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april_hosen
Guest
- Status
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juno24
Guest
Yes, Mary recognized that she needed as Savior. The Church has never disputed that. It is the position of the Catholic Church that the act of Redemption was applied to Mary at the moment of her conception. Jesus’ sacrifice is timeless and eternal, and as such was applied to Mary when God chose to apply it–at her conception.
The motto of the Catholic Church is “semper idem” (always the same).
I don’t know what the author that website meant by the opening statement of this paragraph, but the quote is accurate, as far as it goes. The oral teachings of the Apostles are indeed on par with their written teachings. BOTH are the word of God. It is in no way blasphemous to hold fast to the traditions which have been delivered to us, both by word of mouth and by writing.
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april_hosen
Guest
No, I’m not anti-catholic. I have many Catholic friends. One of my best friends is a Catholic and I absolutely cherish her. I appologize if I came off anti- Catholic, that was not my intention at all. I was only hoping to learn something and I have.Thank you all for that. I think I’m going to resign from this discussion/ debate. The fact is I will always believe what I believe and you all are always going to believe what you all believe. So, I see no sense in running in circles trying to prove eachother wrong. We all have the same basis of faith and believe, that is Jesus Christ. So my brothers and sisters, I will see you all in Heaven and maybe somewhere else on this site.
God Bless,
April
God Bless,
April
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Eden
Guest
Here is a link to an article called “Teenaged Protestants Study Mary”:
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9805fea3.asp
A Baptist student concludes at the end of the article “God chose Mary to be Jesus’ mother because she never sinned, and, since Jesus is our Brother, Mary is our mother. We honor and respect her because she’s our mother, but we save worship for God.”
April, Jesus offered His Mother to you and all of us as our “spiritual Mother” as he was dying on the cross. You have the free will to reject His offer. When did He give His beloved Mother to us? “Mary was assigned this responsibility by Jesus when He spoke to Mary and John as they stood at the foot of the cross: Woman, behold your son. Then He said to the disciple, Behold, your mother. (Jn. 19: 26-27) John represented all of us. In giving Mary to him as spiritual Mother, Jesus was giving Mary to all of us as our spiritual Mother. Jesus knew we would need a spiritual Mother to help our souls grow in spiritual maturity. Since God the Father chose Mary to be the Mother of Jesus, she must have great insight on how to help us to lead holy lives pleasing to God.” - Shepherds of Christ Ministries
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9805fea3.asp
A Baptist student concludes at the end of the article “God chose Mary to be Jesus’ mother because she never sinned, and, since Jesus is our Brother, Mary is our mother. We honor and respect her because she’s our mother, but we save worship for God.”
April, Jesus offered His Mother to you and all of us as our “spiritual Mother” as he was dying on the cross. You have the free will to reject His offer. When did He give His beloved Mother to us? “Mary was assigned this responsibility by Jesus when He spoke to Mary and John as they stood at the foot of the cross: Woman, behold your son. Then He said to the disciple, Behold, your mother. (Jn. 19: 26-27) John represented all of us. In giving Mary to him as spiritual Mother, Jesus was giving Mary to all of us as our spiritual Mother. Jesus knew we would need a spiritual Mother to help our souls grow in spiritual maturity. Since God the Father chose Mary to be the Mother of Jesus, she must have great insight on how to help us to lead holy lives pleasing to God.” - Shepherds of Christ Ministries
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slinky1882
Guest
Hey April,
I don’t know if you’ll read this, but I noticed your pasted my earlier reply. Unfortunately, I couldn’t see any of your response. You are right, there is no sense in running in circles, but there is a point to open dialouge where there are two contradictory points of view as logically only one can be right. Thanks and God Bless.
M
mlchance
Guest
M
Mickey
Guest
Hi Eden,
That is very encouraging. It seems that many protestant denominations are beginning to awaken to the fact that The Blessed Mother is indeed our “spiritual mother”. It’s perplexing to me that Mary was de-emphasized so drastically, hundreds of years after the reformation–especially since the early reformers recognized her as the Ever Virgin Mother of God. And as you can read in my earlier post, Martin Luther even adhered to the theology of the immaculate conception and the assumption. I have many baptist friends, and for whatever reason, the baptists have downgraded the Blessed Mother more than any other denomination. Many times, there is a mind set within a denomination that develops a theology in complete opposition to Catholicism. My experience with many baptists indicates that many are converts from Catholicism. Some have become so embittered, that they don’t want their new church to resemble their former Church in any way, shape or form–and the pastor caters to this desire. This is only an observation.
