The muddle we're in started long before the gay marriage and HHS mandate debates

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. . . with the straight people who wanted to fornicate and cohabitate, and the Catholics who wanted to divorce and remarry without an annulment. These folks devalued marriage and sought to “redefine” it in ways that suited their own ends. They made marriage difficult to defend by making it seem unrealistic and beyond the reach of ordinary mortals to achieve, thus they dismissed it as desirable. “Who needs a piece of paper?” “As long as they’re happy together.” “How can you know you’re ‘compatible’ unless you live together first?”

Same thing with birth control. The mindset has even invaded the NFP practice, with people fretting about how NFP is frustrating, doesn’t “work” as birth control, and often giving up on it. Their priorities are all out of order. Now contraception is the norm, even among many who identify as Catholics.

So many ways this society has dug its own grave. I know I’ve posted maybe too many threads about the gay marriage topic, what I’m saying now is I certainly don’t totally blame the gays for this being an issue tearing our society apart. Many others laid the groundwork. I don’t support gay unions but I thought at least I should be fair - gay people’s desire for legal unions or “marriages” is understandable - they’re seeing the benefits, even if simply financial, of an institution that the straight people distorted till it’s practically unrecognizable.
 
3DOCTORS said:
. . . with the straight people who wanted to fornicate and cohabitate, and the Catholics who wanted to divorce and remarry without an annulment. These folks devalued marriage and sought to “redefine” it in ways that suited their own ends. They made marriage difficult to defend by making it seem unrealistic and beyond the reach of ordinary mortals to achieve, thus they dismissed it as desirable. “Who needs a piece of paper?” “As long as they’re happy together.” “How can you know you’re ‘compatible’ unless you live together first?”

Same thing with birth control. The mindset has even invaded the NFP practice, with people fretting about how NFP is frustrating, doesn’t “work” as birth control, and often giving up on it. Their priorities are all out of order. Now contraception is the norm, even among many who identify as Catholics.

So many ways this society has dug its own grave. I know I’ve posted maybe too many threads about the gay marriage topic, what I’m saying now is I certainly don’t totally blame the gays for this being an issue tearing our society apart. Many others laid the groundwork. I don’t support gay unions but I thought at least I should be fair - gay people’s desire for legal unions or “marriages” is understandable - they’re seeing the benefits, even if simply financial, of an institution that the straight people distorted till it’s practically unrecognizable.
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“Instead of Catholics converting the culture, the culture too often bleached out the apostolic zeal in Catholics while leaving the brand label intact.” - Archbishop Chaput
 
timotheos said:
“Instead of Catholics converting the culture, the culture too often bleached out the apostolic zeal in Catholics while leaving the brand label intact.” - Archbishop Chaput
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Right on, Archbishop Chaput! 👍
 
3DOCTORS said:
. . . with the straight people who wanted to fornicate and cohabitate, and the Catholics who wanted to divorce and remarry without an annulment. These folks devalued marriage and sought to “redefine” it in ways that suited their own ends. They made marriage difficult to defend by making it seem unrealistic and beyond the reach of ordinary mortals to achieve, thus they dismissed it as desirable. “Who needs a piece of paper?” “As long as they’re happy together.” “How can you know you’re ‘compatible’ unless you live together first?”

Same thing with birth control. The mindset has even invaded the NFP practice, with people fretting about how NFP is frustrating, doesn’t “work” as birth control, and often giving up on it. Their priorities are all out of order. Now contraception is the norm, even among many who identify as Catholics.

So many ways this society has dug its own grave. I know I’ve posted maybe too many threads about the gay marriage topic, what I’m saying now is I certainly don’t totally blame the gays for this being an issue tearing our society apart. Many others laid the groundwork. I don’t support gay unions but I thought at least I should be fair - gay people’s desire for legal unions or “marriages” is understandable - they’re seeing the benefits, even if simply financial, of an institution that the straight people distorted till it’s practically unrecognizable.
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I could not agree more. I just think that removing the natural consequence of sex, which is BABIES, unpinned a lot of society’s foundation and now we’ve been building on sand for decades, for generations. I don’t know when Jesus is going to come again, but I hope it’s soon, frankly.
 
