O
Ontheway
Guest
This is quite sufficient. Thank you. Was this press release not reported on in the local media? What kind of coverage did it receive?
- Status
O
Ontheway
Guest
Non-mainstream media? Could you cite a couple of sources?
P
Peter_Plato
Guest
You say you haven’t had your question answered.
Really, though, you posed two questions which may or may not be reducible to one.
In terms of Islam, there is a radical disconnect between the teachings and actions of Muhammad and the “moderate” views purportedly held by “most Muslims.” The logical question that arises from that disconnect is: “Why do moderates consider themselves “believers” in the words of the Prophet when his words and deeds are clearly not moderate?”
Ultimately, what “people are looking for” is a reconciliation of the cognitive dissonance between what is said and what is done in such a way as the existence of the apparent discord itself is properly explained. That hasn’t happened. You can’t blame the thick-headedness of people outside of Islam for that dissonance, when the problem clearly derives from inside of Islam and the failure of Muslims to properly explain why the problems aren’t inherent in and integral to the Islamic belief system.
It is fine to CLAIM that such things as constitutional governments. tolerance of other religions and freedom of thought are going to be respected with regard to those not holding to Muslim beliefs, but it is an entirely different thing to read the core teachings of Islam and see that such things are not integral to and, in fact, completely foreign to the religion; nor are these things respected in practice when Islam reaches some level of dominance or influence within a country.
The explanations for this disconnect have been largely unsatisfactory since they are couched in tentative language that is largely conditional upon how firm a grip Islam has on the political and religious lives of those affected or on the audience hearing the “account” which purports to be an explanation – i.e., when the grip of Islam is tenuous the language is moderated, but when the grip is firm the language and imposition becomes unyielding. That cannot just be explained away as an inconsequential or accidental feature when it has been a core feature, historically speaking, and continues to be in the modern world.
Really, though, you posed two questions which may or may not be reducible to one.
I think what people want, ultimately, is the TRUTH, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In particular when there seems to be a great disconnect between what people say or promote and what they do.
In terms of Islam, there is a radical disconnect between the teachings and actions of Muhammad and the “moderate” views purportedly held by “most Muslims.” The logical question that arises from that disconnect is: “Why do moderates consider themselves “believers” in the words of the Prophet when his words and deeds are clearly not moderate?”
Ultimately, what “people are looking for” is a reconciliation of the cognitive dissonance between what is said and what is done in such a way as the existence of the apparent discord itself is properly explained. That hasn’t happened. You can’t blame the thick-headedness of people outside of Islam for that dissonance, when the problem clearly derives from inside of Islam and the failure of Muslims to properly explain why the problems aren’t inherent in and integral to the Islamic belief system.
How about a complete and honest explication of what Muslims really want from others in terms which adequately and fully resolve the conflict between their personal religious commitments to Islam (i.e., a complete depiction of what they believe and why they do) with what the implications of those beliefs are regarding those who do not share their beliefs and how those others are to be treated?
It is fine to CLAIM that such things as constitutional governments. tolerance of other religions and freedom of thought are going to be respected with regard to those not holding to Muslim beliefs, but it is an entirely different thing to read the core teachings of Islam and see that such things are not integral to and, in fact, completely foreign to the religion; nor are these things respected in practice when Islam reaches some level of dominance or influence within a country.
The explanations for this disconnect have been largely unsatisfactory since they are couched in tentative language that is largely conditional upon how firm a grip Islam has on the political and religious lives of those affected or on the audience hearing the “account” which purports to be an explanation – i.e., when the grip of Islam is tenuous the language is moderated, but when the grip is firm the language and imposition becomes unyielding. That cannot just be explained away as an inconsequential or accidental feature when it has been a core feature, historically speaking, and continues to be in the modern world.