God Bless
J
Joseph_Bilodeau
Guest
No, I’m afraid I don’t, because Jesus did die.Jesus didnt die… Do you see where I’m gettin at?
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EA_Man
Guest
How was my statement an example of special pleading?
Was I indicating that the standard that I was applying to the practice of Praying to Mary did not apply to me?
It seems to be a misidentifiaction of “special pleading” on your part.
I’m not saying that Catholics don’t make distinctions between dulia, hyper-dulia, and latria. I just didn’t want another recitation of those distinctions.
The point I was making was that in contravention of the official position of the Catholic Church that Catholics are not to PRAY TO Mary as God alone is to be worshiped, some in the Catholic Church PRAY TO Mary, by their own admission. This applies to Catholics that I know, I’m not saying that this applies to you.
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slinky1882
Guest
Out of curiosity, where do you get that John the Baptist was born without the stain of Original SIn??? Thanks and God Bless.
P
Peace-bwu
Guest
When we say “Hail Mary” we are directly quoting Scripture. Read Luke 1:26–56 please read all of it to get the full meaning. Notice Luke 1:28 says “Hail Mary, Full of Grace! The Lord is with you.” Some translations i.e my Catholic convert husband’s dusty Scoffield King J.V,which you might read, says : “Hail, thou who art highly favored, the lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” Luke 1:28 KJV If God wanted the Angel Gabriel, his messanger, to greet Mary that way there should be nothing wrong with us greeting her the same way!
The next part of our “HailMary prayer” is quoting Mary’s cousin Elisabeth **" And it came to pass that when Elisabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb: and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she spoke out with a loud voice, and said . ****Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of they womb" **Luke 1:42 KJV Now if Elisabeth so was filled with the Holy Spirit that she spoke this with a loud voice, it would be quite Biblical for us to proclaim the same.
The next line of the prayer comes from Elisabeth saying “And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43.KJV And so we take from this scripture the line Holy Mary, Mother of God (Lord is used to mean God) Next please read Mary’s “Magnificat” a beautiful prayer. I want to point out two lines here: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior” Luke 46 KJV and the line**:"For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.** Luke 1:48KJV
**Now, you might ask why we would ask Mary to pray for us? **Jesus’ first public miracle took place at the Wedding of Cana. Mary asked him to perform his first miracle! **And when they lacked wine the mother of Jesus saith unto him "They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her "Woman what have I to do with thee? Mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants Whatever he saith unto you do it. **and so Jesus proceded to turn the water into wine. She urged *her *Saviour and Son to have mercy on the bride and groom at the wedding of Cana and perform a miracle even though "his hour had not yet come.
For a non-Catholic who does not understand the concept of the Communion of Saints, or who rejects the idea that the saints in heaven can pray for us and with us, there is no convincing. Their hearts are hardened to the idea, but for those of us who believe that the Mother of Our Lord’s soul magnifies the Lord, by helping us to have a fuller understanding and relationship with her Son, Jesus Christ, and by being OUR Blessed Mother, whom Jesus gave to us just before His death on the cross, Mary points the way to her Son, instructing us to do everything he saith unto us. She doesn’t want glory for herself, but glory for her Son and the salvation of our souls. It is not necessary to have a devotion to Mary, but how wonderful and beautiful to have the Mother of Christ to pray with us and for us. My relationship with Christ is stronger because of it.
The next part of our “HailMary prayer” is quoting Mary’s cousin Elisabeth **" And it came to pass that when Elisabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb: and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she spoke out with a loud voice, and said . ****Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of they womb" **Luke 1:42 KJV Now if Elisabeth so was filled with the Holy Spirit that she spoke this with a loud voice, it would be quite Biblical for us to proclaim the same.
The next line of the prayer comes from Elisabeth saying “And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43.KJV And so we take from this scripture the line Holy Mary, Mother of God (Lord is used to mean God) Next please read Mary’s “Magnificat” a beautiful prayer. I want to point out two lines here: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior” Luke 46 KJV and the line**:"For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.** Luke 1:48KJV
**Now, you might ask why we would ask Mary to pray for us? **Jesus’ first public miracle took place at the Wedding of Cana. Mary asked him to perform his first miracle! **And when they lacked wine the mother of Jesus saith unto him "They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her "Woman what have I to do with thee? Mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants Whatever he saith unto you do it. **and so Jesus proceded to turn the water into wine. She urged *her *Saviour and Son to have mercy on the bride and groom at the wedding of Cana and perform a miracle even though "his hour had not yet come.
