The Mystery Of The Empty Tomb

[Newbie2]

**No! John and Peter were Jews but none of the gospel writers was Jewish. Paul was born Jewish, but he ceased being Jewish when he apostated from Judaism to found Christianity.

Jesus was Jewish, but when you say that he was born of God with a woman, you make of him a Greek, because there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.

Yes, I am saying that “Jews-for-Jesus” are NOT Jewish. They are former Jews who apostated from Judaism. If a Catholic converts to Protestantism, would you still consider him a Catholic? I don’t think so. That’s the same with us.**

So Paul founded Christianity?

 

[Ben_Masada]

No, not one Apostle, not even Paul “decided so”? Paul was on his way to Damascus with letters to have Nazarenes, as you call them, arrested when he met the Resurrected Jesus whom he hadn’t believed to be anything but a blasphemer whose disciples should be considered equally blasphemers. That meeting changed his whole life and from then on he couldn’t believe the same things against those people. You haven’t had your Damascus’ way yet…

**You are mistaken about what happened to Paul on the Road to Damascus. He had come to the realization that by physically persecuting the disciples, they would only grow more. Then, he preapared a strategic change of mind, And the best way was by joining the Sect of the Nazarenes to fight them from within. But to do so, he made up that encounter with Jesus, in the hope that the Apostles would fall for it. But they didn’t. He was allowed to stay in Jerusalem on a trial basis only because of Banabas who had been a friend of his from youth, and was a VIP member of the Sect. Within 15 days only, Paul caused such a havoc in Jerusalem, preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected that the local Jews were after him to arrest him and bring him to trial. But to avoid any further trouble to spill over the Sect, James and the Elders took him down to Caesarea and from there they sent him back to Tarsus where he belonged. (Acts 9:28-31) **

 

[Ben_Masada]

So Paul founded Christianity?

Laughs best who laughs last. If you don’t believe that Paul founded Christianity. Explain to me Acts 11:26. That’s where and when the disciples started being called Christians for the first time. Why? Because Paul had spent a whole year there preaching about Jesus as Christ. If this is not Paul giving birth to Christianity, I don’t know anymore what it is when a religion is born.

 

[Newbie2]

Laughs best who laughs last. If you don’t believe that Paul founded Christianity. Explain to me Acts 11:26. That’s where and when the disciples started being called Christians for the first time. Why? Because Paul had spent a whole year there preaching about Jesus as Christ. If this is not Paul giving birth to Christianity, I don’t know anymore what it is when a religion is born.

Your ignorance of NT history, even though you don’t believe a word of it, is evident.

How could Paul have persecuted Christians if they had not existed before his conversion?

:newidea: The religion was born before they were first called Christians.

You think the other Apostles were on vacation while Paul did all the evangelizing?

 

[avflf]

Abraham had a vision. Everything is possible in a vision or dream, even for a cow to fly.
In visions and dreams it is very much possible to see God and live. Everything is possible; even for spirits to eat and drink, but not in reality. In reality, God is Incorporeal. You will have a much better idea if you read my thread on my views about visions and dreams.

Visions is one thing and the Old Testament mentions a few, ie Isaac and the stepladder, but in this passage the writer does not say that it was a dream or vision and the whole story flows as an actual event and overflows into chapter 19. So, no Ben, Jews accepted that their god could take any form he wished and they were happy to detail these transformations.

 

[Lapell]

So Paul founded Christianity?

Actually, our friend is not the only Jew who thinks that! Some rabbis trying to explain Judaism to Christians would also say that. Others before them must have spread this false idea. One thing we do know: they all commented it from the outside, not from the inside, and I doubt very much, therefore, that they knew what they were talking about if they thought what they were saying was true.

 

[Lapell]

Who died for anything they thought was a lie, the Apostles? Jesus was not a lie. A lie was what Paul and his Christians claimed about Jesus. The Apostles never preached about Jesus as the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. That’s a Pauline fabrication preached by Hellenistic Gentiles former disciples of Paul.

You want to hold to a false dichotomy between Paul and the Apostles, Y. There was no such a thing as a dichotomy betw2een them as to which Gospel they were preaching. The Apostles first, and then Paul joined them, though Paul received the Gospel from the resurrected Jesus rather than from the Apostles. What Paul was preaching WAS coinciding with what the Apostles were preaching, like it or not.
Your theory, unfortunately, is false. There is one God and Father of ALL (not just the Jews!), one Lord and Saviour (Jesus), one faith, one Gospel, one baptism. You just can’t beat THAT even in your wildest dreams even if you succeeded in driving away some of us from the Christian Faith.

 

[Lapell]

Like you yourself just said, Jesus is not a lie. All of us here do agree. We do disagree on how… And what is there to add to all that you have been telling us, Y.?

 

[Lapell]

**I have three versions of the NT with me: The KJV, the Catholic NABV, and one in Hebrew presented to me by a fella from the “Jews-for-Jesus” here in Israel. All three versions bring the translation as “Jesus was raised” and not that Jesus rose or was risen. If in such a manner the Christian Scholars translated the text from the Greek, it is only obvious that the word in Greek could not have been rendered any better otherwise. **

An older version of the Jerusalem Bible or the Douay-Rheims Version would be closer to the actual flavour of the message, In French, I believe Andre Chouraqui did a good job in trying to convey how the various hebraisms could be transcribed in both the TaNaKH (and the Deuterocanonical Books) and the New Pact (Le Pacte neuf) as he called the N.T. …
The Greek Septuagint was full of hebraisms, you knew that?

 

[Newbie2]

Actually, our friend is not the only Jew who thinks that! Some rabbis trying to explain Judaism to Christians would also say that. Others before them must have spread this false idea. One thing we do know: they all commented it from the outside, not from the inside, and I doubt very much, therefore, that they knew what they were talking about if they thought what they were saying was true.

Good point; I’ve never really heard this theory about Paul starting Christianity before.

 

[w_stewart]

w_stewart;5723309:

The followers of Jesus were called Nazarenes. They never preached about a Jesus-incarnated God.

Where is your evidence?

You don’t know what God willed, and flesh-and-blood cannot decide what God wills.

I told you already that God can become anything He wants. The issue is that He has not become something just because you wish He did.

You presented nothing to support this claim.

 

[w_stewart]

**As I can see, you are not ready for storms. Your attitude reminds me of cautious Doctors on reporting a terminal disease to a patient. The news might finish with the patient before the disease itself.

And, by the way, who is this Dan Brown? Other people have mentioned his name and I have never read anything about him.**

He has the same mentality of yours. Love to invent stories in a desperate move to discredit Christianity.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Your ignorance of NT history, even though you don’t believe a word of it, is evident.

How could Paul have persecuted Christians if they had not existed before his conversion?

:newidea: The religion was born before they were first called Christians.

You think the other Apostles were on vacation while Paul did all the evangelizing?

**You are totally mistaken about me. I believe 20 percent of the NT. I don’t know where you got the idea that I don’t believe a word of it. The other 80 percent are not worthy believing because they are made out of non-Jewish interpolations and forgeries.

Now, regarding your question, “How could Paul persecute Christians if they had not existed before his conversion,” you tell me. You guys are the ones who claim that he persecuted Christians, not me. After you get yourself together, you might want to turn your ad hominem of my ignorance back to you.

So, the religion was born before they were first called Christians? I am all ears. Show me where and when.

And for the Apostles, being on vacation or not while Paul was spreading his weed, they were not. They were quite busy making lots of converts, who would become staunch deffenders of the Law. Read Acts 21:20.

Listen Newbie, when Paul first showed up in Jerusalem preaching about Jesus as Christ or Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected, the headquarters of the Apostles was functioning in Jerusalem for about 30 years, and they were coexisting pretty well with mainstream Judaism. (Acts 9:31) If it were not for James and the Elders who helped Paul escape back to Tarsus, he would have been arrested and brought to trial on charges of appostasy and heresy. Now, use your commonsense with Logic. What kind of gospel were the Apostles preaching about to get along with the local Jews? Obviously, those things preached by Paul had been fabricated within his Christology by himself. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Visions is one thing and the Old Testament mentions a few, ie Isaac and the stepladder, but in this passage the writer does not say that it was a dream or vision and the whole story flows as an actual event and overflows into chapter 19. So, no Ben, Jews accepted that their god could take any form he wished and they were happy to detail these transformations.

**Yes, you say that the Tanach mentions a few visions and then you give me the example of a dream. First of all, it was not Isaac, but Jacob. And second, it was not a vision but a dream. There is a difference between visions and dreams. You will understand that difference if you read my thread about visions and dreams. The passage does say that it was a dream. You might want to try a more decent version of the Bible.

Regarding our God being able to take any form He wish to, I never said He couldn’t. He just didn’t because you wish He did. Perhaps you are talking about a God under the control of man.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

You want to hold to a false dichotomy between Paul and the Apostles, Y. There was no such a thing as a dichotomy betw2een them as to which Gospel they were preaching. The Apostles first, and then Paul joined them, though Paul received the Gospel from the resurrected Jesus rather than from the Apostles. What Paul was preaching WAS coinciding with what the Apostles were preaching, like it or not.
Your theory, unfortunately, is false. There is one God and Father of ALL (not just the Jews!), one Lord and Saviour (Jesus), one faith, one Gospel, one baptism. You just can’t beat THAT even in your wildest dreams even if you succeeded in driving away some of us from the Christian Faith.

**The gospel of the Apostles, disciples of Jesus would make of the converts staunch deffenders of the Law. (Acts 21:20)

The gospel of Paul would teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children, and to denounce the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21)

When Paul wrote to Timothy, he said that it was according to his gospel that Jesus had resurrected from the dead. (II Tim. 2:8) Opposite to what gospel? Probably the gospel of the Apostles.

When the Apostles had been informed about the resurrection of Jesus, their reaction was that the women were talking nonsense about an idle tale. (Luke 24:11)

Now, if you still think that the gospel of the Apostles and the gospel of Paul were the same, I will blame your faith which is blinding you.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5727572:

(1) Where is your evidence?

(2) You presented nothing to support this claim.

(1) My evidence is in Acts 9:31. The Apostles would not get along with the local Jews in Jerusalem, where the Nazarenes had their headquarters, if they preached the heresy of God incarnated in the body of a Jew. Paul came doing just that and almost got himself killed. There is no stronger evidence than this.

(2) LOGIC.

 

[Ben_Masada]

He has the same mentality of yours. Love to invent stories in a desperate move to discredit Christianity.

I have no interest to discredit Christianity. My point here is to defend the image of Judaism, the Faith of Jesus, from being mudded with Hellenistic innovations that you guys insert into it as if there is room in Judaism for Greek Mythology. That’s all.

 

[KyivAndrew]

**
Listen Newbie, when Paul first showed up in Jerusalem preaching about Jesus as Christ or Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected, the headquarters of the Apostles was functioning in Jerusalem for about 30 years, and they were coexisting pretty well with mainstream Judaism. (Acts 9:31) If it were not for James and the Elders who helped Paul escape back to Tarsus, he would have been arrested and brought to trial on charges of appostasy and heresy. Now, use your commonsense with Logic. What kind of gospel were the Apostles preaching about to get along with the local Jews?**

You seem to accept Acts as a legitimate source to use in defense of your case. Before St. Paul even arrived on the scene, Acts tells us in Chapter 4, that Peter and John were arrested for “teaching that Jesus had risen from death, which proved that the dead will rise to life…The next day the Jewish leaders, the elders, and the teachers of the Law gathered in Jerusalem. They met with the High Priest Annas and with Caiaphas…and the others who belonged to the High Priest’s family.” The apostles were asked about their healing of a lame man, to which they responded the miracle was done “through the power of Jesus Christ of Nazareth…whom God raised from death.”

Acts 4:18: “So they (the Sanhedrin)…told them that under no condition were they to speak or to teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered them, 'You yourselves judge which is right in God’s sight – to speak to obey you or to obey God. For we cannot stop speaking of what we ourselves have seen and heard”. Later the Apostles were again persecuted and put into jail. The apostles were whipped. Gamaliel stated: “I tell you, do not take any action against these men. Leave them alone! If what they have planned and done is of human origin, it will disappear, but if it comes from God, you cannot possibly defeat them.” (Acts 5 17-42).

And remarkably as Gamaliel hinted 1,950 years ago, we followers of Jesus who believed as the Apostles did then that Jesus was resurrected and is our Savior, are still here. You cannot possibly defeat what comes from God.

Moreover, St. Stephen was then brought before the Sanhedrin and later stoned to death. And this was all before Paul even showed up on the scene.

Your proposal that the Apostles were in good relations with the Temple before Paul arrived is false. They were persecuted for believing Jesus Savior.

God Bless, Andrew

 

[w_stewart]

I have no interest to discredit Christianity. My point here is to defend the image of Judaism, the Faith of Jesus, from being mudded with Hellenistic innovations that you guys insert into it as if there is room in Judaism for Greek Mythology. That’s all.

Your sense of humor amazes me all this time.

Christ attacked the hypocrisy of the Jewish priests. Because their pride was offended, they killed Jesus.

This is not Hellenistic innovation. This is a fact.

 

[w_stewart]

(1) My evidence is in Acts 9:31. The Apostles would not get along with the local Jews in Jerusalem, where the Nazarenes had their headquarters, if they preached the heresy of God incarnated in the body of a Jew. Paul came doing just that and almost got himself killed. There is no stronger evidence than this.

(2) LOGIC.

Ows? You picked Acts 9:31 but you closed your eyes to not see the many verses that prove the Christian teaching?

Is that what you call logic?