3DOCTORS said:
. . . with the straight people who wanted to fornicate and cohabitate, and the Catholics who wanted to divorce and remarry without an annulment. These folks devalued marriage and sought to “redefine” it in ways that suited their own ends. They made marriage difficult to defend by making it seem unrealistic and beyond the reach of ordinary mortals to achieve, thus they dismissed it as desirable. “Who needs a piece of paper?” “As long as they’re happy together.” “How can you know you’re ‘compatible’ unless you live together first?”

Same thing with birth control. The mindset has even invaded the NFP practice, with people fretting about how NFP is frustrating, doesn’t “work” as birth control, and often giving up on it. Their priorities are all out of order. Now contraception is the norm, even among many who identify as Catholics.

So many ways this society has dug its own grave. I know I’ve posted maybe too many threads about the gay marriage topic, what I’m saying now is I certainly don’t totally blame the gays for this being an issue tearing our society apart. Many others laid the groundwork. I don’t support gay unions but I thought at least I should be fair - gay people’s desire for legal unions or “marriages” is understandable - they’re seeing the benefits, even if simply financial, of an institution that the straight people distorted till it’s practically unrecognizable.
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I would have to mainly agree with you. I’m 27 y/o and my peers are headed down not,so ideal paths in life. My best friend concedes that God “most likely” wouldn’t condone contraception but continues to use it. Other friends call me “Christian” because I don’t go for homosexual unions, contraceptives and living together. Heh, my ill brother lives with his gf and still comes to mass! My 3 sisters don’t realy believe the Catholic Church’s dogmatic teachings are infallible. It’s almost like my siblings act as if they go to a Protestant church and are disagreeing with the pastor on certain issues. I left the church for 9 years and have been back for 2 1/2 and needed to re learn allot. They never left but seem to need it more then I do. the whole frickin world seems to be circling the drain. I’m worried about my 14 m/o and 6 week old kids living in this world!!
 
The purpose of marriage is to sanctify the act of sexual intercourse between man and woman as a means to produce and foster new life. Seeing as how marriage is tied inseparably to the act of sexual intercourse, if you distort the act of sexual intercourse then the sacrament of marriage also becomes corrupted.

Really, our society has been distorting and corrupting the act of sexual intercourse since the early part of the last century (when protestants started to allow contraception) so I totally understand why so many marriages are in such shambles today. In fact, the so called “sexual revolution” was in full-swing even back in the 60’s so a lot of young adults in today’s society can’t even look towards their parents for a fulfilling example of what a holy, christian marriage looks like anymore. The word marriage has really lost all meaning in our society today and a lot of couples don’t even consider getting married anymore because without God in the equation it really is just a piece of paper.

For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and the whole world…
 
3DOCTORS said:
. . . with the straight people who wanted to fornicate and cohabitate, and the Catholics who wanted to divorce and remarry without an annulment. These folks devalued marriage and sought to “redefine” it in ways that suited their own ends. They made marriage difficult to defend by making it seem unrealistic and beyond the reach of ordinary mortals to achieve, thus they dismissed it as desirable. “Who needs a piece of paper?” “As long as they’re happy together.” “How can you know you’re ‘compatible’ unless you live together first?”

Same thing with birth control. The mindset has even invaded the NFP practice, with people fretting about how NFP is frustrating, doesn’t “work” as birth control, and often giving up on it. Their priorities are all out of order. Now contraception is the norm, even among many who identify as Catholics.