P
Padres1969
Guest
kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/
youtube.com/watch?v=hAxIOC8Zisc
isna.net/isna-condemns-paris-terror-attack.html
i100.independent.co.uk/article/british-muslims-are-literally-paying-to-condemn-isis-so-everyone-can-stop-going-on-about-it-now–b1V6zQTOKe
cbc.ca/newsblogs/yourcommunity/2014/09/muslimapologies-hashtag-mocks-the-idea-that-all-muslims-are-extremists.html
cbsnews.com/videos/american-muslims-denounce-isis/
beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html
time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/
I’d keep posting, but you get the idea. Muslims and Muslim leaders from California to Iran, from London to Jordan, from all over the world have condemned Daesh. If you think they haven’t been condemning what is going on you’re not paying attention or watching far too much US mainstream news coverage.
O
Ontheway
Guest
This is lovely, but there is not a single word about the evil of Islamist attacks. There is not one word about the Islamic community rejecting the ISIS fighters and their actions.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.
Show me one quote from a Muslim leader telling the Islamist fighters that their actions are against the teachings of the Koran and they contradict Mohamed’s teaching.
Just one who will tell the Islamists that their actions are in violation of the Koran.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.
Show me one quote from a Muslim leader telling the Islamist fighters that their actions are against the teachings of the Koran and they contradict Mohamed’s teaching.
Just one who will tell the Islamists that their actions are in violation of the Koran.
P
Peter_Plato
Guest
These are fair points.
However, they seem to miss the point that at least one source of the problem appears to be endemic within Islam itself.
The leader of ISIS has a PhD in Islamic theology from the University of Baghdad. Many who promote Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and similar radical groups have similar qualifications. Several leading Islamic clerics have been banned recently from European countries and Great Britain for giving incendiary sermons, including Mohamad al-Arefe a university professor from Kind Saud University in Saudi Arabia who also happens to be the imam in the academy mosque of the Saudi navy.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamad_al-Arefe
However, they seem to miss the point that at least one source of the problem appears to be endemic within Islam itself.
The leader of ISIS has a PhD in Islamic theology from the University of Baghdad. Many who promote Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and similar radical groups have similar qualifications. Several leading Islamic clerics have been banned recently from European countries and Great Britain for giving incendiary sermons, including Mohamad al-Arefe a university professor from Kind Saud University in Saudi Arabia who also happens to be the imam in the academy mosque of the Saudi navy.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamad_al-Arefe
S
Son_of_Niall
Guest
P
Padres1969
Guest
And Saudi Arabia is a radical Islamic country. They are not representative of most Muslim majority nations or people.
O
Ontheway
Guest
Not quite. We are all against violence and hate speech and in favor of love and peace.The post above you.
But, I am looking for specific statements directed at specific groups (ISIS) telling them that they are contradicting the Koran.
O
Ontheway
Guest
But, they fund the construction of many if not most of the mosques in the west, and they supply the imams who spread their extreme version of Islam (Wahhabi) in our communities.
They may not represent all Sunni Muslims, but they finance and train many in the west. And they control Mecca. They exercise great influence and have the money to finance many of the educational institutions in the west.
Saudi Arabia is not just one Islamic country. It wield power and influence.
O
Ontheway
Guest
dw.com/en/godfather-of-terror-saudi-arabia-and-is/a-18876511
See this very interesting article on the role of Saudi royalty.
See this very interesting article on the role of Saudi royalty.
P
Padres1969
Guest
Do you have Proof of your claims? Specifically that they’re supplying the money for most mosques and imams?
H
hasantas
Guest
Most of Muslims condemn what happened in Paris and all Muslims condemn the persecutions in wheresoever. I think Muslims who ignore what happened in Paris have such thoughts that everyday hundreds of Muslims die in Syria or in somevhere else. But western countries or others do not ignore that and treat issue as political or economical benefits but non treat problem as humanely. And also most of western countires do not intend to take refugees and many of them die in sea etc. Israel persecute Muslims and western countries ignore…
So the problem is not religious but perhaps political and emotional.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Hasantas…do you know that Middle East Christians are practically banned from entry into the USA and France?
Those Muslims I am concerned about are those who violate the sacred space of other faiths. I am drawn to adoration of God and thus prefer a quiet, contemplative place.
Those Muslims I am concerned about are those who violate the sacred space of other faiths. I am drawn to adoration of God and thus prefer a quiet, contemplative place.
H
hasantas
Guest
=Peter Plato;13469238]
If people ultimately would do what Islam say they would be like angels.
Yes allways there have been and there are many groups who go/went wrong during prophet and after Him and now. But do not forget that the majority percentage of Muslims went and go right in religion and life.
And if Muslims could solve their problems so most of others would prefer Islam.
Christianity is a holy religion and Jesus is a great prophet but Christians have complex doctrine of trinity which was derived after Jesus and conflict wth Tawhid. And Christians think that Jesus was God which conflict with attributes and acts of God. And Christinas say Holy Spirit(Angel Gabriel) was god too which cannot be true and has no proof from Bible.
I think that is natural.
I agree with that very of Muslims do not do what Islam says. Islam say be honest and do not lie but many people(Muslims, ofcourse they are humanbeing with weak disposition) do and deceive. Islam say be merciful even for animals and plants too but some people(Muslims…) persecute.
If people ultimately would do what Islam say they would be like angels.
Could you point one of unmoderate word of Prophet Muhammad? Muhammad was taught by God who can see all times.
Yes allways there have been and there are many groups who go/went wrong during prophet and after Him and now. But do not forget that the majority percentage of Muslims went and go right in religion and life.
You are right. The problem seems to be caused from Islam itself but in fact that is not so and Muslims failure to explain or others do not intend to understand. And some Muslims failure to implement Islam correctly. But the world is not perfectly and people are in exam to do rigt or wrong. Although they are many who do wrong but they are very many who do right.
Muslims believe that the Islam is the unique uncorrupted religion of God. Muslims want all people understand that to have salvation. And that is because of why they are so keen in religion. Muslims have many proofs for that.
And if Muslims could solve their problems so most of others would prefer Islam.
Christianity is a holy religion and Jesus is a great prophet but Christians have complex doctrine of trinity which was derived after Jesus and conflict wth Tawhid. And Christians think that Jesus was God which conflict with attributes and acts of God. And Christinas say Holy Spirit(Angel Gabriel) was god too which cannot be true and has no proof from Bible.
For instance Ottoman state governed for centuries and there have been and there are allways Churchs and Christians. Ofcourse there have been/are compulsion on non-Muslims but Muslims never impose others to be Islam because if someone get be Islam forcibly indeed he is not Muslim but Munafik and Islam do not want people to be Munafik.
When western countries conquered Istanbul in earlier 19. centure they asked Muslims 6 questions to be answered. By that they intended to humiliate Islam and show that as if there is some lack in Islam. And they did that when they got power over Muslims.
I think that is natural.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Christianity is indeed complex in regards to the understanding of God.
But the message of Christ, besides affirming He is truly the face of the God, the Heavenly Father, and calling us to lay down our life for our neighbor, and restoring us to the Father, Christ is saying we are truly meant to be family to each other.
You go back to the beginning of mankind…it is Adam and Eve…our names…but the reality that the foundation of human beings is family.
Christ is the atonement for sin…the fulfillment of the ancient sacrifice on the altar of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem for our sins. We can do nothing of ourselves to atone for our sins before God.
Only God Himself can atone for sin. And He gave us His Son. The precursor first came through Abraham obeying God to sacrifice his own son. He was stopped by Angel Gabriel to sacrifice the ram instead.
Truth is consistent. It doesn’t change.
God does not reveal Himself and then after so many hundreds of years, contradict Himself.
God can do anything and be always constant. He created the Natural Law and He Himself fulfills it. And Christ IS, He is One with the Father, but became carnated through the Blessed Mother and Holy Spirit.
Christ restored us back to the Heavenly Father, He restored us to become our true selves, and to restore love and life with our neighbor.
Christ restores us and all of creation back to God. On the Cross, it was written, all rises up to Him. He broke the power over sin and death.