For a non-Catholic who does not understand the concept of the Communion of Saints, or who rejects the idea that the saints in heaven can pray for us and with us, there is no convincing. Their hearts are hardened to the idea, but for those of us who believe that the Mother of Our Lord’s soul magnifies the Lord, by helping us to have a fuller understanding and relationship with her Son, Jesus Christ, and by being OUR Blessed Mother, whom Jesus gave to us just before His death on the cross, Mary points the way to her Son, instructing us to do everything he saith unto us. She doesn’t want glory for herself, but glory for her Son and the salvation of our souls. It is not necessary to have a devotion to Mary, but how wonderful and beautiful to have the Mother of Christ to pray with us and for us. My relationship with Christ is stronger because of it.
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Peace-bwu
Guest
I think there might be a misunderstanding of what it means to “PRAY TO” a saint, such as Mary. We are using the old meaning of “Pray” to pray means to ask. We don’t worship them, we ask them to pray for us and with us. In old English it was common for people to use in their daily language: “pray thee do this or pray thee do that” it didnt’ mean they were worshiping the people to whom they were asking a favor. This phrase is still used in courts in England. In recent language in the United States, “PRAY TO” has come to mean “TO WORSHIP” This is a misuse of the language, but that happens with time, which is why latin, a dead language is used in both the Universal Catholic Church as well as in science. It is dead so it won’t change. The english language is in a constant state of change or mutation. I would guess that this has evolved in the Protestant vocabulary because for most, asking saints to pray with them or for them is not a contemporary practice, so if they only pray to God that word has become reserved for worship of God.
The correct meaning of the word “pray” has been held in the Catholic Church because we know we aren’t worshiping anyone but God, so to say "Pray to ST. Michael, or pray to Mary, or any other saint, simply means you are asking them, rest assured that if you have heard Catholics say they “pray to” Mary they are not worshiping her, they are using the original form of the word.
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EA_Man
Guest
I was raised Catholic, my wife’s family is Catholic. When they say “pray to Mary” that’s just what THEY mean. When my wife misplaced her car keys, her mother told her to “pray to St. Anthony” - unless this is Catholic code for “ask St. Anthony to intercede with Jesus to help find your car keys” then praying to means just that; praying TO. Also neither I, nor any of the Catholics I know personally, remember any instruction in how “not” to communicate to Mary or the saints. We remember receiving instruction on the Hail Mary - but no instruction was ever given along the lines of “remember - you’re not praying TO Mary, you’re only asking her to intercede for you.”
Furthermore, the explanation that language has changed is very nice but beside the point when the hearer of “pray TO” thinks it means something other than what you intended it to mean and acts on it.
Finally, Jesus has opened the way for us to go directly to the Father. Why not go directly to Him through Jesus rather than through a hierarchy of saints and other intercessors and then through Jesus? How is a prayer offered through a saint or Mary any more efficacious than one offered directly to God? Paul says all believers are saints.
Another question I have is this: how do latria, dulia, and hyper-dulia differ in PRACTICE? I understand the distinctions in the definitions of these terms, but how do they differ in practice? If latria is worship of God only, then how does the communication to Mary differ from that, and the communication with other saints differ from that to Mary?
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions
M
mercygate
Guest
But obviously, you were poorly catechized.
Bingo! (to use a “Catholic” word
)It is not beside the point; it is the point. Once the explanation is given, then the hearer no longer thinks “it means something other than what you intended it to mean.”
Did the Jews before Christ not “go directly to the Father” when they prayed? The Incarnation was not about how we pray.
We do. All the time. Come to think of it, why pray at all? After all, God is nearer to us and knows the needs of our hearts better than we do ourselves.
There is no “rather than” about it. We are a “communion.” We go to Christ together with our older brothers and sisters.
Paul calls all believers “saints” but he means something different from what we mean when we refer to those who have finished the race and are now in the presence of God. Paul’s “saints” had to be warned against divisions, fornication, strife . . . The prayer of the “righteous man” – perfected in Charity, united to Christ, and free from all taint of sin, as are the Saints in heaven – is “efficacious” (says James). So we tap into the sanctity of Christ himself when we join hands with the Communion of Saints. It’s not “either/or;” we and the Saints are ONE in Christ.
God knows the heart. I am sure you do not mean to imply that Catholics should adjust our devotional practice to accommodate a false assumption concerning our intentions.
Always a pleasure.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
But EA man, as a Catholic surely you were taught that prayer did not necessarily equal worship. Prayer was a communication, a request, and certainly prayer to God was a COMPONENT of worship, but prayer was not solely worship, and worship is not solely prayer.
And yes, “prayer to the saints” IS a
And yes, “prayer to the saints” IS a
, if you will, of “asking them to intercede with God on your behalf”. The fact that you even mention it shows that it must have stuck in your head somehow.
Code:
St. Anthony can only “help you find something missing” if it is GOD’S WILL and GOD’S ACTION. St. Jude will “assist” a hopeless cause only BY GOD’S WILL and GOD’S ACTION through him, just as any Christian does a good action through his cooperation with the grace that God gives him.
I think that unfortunately you had some poor catechesis and, with all due respect, some poor understanding on your part of your faith. Faith is a gift. You once accepted that gift, but then you took “another look” at it and disdained that gift in favor of something you think is what you really should have gotten in the first place. So, in addition to wanting to bolster your feeling that you’ve made the “right choice” by choosing Protestantism, you have a vested interest to even further “misunderstand”, misinterpret, denigrate and deny the Catholic faith you once had. So out come the stories of how Catholics REALLY pray, think, and act. . .as though because you purportedly prayed, thought and acted incorrectly in your misunderstanding that is somehow the “real Catholic faith”. Such ideas are disingenuous and hurtful to the person who is desperately trying to justify himself, because his thinking is further crystalized into that wrong understanding.
You have responsibilities, my friend. One responsibility of a person with faith is to learn that faith correctly. You fell down on your Catholic faith, and while you might have the scriptures down “better” in your current Protestant faith, you have still failed in your original responsibility to learn your original Catholic faith correctly. You might still choose Protestantism–plenty of people do, because it IS easier to choose a religion that changes to suit its members rather than expecting the members to change to suit its teachings–but at least you should know the real facts about what you threw away, instead of trying to justify yourself by at best misjudgments and at worst outright lying to yourself about Catholicism.
M
Mickey
Guest
Tantum ergo:
Code:
And here’s a fine example using St Peregrine, the patron saint of cancer patients:
[B]A Prayer to St. Peregrine
for Sick Relatives and Friends[/B]
O great St. Peregrine, you have been called “The Mighty”, “The Wonder Worker” because of the numerous miracles which you obtained from God for those who have turned to you in their need. For so many years, you bore in your own flesh this cancerous disease that destroys the very fiber of our being.
You turned to God when the power of human beings could do no more, and you were favored with the vision of Jesus coming down from His cross to heal your affliction. I now ask God to heal these sick persons whom I entrust to you:
[I](here mention their names)[/I]
Aided by your powerful intercession, I shall sing with Mary a hymn of gratitude to God for His great goodness and mercy. Amen.
E
EA_Man
Guest
Tantum ergo:
How are you not seeking to bolster your own “choice” through a denigration of Protestants?
Furthermore, I did not choose to be baptised and later raised in the Catholic church. That decision was made by others. I have since remedied that situation as well by being baptised again as a sign of my accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior.
You might still choose Catholicism, plenty of people do because it IS easier to choose legalism than it is to think for yourself.
See, I can engage in polemical generalizations too, my friend.
Back to the business at hand.
Here is the text of The Memorare:
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but, in your mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.
Here is the end of the Litany of the Blessed Virgin:
We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God. Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and Blessed Virgin.
It is God alone that delivers us from evil - not Mary.
“Deliver us from evil and grant us peace in our day…”
Scripture declares that God hears our petitions - these prayers seem to deny the promise made by Scripture by pleading to be heard through intercession.
1 John 5:13-15
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
Why the redundancy of invoking the aid of the saints? Scripture says it isn’t necessary. God hears our petitions.
Romans 8:26-27
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.
Rome declares that adherence to the teachings of Rome are necessary for salvation. Sorry I don’t agree. Neither does Paul;.