So many ways this society has dug its own grave. I know I’ve posted maybe too many threads about the gay marriage topic, what I’m saying now is I certainly don’t totally blame the gays for this being an issue tearing our society apart. Many others laid the groundwork. I don’t support gay unions but I thought at least I should be fair - gay people’s desire for legal unions or “marriages” is understandable - they’re seeing the benefits, even if simply financial, of an institution that the straight people distorted till it’s practically unrecognizable.
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First, understand that we were lied to. The devil took our Catholic love and respect for all and lied to us. He’s very good at making his lies sound convincing. If we, as Catholics, do not understand what actually happened then there’s no point in saying “we brought this on ourselves.” The devil poisoned us gradually as he convinced human beings to do his work over a 40 year period

Catholics were not responsible for any of the following. Until we get that, then we believe the lies, including - “yeah, well, the straights messed everything up first.”

1960 The FDA approves The Pill.

1966 The National Organization was founded. It’s sole purpose: to turn men into the eternal enemy, and women into the eternal victims.

www.now.org/

1967 Some Catholic institutions of higher learning sign a statement separating themselves from the Church.

archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511fea1sb5.asp

Why? Freedom!

1967 The manufacturers of The Pill had to move product, and they had to convince the people that it offered them a benefit. Freedom! Freedom of fear. Freedom from babies.

Time magazine cover story from 1967:

Look at the top line: “Contraception: Freedom from fear.”

And I was born in the mid-1950s, and the average number of kids in my neighborhood was 2. No birth control pill.

1968 Pope Paul VI, having correctly read the ‘signs of the times,’ has Humanae Vitae published. He warned Catholics of increased promiscuity if his words weren’t heeded, and he went against the advice of a group formed just prior to publication that recommended loosening the restrictions on artificial birth control. Dissidents inside and outside the Church reacted very quickly:

“Within 24 hours, in an event unprecedented in the history of the Church, more than 200 dissenting theologians signed a full-page ad in The New York Times in protest. Not only did they declare their disagreement with encyclical’s teaching; they went one step further, far beyond their authority as theologians, and actually encouraged dissent among the lay faithful.”

Got that? “… an event unprecedented in the history of the Church…”

But most of us didn’t know at the time. We were living out our Catholic faith daily, neighbors helped neighbors and we didn’t lock our doors at night. Divorce was very rare. I was surrounded by a lot of good role models. I looked forward to all this continuing into adulthood. The media reflected our values, the newspapers would write beautiful editorials on Christmas, and there were beautiful songs about love and devotion on the radio. No, it was not perfect but most families were stable. God was part of my daily life. We trusted our government more and that it would do the right thing. 1968 marked the beginning of the 5 year plan for the radicals, anarchists and Hippies. And we did not know what was coming

All I knew about Hippies was that they had long hair, wore peace symbols and would say, “Peace, brother.” What was wrong about that? They appeared to be harmless.
 
1969 The National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws was founded. Please read this and understand what the word subversion means, along with just plain lying.

catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=402

Had everyone been told the truth, abortion had no chance. And just like manufacturers of The Pill did not need the Catholic Church standing in their way, it was presented as the villain, and wrong, again.

We did not know what was happening behind the scenes. We were more than likely to trust “experts” and accept facts as facts. We loved the truth and honesty. But now, two wells were poisoned, which caused confusion among the Catholic faithful when:

1973 The Supreme Court, not the people, legalizes abortion. All Catholics were stunned. The Court, citing a vague right to privacy and “penumbras” and “emanations” from the Constitution, told Americans: it’s OK to kill your unborn baby if you want to in Roe v. Wade.

In the meantime, the Hippies and anarchists were publishing underground newspapers and comic books telling us that corporations were evil, and showing us pornographic images, encouraging us to smoke dope and even opening (dope) Head Shops in my neighborhood. We were told to reject all authority: mom, dad, priests, nuns, - except their authority, of course.

I was shocked to see a guy a few years older than me from a similar family background, turn into a fresh-from-Hippie-Boot-Camp Hippie. He grew his hair to the regulation length, he wore a chain at the regulation length, his speech included phrases straight out of the underground papers and comics. When I found out he was living with his girlfriend, I asked, nonjudgementally, “Why don’t you just get married?” His reply? "I don’t need no piece of paper to live with my old lady. “Old lady?” She was what? 22?

You were now free! Free from mom and dad and the Church. Oh yeah. Just indulge your senses. Smoke dope. Have sex with your girlfriend or anyone else. It’s all about freedom, man. Once I heard him refer to a fornicating couple as “performing natural acts.”

1970s Then an underground media was created using millions of dollars to hire models, photographers, printers and distributors to open Adult Bookstores. What was meant to be private was now public. The new Opium Dens opened across the country selling images of prostitutes. And not only that, you could buy Swinger magazines with hundreds of ads from people looking for no strings attached sex. Throw in topless bars and strip clubs - something that never existed just a few years prior, and the planned addiction pattern occurred.

Then the regular media began to give us songs like this:

sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/I-Just-Want-To-Make-Love-To-You-lyrics-The-Foghat/84730A283E6A3E0A48256D090023B6D0

And this:

sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Five-Foot-One-lyrics-Iggy-Pop/49C54A99EC3AE92C48256E270011D6F1

“Swedish magazines is porn.”

Got it? Men were told it was all OK. It was all legal. And when Christians protested, they sent their high priced lawyers in. In 1968, the raciest newsstand magazine you could buy was Playboy.
 
Read Romans 1: 18-32.

THE root of our “problem” is a refusal to accept God and to try to a make sincere life long effort to follow Him.

Perhaps we see the bar as being set too high, so why even try? We cannot believe that God’s Grace is indeed sufficient. Perhaps we reject the saving power of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Perhaps we think Church leaders MUST PERFECT and if not, we are excused from paying attention to what Christ taught. We will judged on our lives, not on theirs.

Perhaps we just see what this world has to offer and choose that over what we think are too many restrictions. The Pill and Drugs, Sex, and Rock and Roll and Mass Media may have put us in to overdrive. We tend to ignore the dangers until they slap us down hard.

We seem to have a problem in separating sin and crime. We just cannot put so many sinners on trial and jail them for public sins, so we redefine the law to make sin legal. Once legal, many others say if it is legal it must be OK.

The Church needs to do a better job in teaching us the value of our Faith. The Popes write a lot of great messages, short and long, but are they adequately presented and discussed at the parish level?

But, then we have to choose to listen and live our Faith accordingly. Christ said many would not listen. Even to Him.

Romans 1: 18-32, written nearly 2,000 years ago already covers all of this.
 
Jesus told us that that path would be narrow and difficult and that few would be able to follow it. If we accept that He told the truth, then why do the actions of the secular world surprise us?

Our responsibility is to hold fast to our faith no matter what society does. We are called to set an example and speak the Truth in love. Self righteousness has not saved one soul, righted one wrong or changed one life. To the extent that we show others that following Jesus is a better choice than the choice the world gives them, we will see a change.
 
So, when moms and dads and even friends and neighbors, went up to these people and said, in kindness and concern, “If you love the girl, why don’t you just marry her?” They created the wall of separation that exists to this day. “Leave us alone! We’re responsible adults. We’ll do what we want!” Can you imagine the heartbreak of mothers and fathers and even aunts and uncles who were told - “We are not going to live like you, so just leave us alone.”?

They built a wall of separation while encouraging anyone who would listen - I was there - “You want to have sex with your girlfriend, right?” And if your answer was not until we get married, you either got silence or, “Hey, man. Things have changed. Don’t be tied down to those old-fashioned ideas.” And “Hey, you wanna try some dope? It’ll expand your mind.” And when I said it was dangerous to use, they said I was being lied to.

It’s hard to have a community when your son has three kids by three different women, is drunk or high a lot and complains about the oppression of laws that were good, not bad. “The man is trying to control you. You gotta free your mind.” From what? Why? What was wrong with 5 years ago?

Yeah, James Brown sang “Sex Machine” (1970).

And you know what else happened in 1973? The American Psychiatric Association voted, without any science to support it, to remove Homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual under pressure from gay activists.

catholiccitizens.org/press/contentview.asp?c=30263

1980s Porn on cable. A Catholic idea? Using the excuse that court dockets were full and to move the process along, I open up the newspaper to see a lot of classified ads that show zero respect for marriage. "No kids? $75 and you’re out. Call 800-DIVORCE. The National Organization of Women did a good job in the 1970s to convince women that men were out to use, abuse and dump you. All men. So, by creating an atmosphere of fear and distrust - it was the perfect marketing vehicle for No-Fault Divorce.

Peace,
Ed
 
Link to the 1967 Time magazine cover story about The Pill:

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,843551,00.html

To reiterate, we were lied to, deceived and manipulated. Our weaknesses were magnified a hundred-fold. I saw it. The plan was to overthrow right living and replace it with the devil’s image and likeness of life on earth. A culture that could lead to one thing - death, both spiritual and physical. And his spokesmen repeat his lies now, 24/7.

Peace,
Ed
 
You’ve laid out the history very well, but since we don’t have a blue phone booth around, we can’t go back in time to change it. We’re stuck with what we have and now we have to find the best way to deal with it.

All I have is my own example. My heart was not turned toward Jesus by threats of Hell, legislation or self-righteous speeches. My heart was turned by the example of Catholics who were living a life I wanted. They had a grace and peace that overflowed from them and they shared it with me. They showed me and taught me about a God who loved me, and they pounded that into me until I believed it. Once I realized that God didn’t love me in some abstract way, but in a real enough way to give His life for ME, then there was no question about how I would live my life. I no longer wanted to live a life that wasn’t pleasing to Him because He loved me.

If that could work for me, and lead to live a celibate life, it can work for others-gay or straight.
 
Seeker1961 said:
You’ve laid out the history very well, but since we don’t have a blue phone booth around, we can’t go back in time to change it. We’re stuck with what we have and now we have to find the best way to deal with it.

All I have is my own example. My heart was not turned toward Jesus by threats of Hell, legislation or self-righteous speeches. My heart was turned by the example of Catholics who were living a life I wanted. They had a grace and peace that overflowed from them and they shared it with me. They showed me and taught me about a God who loved me, and they pounded that into me until I believed it. Once I realized that God didn’t love me in some abstract way, but in a real enough way to give His life for ME, then there was no question about how I would live my life. I no longer wanted to live a life that wasn’t pleasing to Him because He loved me.

If that could work for me, and lead to live a celibate life, it can work for others-gay or straight.
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And it’s great to see you write that.

My fellow Catholics - Faith without works are dead. Who will speak the truth about:

Euthanasia
Abortion
Fornication
Cohabitation with sex
Same-sex marriage
Divorce without annulment - I was told, in the 1980s, by a Catholic friend: “I’m not getting an annulment because then my kids would be bastards.”
Gay heroes in comic books.

The pagan media is speaking 24/7. We must speak the truth, and get it out there, in charity and love.

We’re in no muddle if we don’t just do the basics - Church on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation. We have to let those who produce and promote what is not true know that this is it. No more time spent with their idea of entertainment. And an ongoing campaign to convince others, not just Catholics, that what the world is offering is mostly bad.

Peace,
Ed

Peace,
Ed
 
One aspect that you left out, Edwest.

The invasion into seminaries of homosexual pedophiles, which then caused the molestation scandals that continue to haunt the Church to this day.

That perversion should never have happened, and although I know the victims suffered, the media has also played the occurrences up to the maximum and kept harping on them and hammering the Church as though there were no other pedophiles in society.
 
Spot on.

The problem is the definition of marriage has been changing since the sexual revolution. Marriage must be, by its very nature, procreative and unititive, between husband and wife. Straight couples have sterilised the marriage act with contraception and abortion. Contraception has allowed people to enjoy the sex act without the responsibility that comes with it, and by pollutting it by removing the procreative nature.