Christ is the Eternal Word through which this world was created. I thought there are a few lines in the Quoran that say the same truth. Is that true, Hasantas?
Have you gone to New Age Islam…www.newageislam.com? They are working on the concerns you have for Islam.
But the message of Christ, besides affirming He is truly the face of the God, the Heavenly Father, and calling us to lay down our life for our neighbor, and restoring us to the Father, Christ is saying we are truly meant to be family to each other.
You go back to the beginning of mankind…it is Adam and Eve…our names…but the reality that the foundation of human beings is family.
Christ is the atonement for sin…the fulfillment of the ancient sacrifice on the altar of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem for our sins. We can do nothing of ourselves to atone for our sins before God.
Only God Himself can atone for sin. And He gave us His Son. The precursor first came through Abraham obeying God to sacrifice his own son. He was stopped by Angel Gabriel to sacrifice the ram instead.
Truth is consistent. It doesn’t change.
God does not reveal Himself and then after so many hundreds of years, contradict Himself.
God can do anything and be always constant. He created the Natural Law and He Himself fulfills it. And Christ IS, He is One with the Father, but became carnated through the Blessed Mother and Holy Spirit.
Christ restored us back to the Heavenly Father, He restored us to become our true selves, and to restore love and life with our neighbor.
Christ restores us and all of creation back to God. On the Cross, it was written, all rises up to Him. He broke the power over sin and death.
Christ is the Eternal Word through which this world was created. I thought there are a few lines in the Quoran that say the same truth. Is that true, Hasantas?
Have you gone to New Age Islam…www.newageislam.com? They are working on the concerns you have for Islam.
H
hasantas
Guest
Jesus was not atonement for our sins but was the way to be forgived. We can be forgived for our sins if we repent. Jesus showed the way.
(For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:17)
Abraham did not intend to sacrifice His son for sins (Ishmael ancestor of Muhammad) but He did that to fulfil pledge which He promised before. And God did not allow Abraham do that because God do not want human sacrifice. If God do not that how could God sacrifice a divine being.(A divine being cannot be sacrificed!)
Only God can forgive sins but God do not need to be atonement for sins.
Yes, God does not reveal Himself and then after so many hundreds of years, contradict Himself. There is no obvious verses in Bible which prove Trinity and God to be sacrificed. All these were established later by people through strained interpretation.
God did not say that He incarnated but the spirit which God created got flesh. God’s spirit(indeed God has not spirit but divine and eternal essence) do not incarnate. God is out of time and matter.
Before Jesus many prophets were tortured and killed! And nobody can kill or torture God. And God do not kill or torture Himself through mankind. God can feel and see everything without being human. God do not suffer and nobody can harm God.
You see people interpreted Bible in very fantastic ways. But we can interpret Bible exact properly according to Qur’an. I can do that and I see that.
H
hasantas
Guest
Could you give an example? Ofcourse except wars and some individual cases.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Hasantas for your response.
You skip the Old Testament and the Lord’s preparation of His chosen people to bring forth the Messiah. You are bypassing Exodus, the Temple, daily sacrifice.
This waiting for the Messiah…itself was controversial…a rising and a falling for many of Israel. There were those who recognized Christ as the Messiah as well as many others who did not.
And…what is different here, is that Christ chose 12 witnesses. He did not come to expecting people to believe in Him after His death and resurrection. The 12 apostles with Christ as Cornerstone, established His Church on earth, the Breaking of the Bread on the evening of the Passover.
I could go on and on.
But there is the issue of Christ having witnesses, of fulfilling Scriptures of the Old Testament.
Christ is the final revelation of God, His Son. And through Him we are restored to Christ and made new in the daily sacrifice of the Mass.
That is consistency of faith and fulfillment. Looking at Christ on the Cross…witnesses there as well…it was said all things were raised up to Him.
So we see all of creation through Christ’s death and resurrection. Our churches are resplendent of God’s splendor of His creation…all forms of praise to Him through Christ. So the interior of our churches maintain the altar, we have pictures, statues, decorations, sacred space.
