The Mystery Of The Empty Tomb

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Oh man, I was baking bread today, and I was surprised that it **raised **very nicely…

Oh man, I was baking bread today, and I was surprised that it had **risen **very nicely…

In closing:

Both words can mean the same.
**No, they cannot, and I’ll tell you why. Your bread rose because of the ingredients in the constitution of the bread. So, we can say, the bread has risen. But then you need to raise the bread from its place in the oven to cold down and be served. So, the bread has been raised by yourself. Did you get the idea about the difference?

Now, let us transfer this to Jesus. The power in Jesus to rise would be of God. But the power to raise him from the tomb, I am 99 percent sure, it was in Joseph of Arimathea. Since the term used by the gospel writers is that Jesus was raised, they must be turning in their graves for the blunder they committed. **
 
The Mystery of the Empty Tomb

All the four gospel writers are unanimous on it that the tomb was empty. But how it got empty is the answer we have got to find for the question.

Starting with Matthew, at the end of that Sabbath, which in Israel is at the sunset, Mary Magdalene with another Mary, went to see the tomb. Never mind that the tombstone was sealed and the guards were there to prevent the approach of any suspect. They either did not know it or the conspiracy to provide an eyewitness had backfired.

As the women arrived there, there was nothing of the sort. However, the writer of Matthew reports an earthquake, as an angel came down to move the tombstone, and sat on it. Who was inside the tomb? Nobody. The tomb was empty. Then, the angel addressed the women and said, “I know you are looking for Jesus. As you can see, he is not here.” The tomb was empty. Even the angel could not be used as an eyewitness, because when he removed the tombstone, the tomb was empty already. (Mat. 28:1-6)

Let us ask Mark about this. He says almost the same, except for the earthquake. When that Sabbath was over, the women brought perfumed oils to anoint Jesus’ body. They were worried only on how to remove the tombstone, which was huge. Never mind that it was sealed and kept by guards, because when they got there, they saw nothing of the sort. So much so that the stone was already removed and the tomb was empty, except for a youngman who was there, telling them that Jesus was not there. That he had been raised. He was right, because by the will of God one rises, but by the will of man one is raised. It means that someone had indeed removed Jesus from there. (Mark 16:1-6)

How about Luke? What did he have to say? That the tombstone was removed, the tomb was empty, but there were two guys asking why the women were looking for the living among the dead. And that Jesus had been raised. Mind you, not risen but raised. The women went to tell the disciples, and they refused to believe their “nonsense and idle tale,” as those were their very words. Probably, Jesus had never mentioned such a thing about himself. (Luke 24:1-11)

Last but not least, we have John, who brought to the tomb only Mary Magdalene. The tombstone was removed as usual, and the tomb was indeed empty. All that Mary could think of, was that Jesus had been taken from the tomb. They all probably had never heard about resurrection. Mary remained at the tomb crying her eyes out. Then, to a guy there, whom she thought was the Gardener, she asked to let her know where he had put Jesus’ body, so that she could take it away with her, if he had been the one who had removed Jesus from there. It means that Mary had come to the tomb with the intention to remove Jesus from there. Bad luck for her, because obviously Joseph of Arimathea had done the removal during the first hours of Friday night. (John 20:1-15)

As we all can see, the mystery is not in the empty tomb but in the how the tomb got empty. Quite easy to solve if we try to understand the difference between rising and being raised, and the inconsistency among the four gospel writers on reporting the “idle tale” of the resurrection. (Luke 24:11)

Ben
Gospel of Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen.

Gospel of Matthew 28
1 Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.:

Gospel of Luke 24
But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came unto the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Gospel of John 20
1 Now on the first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, while it was yet dark, unto the tomb, and seeth the stone taken away from the tomb.

The first character of honest witnesses are slight discrepancies. Secondly these gospels were written by different people each inheriting a slightly different oral tradition. But there is still considerable agreement.

In each case they came to the tomb early in the morning. The Jewish day may have ended at sunset, but there was hardly any point in the women coming to the tomb at night. So they went first thing on Sunday morning.

All the gospels agree on that.

Mary Magdalene is mentioned in three Gospels out of four despite the oral tradition for some years; Mary the mother of James in two of them; angels are mentioned in two of them, with one stating one young man and the other two young men. The tomb is empty in all four. Roman Guards were on strict penalty of death for failing to keep watch, hence “they became like dead men” when the angel/s appeared.

Ask any cop if witnesses agree perfectly on an incident. That doesn’t make them dishonest, but they are relying on their own perception. For an oral tradition to make the rounds for some years, but still have a considerable amount of agreement means that the various stories were consistent.

I assume you agree that JFK was assassinated in Dallas in 1963.

But … "Back to Oswald’s clothing – There were, indeed, varying versions from the witnesses as to what the ONE ASSASSIN IN THE SNIPER’S NEST was
wearing. "

The witnesses to Kennedy’s assassination couldn’t even agree on the clothing Oswald was wearing. So I suppose you’ll tell me now Kennedy wasn’t assassinated because there were slight discrepancies between the witnesses?
 
**I agree with you that Mythology was never the sole property of Greece. Serveral other ancient nations had a lot of it. I use Greek Mythology just to discard the claim that it is possible in Judaism.

Yes, I affirm with all the power of my understanding as a Jew, that the case of Jesus was a fake fabrication by the former Hellenistic Jew that Paul was.

I insist that if Jesus had been raised by the power of God it would have implied a physical activity. God is Incorporeal. Therefore, by His spiritual power Jesus would have been risen and not raised. So, Jesus was raised by the power of man. The power of God could not be inherent in Jesus if he was dead. **
 
What gets me curious is if someone (Joseph of A.) took the body, how did it happen that Jesus appeared to the apostles and many disciples right afterwards? Even if, as some say, he wasn’t dead, it would have taken a long hospital stay and much physical therapy before he was walking, talking, and appearing well. He was seen here and there for 40 days by a large number of people. Then there’s the part of the disciples seeing him going up into the air until the clouds took him from their sight.

So if what you are saying is that the whole thing was a big hoax, why would all these people willingly accept being put to death for spreading the news about Jesus???
**Please no offence. There is contest between Ben and the Catholics. The words under review are “risen” and “raised”. The word used in bible is raised and not risen.

It is big problem for a God to die in the first place. then it would be another problem for a dead god to get up himself.

The case is quite clear. Joseph of Armithea was a secret follower (lover ) of Jesus. He was in collusion with Pilate, the governor. Pilates wife was warned by an angel that Jesus should not be harmed. Pilate knew that too.

In short, when Jesus was brought down from the cross, he was alive. He had only fainted. Joseph of Armithea took charge of the body of Jesus. Every one said that Jesus was dead. That was good and necessary. If any one said that Jesus was alive, it would have been harmful to Jesus.

Joseph had come with a Medicine man, Nicodemus. Nicodemus had brought lot of herbs to cure the wounds of Jesus. Jesus was taken away and put in a nearby underground tomb in front of everybody. A big stone was placed on the tomb.

The doctor knew that Jesus was alive, his heart was beating.

After keeping Jesus there for while with medicines applied, it was necessary to take him away from that tomb for extra safety. When every one had gone away. jesus was taken away from the tomb by Joseph men and put in a more comfortable home.

That was done before any platoon was employed as guard. But the tomb was already empty. That was a very wise step from the friends of Jesus to protect him and to attend to his problems in a better way.

I am sure that Jesus was removed from the tomb and put in a better place. So that tomb was quite empty. There was no one in the tomb. That explains why the tomb was empty.

As far as the son of God is concerned, it is mentioned in the gospel of John. Some say that John was a gentile. I fully agree with Ben about Jesus being a Jew could never claim to be a son of God. It was all cooked up 50 years later in Greece later on by some one. The Greeks believed in the gods and goddesses and sons of Gods.

Jesus was a perfect Jew and Ben has the right to claim him for himself.**
 
Palten This is the biggest bunch of hog wash you have put on this borard yet but we all must remember you just post your opinions and this is just another of your opinion,not your best but still just a opinion.
 
I think I was watching John Wayne and I think Eastwood was hiding from a mask man,this may be better then empty tomb.can I go on ?
 
**If you think I am twisting the words, I’ll be happy to see you straight them up by using the Scriptures. The term "had been raised is not past perfect progressive
but an adjectival-verbal form in the past perfect, but not progressive. Progressive would be “was being raised” and not had been raised.

Jesus is not God because he is dead; and he was not God because he was a Jew and not a Greek. A man to be god or son of god, only in Greek Mythology. And Jesus did not rise; he was raised. You are trying to rewrite the text, and it doesn’t go that way.**
Incorrect:
He is not here, but He has been raised
are two independent clauses. Has been raised is past perfect progressive form of the verb rise.
As interesting as this is it really proves nothing. You have chosen to look at one sentence and ignore the others.

verse 7 That the Son of Man must be handed over to the sinners and be crucified, and rise on the third day.

Jesus is God. Amen! Your point is baseless. