The Mystery of God. What the Kingdom of the Messiah is really like.

[Valke2]

I agree that all nations are blessed through the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I think this blessing is repeated to each of them. Do you view this as a promise of reward in the afterlife, or a promise of blessing in this world?

 

[ryanoneil]

I agree that all nations are blessed through the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I think this blessing is repeated to each of them. Do you view this as a promise of reward in the afterlife, or a promise of blessing in this world?

Both. The blessing is in this world, but not of this world. Most Christians, and some non-Christians, believe Jesus is the Lord’s Anointed, the Son of God - the titles that by God’s unalterable promise belong to the Son of David who reigns as King of Israel. (This is the key to understanding the Kingdom)

Just as David and Solomon ruled not only over Israel but also the surrounding nations, Jesus rules over Israel and all the nations of the world. And, His dynasty and rule over it is everlasting.

This gets to the point of the whole thread then. What His kingdom is, how we belong to it, and how living in the kingdom in this life leads to everlasting life in the next.

I don’t know if that answers your question. In case you want to respond, I’ll wait to say more.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Valke2]

Ok. What strikes me as most important in your last post is the issue of how we are to live now in order to have a share in the next world. That sounds like a subject worth pursuing.

 

[ryanoneil]

Ok. What strikes me as most important in your last post is the issue of how we are to live now in order to have a share in the next world. That sounds like a subject worth pursuing.

OK! There is more to it than how we live though. I think it’s more about our submission and loyalty to God’s rule over us. God’s rule being the Kingdom present to us while we are alive. By entering the Kingdom now, we also have a share in it, in the next world.

How we are to live is best explained in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus gave us a good citizens’ manual for life in the Kingdom. It goes from (Matthew 5:3-7:27).

The poor in spirit, the mourners, the meek, the seekers of righteousness, the merciful, the pure, the peacemakers, the persecuted - these are the people to whom the kingdom belongs (Matthew 5:3-11).

Jesus refers to the commandments of the Old Testament . “Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (see Matthew 5:19).

But then Jesus tells us the true citizens of the kingdom are held to an even higher standard than the law of the OT. He fulfills the Torah by incorporating it, and superceding it, in the New Torah. (The law of Christ) The spirit of the law, not the letter, is the guiding principle of the fulfilled law. (Matthew 5:21-48) Catholics, at least, believe this is the fulfillment of (Jeremiah 31:33-34). Belief in Jesus and the grace of the Holy Spirit place this law in our hearts.

That is why I refered to God’s blessing to the nations as “in this world, but not of it.” In this world’s kingdoms, the rich and powerful rule. But the poor and forgotten who surrender to and serve God (who is the only true ruler of the world) inherit the only kingdom that matters. Here and in the next life.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Valke2]

The poor in spirit, the mourners, the meek, the seekers of righteousness, the merciful, the pure, the peacemakers, the persecuted - these are the people to whom the kingdom belongs (Matthew 5:3-11).

What is meant by the poor in spirit?

Jesus refers to the commandments of the Old Testament . “Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (see Matthew 5:19).

So far, so good .

But then Jesus tells us the true citizens of the kingdom are held to an even higher standard than the law of the OT. He fulfills the Torah by incorporating it, and superceding it, in the New Torah. (The law of Christ) The spirit of the law, not the letter, is the guiding principle of the fulfilled law. (Matthew 5:21-48) Catholics, at least, believe this is the fulfillment of (Jeremiah 31:33-34). Belief in Jesus and the grace of the Holy Spirit place this law in our hearts.

I can kinda see a shifting of emphasis to the spirit vs. letter making sense. There’s always a danger that our religion can become stultified by adherence to law without adherence to spirit. There are a few explanations of this given in Talmud, which cautions against embracing halacha (law) without embracing aggada (spirit or story behind the law).

