The Muslim Mary

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famdigy said:
I’m not sure which Vedas this quote is taken from, I am basing this on the following article by Stephen Knapp.
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        At the beginning of the book of John in the New Testament, it states, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This is actually a verbatim translation of the Vedic Sanskrit mantra: “Prajapatirvai idamagraasit, tasya vag dvitiyaa asit, vag vai paramam Brahma.”
Source: Christianity and the Vedic teachings within it

The similarities between these two quotes are too close to possibly disregard and far from the Gospel having influenced the writing of the Vedas, we know that the Vedas are among the most ancient of all world Scriptures. Clearly, these words found their way from the Vedas of India into the Gospel ‘according to’ John. Many will ask, or rather they should ask, how can this be if the New Testament is the Word of God, written by Divine Inspiration?
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OK.

I looked at your source and he doesn’t cite any source either. He just makes a claim. I did not find this quote in the written Vedic manuscripts, so I assume that it is an oral chant. Oral chants cannot be sourced or dated without some form of written record. It is entirely possible that the information flow you’re implying was in the opposite direction.

Also, you appear to have changed your source from your first citation to your second.

In the first, you have a sentence by sentence breakdown, but in the second, you quote a paragraph. Unless, perhaps, you read sanskrit and were able to make this breakdown for us.

I looked at the website of the author and read some of the claims in the work that your citation is from. I have to say that I am not inclined to qualify this person as a credible source.

Among some other fruitcakey things, he is trying to claim on his website that the Taj Mahal was not built when it was and that there is a worldwide conspiracy to obscure that it is, in reality, a Vedic temple built hundreds of years earlier and not the mausoleum of a beloved wife.

The author that you are citing is trying to draw likenesses between vague and sometimes unlike events. Like this:
At the time when Krishna left this planet, His foot was pierced with an arrow, while Jesus’ side was pierced with a spear.
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Comparisons like this are simply not credible. Using this kind of logic, I could show that Islam and Mayan religions are actually identical and that in reality, the Islamic god is Quetzlcoatl.
 
Is there anything in the Islamic account (ie. Mary’s childhood, or life before Jesus) that Christians believe?..but this information is simpl not in scripture? Or is it all misguided?

I can’t understand why they would make things up.

S
 
Now you’re really stretching, famdigy.

The vedas do not mention any Biblical character by name and any resemblance is purely vague resemblances that you have to twist and spin to make them fit.

In contrast, the Quran contains EXPLICIT statements about Biblical characters. There are also hadiths that show he only revealed some rather erroneous verses directly AFTER talking to three Christians.

Hence, it is not the same situation. I think you have to stop making rather far-fetched apologetics and just look at the facts as they stand - Muhammad’s version of the Biblical stories are so close to the NT apocrypha that he cannot have been the messenger of a true god.

Also, if you look at the behavior of Muhammad and the timing of revelations from the Islamic Allah, you’d see that his revelations are entirely SITUATIONAL and CONVENIENT.

If Muhammad wanted something - lo and behold, Islamic Allah will come to his aid.

If Muhammad heard something - lo and behold, Islamic Allah will also make a convenient revelation immediately after Muhammad had gathered the (erroneous) information. It seems Islamic Allah only knows what Muhammad knows.
 
Abira said:
Is there anything in the Islamic account (ie. Mary’s childhood, or life before Jesus) that Christians believe?..but this information is simpl not in scripture? Or is it all misguided?

I can’t understand why they would make things up.

S
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Moslems make things up because Muhammed was confused; he got some ideas about Christianity from Christian heretics. That’s why he thought that Christians worship Mary as part of the Trinity.
 
Montalban said:
Moslems make things up because Muhammed was confused; he got some ideas about Christianity from Christian heretics. That’s why he thought that Christians worship Mary as part of the Trinity.
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Kindly produce your proof.

Where in the Qur’an is it stated that Mary is part of the Trinity?
 
THE QURANIC VERSION OF THE TRINITY
The Qur’an has its own version of the trinity:
al-Ma’idah 5:16
‏واذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم ءانت قلت للناس اتخذوني وامي الهين من دون الله قال سبحانك مايكون لي ان اقول ماليس لي بحق ان كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم مافي نفسي ولااعلم مافي نفسك انك انت علام الغيوب
Wa-ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta lilnnasi ittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahi qala subhanaka ma yakoonu lee an aqoola ma laysa lee bihaqqin in kuntu qultuhu faqad AAalimtahu taAAlamu ma fee nafsee wala aAAlamu ma fee nafsika innaka anta AAallamu alghuyoobi

Maulana Ali And when Allah will say: O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah? He will say: Glory be to Thee! it was not for me to say what I had no right to (say). If I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen

They also argue for saying that he is Son of Allah by saying he had no known father and spoke in infancy which is something never done by any human being. **They use as evidence for their claim that He is the third of three * the argument that Allah says: We did, We commanded, We created and We judged *, and whereas if He was one, He would say: I did, I judged, I commanded and I created; but it is He, Jesus and Maryam. ****The Qur’an was revealed addressing all these arguments.[27] Ref: Abu Muhammad Abd al-Malik Ibn Hisham al-Maafiri, Al-Sirah Al-Nabawiyyah, 1998, Volume II, Dar al-Hadith: Cairo (Egypt), pp. 181-182; also A. Guillaume, The Life Of Muhammad: A Translation Of Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, 1998 (13th impression), Oxford University Press: Karachi (Pakistan), pp. 271-272.
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/MuhBible.html
 
hamba2han said:
Kindly produce your proof.