Romans 10: 8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
I have the confidence of God’s Word that when I pray, God hears me. Legalism is not rules, instead it is Jesus Christ AND something else. In this case it is the necessity of the intercession of Mary and the saints to make sure that my petitions are heard. But I have shown that scripture does not deem that to be necessary.
Undoubtedly I had some “poor catechesis”. I’m seeking to remedy that through the Word of God and prayer - to God (just to be clear.)
How are you not seeking to bolster your own “choice” through a denigration of Protestants?
Furthermore, I did not choose to be baptised and later raised in the Catholic church. That decision was made by others. I have since remedied that situation as well by being baptised again as a sign of my accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior.
You might still choose Catholicism, plenty of people do because it IS easier to choose legalism than it is to think for yourself.
See, I can engage in polemical generalizations too, my friend.
Back to the business at hand.
Here is the text of The Memorare:
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but, in your mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.
Here is the end of the Litany of the Blessed Virgin:
We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God. Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and Blessed Virgin.
It is God alone that delivers us from evil - not Mary.
“Deliver us from evil and grant us peace in our day…”
Scripture declares that God hears our petitions - these prayers seem to deny the promise made by Scripture by pleading to be heard through intercession.
1 John 5:13-15
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
Why the redundancy of invoking the aid of the saints? Scripture says it isn’t necessary. God hears our petitions.
Romans 8:26-27
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.
Rome declares that adherence to the teachings of Rome are necessary for salvation. Sorry I don’t agree. Neither does Paul;.
Romans 10: 8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
I have the confidence of God’s Word that when I pray, God hears me. Legalism is not rules, instead it is Jesus Christ AND something else. In this case it is the necessity of the intercession of Mary and the saints to make sure that my petitions are heard. But I have shown that scripture does not deem that to be necessary.
M
Mickey
Guest
Your second baptism was not valid. The Donatist heresy of rebaptism was settled about 1700 years ago. Sadly, some protestant churches continue to do this, especially baptists.
Is that why there are over 36,000 protestant divisions, because people thought for themselves?
The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the living teachers. Because you have abandoned (Sacred Scripture+ Sacred Tradition) in favor of the unbiblical doctrine of sola Scriptura, does not give you the authority to call Catholics and Orthodox legalists. Careful with the stones you throw.
Stand firm and hold to the traditions which were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2Thess. 2:15)
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)
P
Palatine
Guest
Just a question, do you ask your friends to pray for you for anything?
E
EA_Man
Guest
I realize that it wasn’t necessary, no one told me that it was. I wanted to do it as sign that I chose to follow Jesus Christ of my own free will. I could have just as easily or even more easily recognized the validity of my infant Baptism, though I do not subscribe to baptismal regeneration. Nor do I believe that it is required for salvation. Many Protestants think Baptism is required for salvation or and that it is regenerative, or both.
This meme apparently never loses its shine with some.
You are incorrectly citing a figure from the World Christian Encyclopedia. According to that source, the Roman Catholic Church has over 200 denominations. Are you endorsing that figure as well? Do you even know how the author, David Barrett has arrived at his figures?
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Matthew 15:3, 6
And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?..You have nullified the word of God, for the sake of your tradition"
So what we have here? First, we have a completely erroneous citation from a respected Christian resource. And secondly, a lame attempt at justifying the acceptance of Tradition in addition to Scripture. Lastly, you never addressed my claim: that it is unnecessary to petition Mary and the saints for intercession in order for God to hear our prayers. See Post #56
But since you opened this particular can of worms, let’s see what’s inside. It is acknowledged by even some Catholic scholars that there are contradictory Christian traditions. In fact, Peter Abelard noted hundreds of differences. For example, some fathers (e.g., Augustine) supported the Old Testament Apocrypha while others (e.g., Jerome and Origen) opposed it. Some great teachers (e.g., Aquinas) opposed the Immaculate Conception of Mary while others (e.g., Scotus) favored it. Some fathers opposed sola Scriptura, but others favored it.
Now this very fact makes it impossible to trust tradition in any authoritative sense. For the question always arises: which of the contradictory traditions (teachings) should be accepted? To say, “The one pronounced authoritative by the church” is begging the question, since the infallibility of tradition is a necessary link in the argument for the very doctrine of the infallible authority of the church. Thus this infallibility should be provable without appealing to the Magisterium. The fact is that there are so many contradictory traditions that tradition, as such, is rendered unreliable as an authoritative source of dogma.
- Status