As to increasing or superceding the law, we have a tradition of what is called “building a fense around the Torah.” This comes from the commandment to build a fence around one’s roof, so as to protect someone who might accidently fall. When we build a fence around the torah, we are making additional rules/laws to expand our obligations and thus ensure we keep the original law. This is done to a great extent in laws regarding keeping shabbat. We expand the holiness of the day by increasing our obligations. To some extent, I see Jesus building such a fence in his sermon on the mount. He’s giving his own Torah, as it were. It is the requirement that we, instead of following Torah, have to follow Jesus where things get a bit sticky for Jews.

That is why I refered to God’s blessing to the nations as “in this world, but not of it.” In this world’s kingdoms, the rich and powerful rule. But the poor and forgotten who surrender to and serve God (who is the only true ruler of the world) inherit the only kingdom that matters. Here and in the next life.

And I suppose as Jews, we would emphasize the importance of making this world a better place for the poor. Obviously, Christianity is concerned with this as well. So are we just splitting hairs on a matter of emphasis here?

Peace,

 

[ryanoneil]

What is meant by the poor in spirit?

They are the poor, in their humility, who are close to God’s heart. Like the Judeans at the time of the Babylonian conquest. Like the poor in the Psalms who express their their deep devotion to God’s goodness while they wait for God’s saving love.

I can kinda see a shifting of emphasis to the spirit vs. letter making sense. There’s always a danger that our religion can become stultified by adherence to law without adherence to spirit. There are a few explanations of this given in Talmud, which cautions against embracing halacha (law) without embracing aggada (spirit or story behind the law).

As to increasing or superceding the law, we have a tradition of what is called “building a fense around the Torah.” This comes from the commandment to build a fence around one’s roof, so as to protect someone who might accidently fall. When we build a fence around the torah, we are making additional rules/laws to expand our obligations and thus ensure we keep the original law. This is done to a great extent in laws regarding keeping shabbat. We expand the holiness of the day by increasing our obligations.

I think I understand what you are saying. Just as the Law and Prophets changed social teaching for their time, with out changing the essential principles of the divine law itself. The danger for both Jews and Christians has always been when law become “false legalism” and fails divine law.

To some extent, I see Jesus building such a fence in his sermon on the mount. He’s giving his own Torah, as it were. It is the requirement that we, instead of following Torah, have to follow Jesus where things get a bit sticky for Jews.

Yes Jesus is in the the same tradition of the Law and the Prophets as a man, but I understand your dilema with his divinity. Jesus taught “as one who has authority” (Mat 7:28) and the people where alarmed. Jesus said “It was said to them of old . . . but** “I”** say to you. . .”

He openly claims that he himself is on the same exalted level as the lawgiver. Which means he is either misappropriating God’s majesty, which would be terrible, or else, he really does stand on the same exalted level as God.

Obviously, we are not going to resolve this difference of opinion in a few post. I would like to discuss an aspect of this, as it relates to the topic, if you don’t mind. Having to do with the international aspect of the Davidic Kingdom.

I’d love to talk about the sermon on the mount as the new Sinai also, but that should probably be its own thread.

And I suppose as Jews, we would emphasize the importance of making this world a better place for the poor. Obviously, Christianity is concerned with this as well. So are we just splitting hairs on a matter of emphasis here?

Peace,

Yes, both of us believe in social justice.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

I’m posting with the assumption that Jesus is king in David’s line. The Christ, the Anointed One.

1 Samuel 24:7 *He said to his men, “The LORD forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the LORD’S anointed, as to lay a hand on him, for he is the Lord’s anointed.” *

And like David, Jesus was the son of God, who has all nations to “the ends of the earth” for his inheritance.

Psalm 2:7 * "I will proclaim the decree of the LORD, who said to me, ‘You are my son; today I am your father. Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth’ "*

But there has always been a strong sense in the Old Testament that an earthly monarch contradicts God’s sovereignty over Israel

Judges 8:23 *But Gideon answered them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you. The LORD must rule over you.” *

1 Samuel 12:12 Yet, when you saw Nahash, king of the Ammonites, advancing against you, you said to me, ‘Not so, but a king must rule us,’ even though the LORD your God is your king.

1 Samuel 17:19-20 They said to Samuel, “Pray to the LORD your God for us, your servants, that we may not die for having added to all our other sins the evil of asking for a king.” “Do not fear,” Samuel answered them. "It is true you have committed all this evil; still, you must not turn from the LORD, but must worship him with your whole heart.