Islam goes in a very direct way and there are those within it who do not understand. The Trinity is simply the abbreviation for 3 in 1. Certainly Islam uses phrases now that were not used in its beginning. Theology develops the same, constant truths but helps us understand our religion in the world in which we live.
I want to ask…what do you think of Muslims killing innocent people to go to heaven? or killing Muslims who want to go to another religion? I ask because then Allah sounds so destructive and vengeful if this were the case and completely contradicts Christ. So truth does not contradict itself.
You skip the Old Testament and the Lord’s preparation of His chosen people to bring forth the Messiah. You are bypassing Exodus, the Temple, daily sacrifice.
This waiting for the Messiah…itself was controversial…a rising and a falling for many of Israel. There were those who recognized Christ as the Messiah as well as many others who did not.
And…what is different here, is that Christ chose 12 witnesses. He did not come to expecting people to believe in Him after His death and resurrection. The 12 apostles with Christ as Cornerstone, established His Church on earth, the Breaking of the Bread on the evening of the Passover.
I could go on and on.
But there is the issue of Christ having witnesses, of fulfilling Scriptures of the Old Testament.
Christ is the final revelation of God, His Son. And through Him we are restored to Christ and made new in the daily sacrifice of the Mass.
That is consistency of faith and fulfillment. Looking at Christ on the Cross…witnesses there as well…it was said all things were raised up to Him.
So we see all of creation through Christ’s death and resurrection. Our churches are resplendent of God’s splendor of His creation…all forms of praise to Him through Christ. So the interior of our churches maintain the altar, we have pictures, statues, decorations, sacred space.
Islam goes in a very direct way and there are those within it who do not understand. The Trinity is simply the abbreviation for 3 in 1. Certainly Islam uses phrases now that were not used in its beginning. Theology develops the same, constant truths but helps us understand our religion in the world in which we live.
I want to ask…what do you think of Muslims killing innocent people to go to heaven? or killing Muslims who want to go to another religion? I ask because then Allah sounds so destructive and vengeful if this were the case and completely contradicts Christ. So truth does not contradict itself.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I am studying more of Turkey.
The Ottomans were a mixed peoples of surrounding areas of Asia Minor and included Central Asians. Ars Arslan was the beginning Turk and was a marauder and conquerer through murder and pillaging.
When fighting Christians, the Turks had their musicians play a particular military music that was played only when fighting our people, and it terrifed them.
Eastern Christianity was centralized in Constantinople and was so up to so many hundreds of years ago. The great Hagia Sophia was a tremendous Christian cathedral now staked by the four pillars of Islam, and if there were an earthquake there today, they would collapse.
There was the Ottoman Child Tax where the first born or most excellent Christian son was taken from his parents and made into a janissery that was used to fight Christians…and they were the ones allowed to go into Constantinople, killing, plundering, chopping Emperor Constantine IV to pieces.
Now knowing its history it pains me to see the Hagia Sophia in the state that it is.
Yes we have the Armenian genocide and I cried when I saw old photos of Christian girls, naked and raped, and hung on crosses in the country side to die, while Turkish soldiers took off on their horses.
And then we look at the Bible and the noting of Smyrna to hold on to its faith to the end.
Smyrna was destroyed by the Turks in 1922 with American ships standing by ordered by Admiral Burke to only save Americans. They entered first by parachute with rifles, entering houses and killing the men. Women and girls were raped. There were those who were shot and thrown into the sea, and it got so bad the American sailors were begging to allow them to rescue these poor people. In the end, Smyrna was burnt to the ground. Turkish professors have done a great cover up of preventing this from being better known to the world. A military man named, Horton, was an eye witness and wrote about it later in 1922.
I was overseas. That is when Cyprus was attacked by Turkey, much the same manner and method, the women and girls raped, atrocities.
Now Turkey through Edgordan has built a 1000 room palace and is preparing to see the rise of the Ottoman empire again. Russia has had wars with Turkey and won 7 out of 9.
The Russian jet that was shot down was over a region that was the kingpin that brought down the Ottoman Empire, Turkman Mtn. And the Russian pilot was killed by a Turkish Lone Wolf…the same association as Atca who conspired with the Bulgarian KGB to assasinate Pope John Paul II.
There is one military American general McKinley who is now very aware of what is happening in Turkey, its ambitions.
Likewise we know of Egypt, Syria, Palestine…teeming Christian populations…
I cannot look at them, I already have cried for the Orthodox and all I can do now is go to vespers at a nearby Greek Orthodox church.
www.Serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm
You Tube: Smyrna: The Destruction of a Cosmopolitan City 1900-1922
Another…Interview with Alexander Kritkoeff: The Destruction of a Cosmopolitan City
Another on You Tube: Untold Greek Genocide
And another You tube, showing the beginning pictures of the raped girls put on crosses and left to die…the Armenians being attacked a number of times before the Great Genocide, “The Armenian Journey of an Armenian Genocide”…
With dhimmitude, taxation, many families lost their faith by 2 or 3 generations.
The Ottomans were a mixed peoples of surrounding areas of Asia Minor and included Central Asians. Ars Arslan was the beginning Turk and was a marauder and conquerer through murder and pillaging.
When fighting Christians, the Turks had their musicians play a particular military music that was played only when fighting our people, and it terrifed them.
Eastern Christianity was centralized in Constantinople and was so up to so many hundreds of years ago. The great Hagia Sophia was a tremendous Christian cathedral now staked by the four pillars of Islam, and if there were an earthquake there today, they would collapse.
There was the Ottoman Child Tax where the first born or most excellent Christian son was taken from his parents and made into a janissery that was used to fight Christians…and they were the ones allowed to go into Constantinople, killing, plundering, chopping Emperor Constantine IV to pieces.
Now knowing its history it pains me to see the Hagia Sophia in the state that it is.
Yes we have the Armenian genocide and I cried when I saw old photos of Christian girls, naked and raped, and hung on crosses in the country side to die, while Turkish soldiers took off on their horses.
And then we look at the Bible and the noting of Smyrna to hold on to its faith to the end.
Smyrna was destroyed by the Turks in 1922 with American ships standing by ordered by Admiral Burke to only save Americans. They entered first by parachute with rifles, entering houses and killing the men. Women and girls were raped. There were those who were shot and thrown into the sea, and it got so bad the American sailors were begging to allow them to rescue these poor people. In the end, Smyrna was burnt to the ground. Turkish professors have done a great cover up of preventing this from being better known to the world. A military man named, Horton, was an eye witness and wrote about it later in 1922.
I was overseas. That is when Cyprus was attacked by Turkey, much the same manner and method, the women and girls raped, atrocities.
Now Turkey through Edgordan has built a 1000 room palace and is preparing to see the rise of the Ottoman empire again. Russia has had wars with Turkey and won 7 out of 9.
The Russian jet that was shot down was over a region that was the kingpin that brought down the Ottoman Empire, Turkman Mtn. And the Russian pilot was killed by a Turkish Lone Wolf…the same association as Atca who conspired with the Bulgarian KGB to assasinate Pope John Paul II.
There is one military American general McKinley who is now very aware of what is happening in Turkey, its ambitions.
Likewise we know of Egypt, Syria, Palestine…teeming Christian populations…
I cannot look at them, I already have cried for the Orthodox and all I can do now is go to vespers at a nearby Greek Orthodox church.
www.Serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm
You Tube: Smyrna: The Destruction of a Cosmopolitan City 1900-1922
Another…Interview with Alexander Kritkoeff: The Destruction of a Cosmopolitan City
Another on You Tube: Untold Greek Genocide
And another You tube, showing the beginning pictures of the raped girls put on crosses and left to die…the Armenians being attacked a number of times before the Great Genocide, “The Armenian Journey of an Armenian Genocide”…
With dhimmitude, taxation, many families lost their faith by 2 or 3 generations.
- Status