide a point.
That would not simplify our discussion.
Probably not, but that does not excuse the hundreds of misleading statements he has made throughtout his books, addresses, etc.Does the Pope really go around saying stuff and then concluding with the phrase, “says Benedict XVI”???
My Muslim colleague said he has no interest in Catholicism or Christ. He has no interest in or desire of being Baptized. In addition, he prays for your conversion to Islam the one true Religion of Allah (there is no God but Allah). If you shall not you will suffer the wrath Allah. Sorry, but that is what he said. Oh yeah and He thanks Pope Benedict XVI for always giving Islam great esteem and high regards. (don’t say I did not warn you).
He uses something like, are not exempt from salvation, or something to that effect. If not, please post what he really said with a link. Thank you.
So then actually show us.
This is how it should be:
Pope Eugene IV, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE, 1439, ex cathedra:
SESSION 8 22 November 1439
Sixthly, we offer to the envoys that compendious rule of the faith composed by most blessed Athanasius, which is as follows:
Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally…Whoever, therefore, wishes to be saved, let him think thus of the Trinity.
It is also necessary for salvation to believe faithfully the incarnation of our lord Jesus Christ. The right faith, therefore, is that we believe and confess that our lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, is God and man. God, …
This is the catholic faith. Unless a person believes it faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved
Since you agree with the Council of Florence and the belief in the incarnation Christ ,How are my colleagues of other faiths saved again?
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MMLJ
Guest
Say I this, well actually cite this:
Since you have already agreed with the Council of Florence, as one should, what say ye of this:
**]Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: **/B]“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives…
****1 St John 2:22 ****– “… he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist…”
St John 8:23-24-“… for if you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sin.”
I do not know about you but the above seems quite clear to me, how about you?
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MMLJ
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Hi again. I have another question for you. Do we need to believe in the papacy?
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DJim
Guest
Before I reply to individual posts, I just have to say that you guys, GerardP and MMLJ, are simply amazing–I’ve given you absolute evidence that your “evidence” of “heresy” from Pope Benedict XVI is fraudulent, and you have yet to acknowledge that this is the case.
First it was a deliberate partial quote from Cardinal Ratzinger, now it’s a deliberate contrived and nonexistent “quote” from him.
Do you both deny that these quotes do NOT convey what you originally accused them of conveying???
If you can’t even admit this much, I see no point in taking time to reply to your most recent posts. But I guess I will nonetheless…
DJim
First it was a deliberate partial quote from Cardinal Ratzinger, now it’s a deliberate contrived and nonexistent “quote” from him.
Do you both deny that these quotes do NOT convey what you originally accused them of conveying???
If you can’t even admit this much, I see no point in taking time to reply to your most recent posts. But I guess I will nonetheless…
DJim
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DJim
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I’m not affiliated with EWTN, nor do I have cable TV–why is this amazing to you?
Sounds like he accurately conveyed the teaching of the Catechism of Pope Pius X, as quoted earlier in this thread. Nothing you’ve actually quoted from him appears to be in any way erroneous.
As a faithful Catholic, Fr. Groeschel apparently embraces all the truths of the faith, including the truth that water baptism is not explicitly required for salvation. Obviously, this disturbs you, but it’s not error on his part.
Why? Because he disagrees with your overly rigid view of baptism and salvation–an erroneous view explicitly rejected by the Holy See in the August 8, 1949, letter from the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston?
Really? Tell that to St. Peter–I thought denial of Christ was pretty much the definition of heresy…
Anyone who dissents from the legitimate Magisterium becomes his own Magisterium.
Well, it’s your choice–the woeful carelessness of zealots OR deliberate deception. Which do you prefer?
Just so you actually acknowledge the papal texts are erroneously presented.
DJim
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DJim
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When he teaches universally in faith/morals, you bet he is.
Sheesh. Now you’re going to tell me that you reject the teaching of an ecumenical council of the Church? Wow. That does simplify things.
We are apparently going to be here for awhile–hundreds of misleading statements? Well, please keep 'em coming. I’m loaded for bear, so to speak.
So far, your sources are proving quite unreliable–what else you got?
Please–it’s your accusation. YOU provide the quote…He uses something like, are not exempt from salvation, or something to that effect. If not, please post what he really said with a link. Thank you.
They aren’t–yet. Neither are you.
Since you agree with the Council of Florence and the belief in the incarnation Christ ,How are my colleagues of other faiths saved again?