What God did with David and the Ark, was fulfilled in Jesus. The Lord God once again walked with His people as He did in the Garden of Eden.

With this understanding I’d like to jump back to the Sermon on the Mount when I get time.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes Jesus is in the the same tradition of the Law and the Prophets as a man, but I understand your dilema with his divinity. Jesus taught “as one who has authority” (Mat 7:28) and the people where alarmed. Jesus said “It was said to them of old . . . but** “I”** say to you. . .”

I don’t see that Jesus was really creating any new Law, he was just defining how existing laws should be viewed. As the sages also do in the Talmud.

So none of that would really make him a God, or a wild deviant either. Just someone reminding us to use common sense when observing Torah.

Like, don’t pretend you are all holy just because you haven’t had actual sex with anyone other than your spouse, but are still sneaking into the bathroom with a Playboy or something. Etc.

 

[Valke2]

They are the poor, in their humility, who are close to God’s heart. Like the Judeans at the time of the Babylonian conquest. Like the poor in the Psalms who express their their deep devotion to God’s goodness while they wait for God’s saving love.

Thanks. I was reading “poor in spirit” as lacking in spirit (as opposed to “rich in spirit”).

 

[ryanoneil]

Thanks. I was reading “poor in spirit” as lacking in spirit (as opposed to “rich in spirit”).

Your welcome.

I used to think the same thing. I suppose it would be more clear if it said the poor who are in spirit.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[BibleSteve]

Throughout the world, millions pray the “our Father” or “Lord’s Prayer”, asking for God’s Kingdom to come. However, when asked, many are confused about what that Kingdom really is.

Here are 3 short MP3 audio files explaining God’s Kingdom from the Jehovah’s Witnesses Podcast site (www.jw.org) from the January 1, 2008 Watchtower magazine.

A Request Made Around The World

What Is God’s Kingdom?

When Will God’s Kingdom Come?

Just click on the links and they will start playing for you.

Steve

 

[ryanoneil]

I don’t see that Jesus was really creating any new Law, he was just defining how existing laws should be viewed. As the sages also do in the Talmud.

It is much more than that. Keeping in mind the Beatitudes (Mat 5:3-12) Jesus is expressing the meaning of discipleship, which is lived out by following Him (following God). In other words, the Beatitudes describe Jesus first, and His disciples who give themselves over completely to follow Him.

Jesus is He who has no place to lay his head (Mat 8:20) is truly poor; who can say, “Come to me. . . for I am meek and lowly in heart” (Mat 11:28-29) He is the one who is pure of heart and so unceasingly beholds God. He is the peacemaker, he is the one who suffers for God’s sake.

This is part of the mystery of Christ himself, and is a call for us to be in communion with Him.

So none of that would really make him a God, or a wild deviant either. Just someone reminding us to use common sense when observing Torah.

Jesus is saying the exact opposite. Jesus is setting a higher standard because the OT Torah was unable to save. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah that does save. Look at (Mat 5:11) Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.

The “I” of Jesus himself, fidelity to his person, becomes the criterion of righteousness and salvation. No teacher of Israel has the right to claim that for himself. Unless he is the incarnation of the Word of God, the Torah in the flesh.

Like, don’t pretend you are all holy just because you haven’t had actual sex with anyone other than your spouse, but are still sneaking into the bathroom with a Playboy or something. Etc.

I agree. The new standard is Jesus himself. The man who is God, descends, empties himself, all the way to death on the Cross, and redeams us.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Just click on the links and they will start playing for you.

Steve

Thank you for contributing BibleSteve. I listened to the links you provided and found that our doctrines appear similair on the surface. When I looked deeper, I found that they were very much different. Oh well. We can agree on one thing at least.

We believe that we are living in the last days.

Every generation of Christians has believed this. As long as we don’t make the fatal mistake of setting dates for the end of the world, it is in harmony with Jesus’ instructions to his disciples to be living in eager expectation of his return. And I do!

Peace,

Ryan