Contraception lessened the chance of conception, essentially taking the venom out of the cobra, so to speak. So more and more people took to fornication and cohabitiation. Married couples now go years before starting a family, people now say “two children is enough!!”

So when we have straight relationships that are sterile, and marriage is just a legalised version of that relationship, then of course, Jack and James, who’s sex acts are always sterile, can also be accepted.

Contraception is the evil from which all evil in the family and society has stemmed. Abortion, gay marriage, co-habitation, fornication, porn, hook-ups, all of this mess has come from contraception.

Our Holy Church warned teh Anglicans about it, they failed to heed the advice, now that horrible posion has reached into all aspects of society, and even into our faith community.
 
3DOCTORS said:
. . . with the straight people who wanted to fornicate and cohabitate, and the Catholics who wanted to divorce and remarry without an annulment. These folks devalued marriage and sought to “redefine” it in ways that suited their own ends. They made marriage difficult to defend by making it seem unrealistic and beyond the reach of ordinary mortals to achieve, thus they dismissed it as desirable. “Who needs a piece of paper?” “As long as they’re happy together.” “How can you know you’re ‘compatible’ unless you live together first?”

Same thing with birth control. The mindset has even invaded the NFP practice, with people fretting about how NFP is frustrating, doesn’t “work” as birth control, and often giving up on it. Their priorities are all out of order. Now contraception is the norm, even among many who identify as Catholics.

So many ways this society has dug its own grave. I know I’ve posted maybe too many threads about the gay marriage topic, what I’m saying now is I certainly don’t totally blame the gays for this being an issue tearing our society apart. Many others laid the groundwork. I don’t support gay unions but I thought at least I should be fair - gay people’s desire for legal unions or “marriages” is understandable - they’re seeing the benefits, even if simply financial, of an institution that the straight people distorted till it’s practically unrecognizable.
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This is what I mean when I point out my belief that there is momentum in the Same Sex Marriage movement, and that legalization is inevitable. The purpose of marriage has changed in society. The duties of each spouse were well defined 60 years ago, culturally and legally. Today that is not so. The logical progression is that with no gender definitions in marriage, then why does it matter the individual gender of the spouses? Like it or not, this is the logical next step in the path secular society is treading.
 
vera_dicere said:
Spot on.

The problem is the definition of marriage has been changing since the sexual revolution. Marriage must be, by its very nature, procreative and unititive, between husband and wife. Straight couples have sterilised the marriage act with contraception and abortion. Contraception has allowed people to enjoy the sex act without the responsibility that comes with it, and by pollutting it by removing the procreative nature.

Contraception lessened the chance of conception, essentially taking the venom out of the cobra, so to speak. So more and more people took to fornication and cohabitiation. Married couples now go years before starting a family, people now say “two children is enough!!”

So when we have straight relationships that are sterile, and marriage is just a legalised version of that relationship, then of course, Jack and James, who’s sex acts are always sterile, can also be accepted.

Contraception is the evil from which all evil in the family and society has stemmed. Abortion, gay marriage, co-habitation, fornication, porn, hook-ups, all of this mess has come from contraception.

Our Holy Church warned teh Anglicans about it, they failed to heed the advice, now that horrible posion has reached into all aspects of society, and even into our faith community.
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Nicely summarized.

👍🙂
 
epan said:
This is what I mean when I point out my belief that there is momentum in the Same Sex Marriage movement, and that legalization is inevitable. The purpose of marriage has changed in society. The duties of each spouse were well defined 60 years ago, culturally and legally. Today that is not so. The logical progression is that with no gender definitions in marriage, then why does it matter the individual gender of the spouses? Like it or not, this is the logical next step in the path secular society is treading.
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It is an illogical step. Not everyone chooses to live like this.

Peace,
Ed
 
Ed, thanks for hunting up the references. I was born in '62, so grade-school age and not aware of all the implications of what was going on - though in '73 I remember the Roe v. Wade headlines. I was horrified. I still am. Not without compassion for a woman in crisis with a pregnancy, mind you. But to kill a baby? :confused:
 
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