It remains to be seen whether they will respond to the grace God offers them and will reach Heaven. Just like the rest of us.
DJim
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GerardP
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I have not accused the Holy Father of being a heretic.
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GerardP
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Simple. You’ll something that you are utterly ignorant of.
Groeschel didn’t mention any qualifiers or necessity of belonging to the Catholic Church. He denied it. Flatly. That is not in any Catechism that I know of. (I haven’t read the Dutch Catechism though)
And the Catechism of St. Pius X says “on the way” of salvation. Not attains salvation.
Water Baptism had nothing to do with it. From his comments he denies any sort of membership in the Catholic Church. He’s not a faithful Catholic at all.
No, it’s obstinate denial of a revealed truth. That is heresy. St. Peter’s denial was a lie. Not a heresy.
That includes Fr. Groeschel, Mitch Pacwa and whole host of other personalities. Not just heretics like Henry VIII.
There is a difference between someone misunderstanding the Magisterium and someone dissenting from the Magisterium.
The charitable one.
Absolutely, I don’t trust the Dimond Bros regarding their accuracy or their conclusions. I’m just stating that they are not always 100% of the time wrong.
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DJim
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You’re correct. My apologies.
You are merely accusing him of professing beliefs that contradict dogmatic teachings of the Church, correct? As such, can you explain how this differs from “heresy”?
Unfortunately, the folks providing the “quotes” definitely accuse him of heresy…
My point is that I have demonstrated the flagrant misrepresentation of the Holy Father and would like you to ackowledge that this is so. --which I now see in your last note that you have done. Thank you.
DJim
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DJim
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DJim
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This is a prime example of how you seem to overstate things–I ask why you would think I’d know whether EWTN has forum through which it makes corrections when I don’t get to see EWTN much and am not affiliated with its organization, and you turn that into a claim that I’m “utterly ignorant of” EWTN.
That doesn’t fly.
Besides I’m not “utterly ignorant” of Fr. Groeschel, faithful priest that he is…
The issue is not Fr. G’s error but your sensitivity to hearing the truth of this issue. When Fr. G teaches according to the fullness of Church doctrine, you claim he is in error, when in fact the error is yours.
Again, you can’t just let it mean what the Pope really wants it to mean–you have to adapt the text according to your rigid and erroneous view.
A remarkable low point for you–personally attacking the good name and reputation of a cleric…
I get it now–Peter can be Pope because all he did was deny he ever even knew Christ let alone was a follower of Him. But, have someone state that water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation, and that disqualifies him from being pope???
What an intriguing world view.
But does not include someone actually excommunicated for disobedience to legitimate Church authority, like Fr. Leonard Feeney??? Am I right?
Which was Fr. Feeney?
No one is 100 percent wrong all the time–not even them. But they are in the upper 90s…
DJim
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MMLJ
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…and your point is what…it is not true?
1 St John 2:22 – “… he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist…”
That is what I have being trying to get you to admit.
Thank you. Rather to the point is it not?, but we can agree it is powerful and extremely clear. So what is all that air coming out about practice any religion…religious freedom…yada yada yada…ad nauseum?Others also stick a lot with Vatican II and seem to forget everthing that has occurred before it.
I shall attempt to simplify, forgive me if I fail to do so: What is the papacy and who must believe/follow/whatever it?
What happens to my Muslim and Hindu friends who are knowledgeable of Christ and know Christians believe he is the Son of GOD, but deny him outright. In addition they do not want anything to do with Baptism or desire in any way to be a Christian . They believe it is the Catholics who are going to feel the wrath of God if they do not convert. What say you of this, please feel provide links or cite references so that my colleagues and I can read them. Thank you.
I am not as well versed as you, I am a simple person trying to get answers.
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MMLJ
Guest
Now you are a mind reader since you are indicating that you know what I shall say speak in the Future???.:hypno:
I will try but school is starting so may not be able to continue for much longer.
You said it not I, by your own words.
The source you mean, singular. Unreliability is a characteristic that you are familiar with.
Now you have elevated yourself to the status of JUDGE. Do you now think you are Christ who is GOD? :hypno:
I say this because above you are clearly indicating who shall not be saved. That is a medical condition is it not?:whacky:
I guarantee you, if I was standing in front of you, you would not use those words.
No Doubt B, yah unastan meh? Meh tinks yah so. well trus meh, is bettah if yah did.
God Bless.
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