Where in the Qur’an is it stated that Mary is part of the Trinity?
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Are you saying allah didn’t say for gabriel to say that mohamed said:
And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah? " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #116)
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One of those three (allah, gabriel, or mohamed) thought the Christians in the time of mohamed worshiped Mary along with Christ and allah.
 
Typo - the verse above is 5:116.

Ibn Kathir’s tafsir on the verse showing Jesus denying that he taught Christians the trinity of Allah, Mary and himself.

Allah will also speak to His servant and Messenger, Isa son of Maryam, peace be upon him, saying to him on the Day of Resurrection in the presence of those who worshipped Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah,

﴿يعِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَءَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِى وَأُمِّىَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ﴾

(O Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah’) This is a threat and a warning to Christians, chastising them in public, as Qatadah and others said, and Qatadah mentioned this Ayah as evidence,

﴿هَـذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ الصَّـدِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ﴾

("This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth.’’) ﴿5:119﴾ Allah’s statement,

﴿سُبْحَـنَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِى أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِى بِحَقٍّ﴾

(Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say)…) contains Allah’s direction for Isa to utter the perfect answer. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said, "Isa will be taught his argument in reply to what Allah will ask him,

﴿وَإِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَءَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِى وَأُمِّىَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ﴾

(And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah’) ﴿5:116﴾.’’ Abu Hurayrah then narrated that the Prophet said that Allah taught `Isa to say,

﴿سُبْحَـنَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِى أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِى بِحَقٍّ﴾

(Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say)…) Ath-Thawri narrated this Hadith from Mamar from Ibn Tawus from Tawus. Isa’s statement,

﴿إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ﴾

(Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it.) means, had I said it, You, my Lord, would have known it, for nothing escapes Your knowledge.
 
Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur’an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title “Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur’an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur’an as a “member” of the Trinity, is simply not true.

While the Qur’an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur’an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur’an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur’an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.

The following is an excerpt from a website:

a) The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171 and 5:73. In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.

b) The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.

c) Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.

d) One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.

e) These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.

f) In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.

g) These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.

h) As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.

The Truth
The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the "Mother of God" and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.
 
We know Muhammad disagree with the Trinity. But 5:116 accuses Jesus of teaching the teaching of Jesus, Mary as two gods BESIDES Allah.

So we have:

Jesus
Mary
Allah.

= Trinity (Muhammad’s misconception of what it is).

This is what the hadith says:
They use as evidence for their claim that **HE IS THE THIRD OF THREE **** the argument that Allah says: We did, We commanded, We created and We judged *, and whereas if He was one, He would say: I did, I judged, I commanded and I created; but it is **He, Jesus and Maryam. ***

Obviously Muhammad disagree with what these Christians told him - or thought they told him. Hence out comes a situational verse from Allah to explain his disagreement with the Trinity. Unfortunately he was misinformed and hence his misconception found its way into the Quran.
 
Hamba, let me ask you something? When you pray to God, what do you envision as you do it? Nothing or what?

Vickie
 
Hamba, when you pray to God, what do you envision when you do it? Nothing or what?

Vickie
 
hamba2han said:
Christians often accuse Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur’an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title “Mother of God” by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Qur’an (5:116) most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur’an as a “member” of the Trinity, is simply not true.

While the Qur’an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur’an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur’an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur’an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.

The following is an excerpt from a website:

a) The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171 and 5:73. In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.

b) The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.

c) Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.

d) One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.

e) These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.

f) In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.

g) These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.

h) As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers.

The Truth

The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the “Mother of God” and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity.
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:yawn:

Vickie
 
Booklover said:
Hamba, let me ask you something? When you pray to God, what do you envision as you do it? Nothing or what?
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Muslims are given a ‘touchstone’ in the Qur’an to enable them to determine whether or not anything that may see or come across is really their Creator.
*
Al-Qur’an, Sura Al-Ikhlas*
**Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
**
What this sura says is that if we see or even imagine anything which even remotely resembles any of His creations, then we can be 100% sure that the object that we are “envisioning” is not our Creator and hence it must NEVER be worshiped.
 
hamba2han said:
Muslims are given a ‘touchstone’ in the Qur’an to enable them to determine whether or not anything that may see or come across is really their Creator.
*
Al-Qur’an, Sura Al-Ikhlas*
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

What this sura says is that if we see or even imagine anything which even remotely resembles any of His creations, then we can be 100% sure that the object that we are “envisioning” is not our Creator and hence it must NEVER be worshiped.
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Hi

You have described it in a very beautiful way.

Thanks
 
hamba2han said:
Muslims are given a ‘touchstone’ in the Qur’an to enable them to determine whether or not anything that may see or come across is really their Creator.

Al-Qur’an, Sura Al-Ikhlas
**Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; **
**Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; **
**He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; **
And there is none like unto Him.

What this sura says is that if we see or even imagine anything which even remotely resembles any of His creations, then we can be 100% sure that the object that we are “envisioning” is not our Creator and hence it must NEVER be worshiped.
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God said “Let us create man in our image”.What does that mean to you?

So when you think of god, you see nothing in your mind?

Vickie
 
Was it THIS documentary you saw Abira by any chance? If so then it was very good.

And for those spreading the oft-repeated lie of the Qur’an claiming Christians worship Mary as part of the Trinity, address the arguments made in THIS thread showing this to be false, or retract your claims.
 
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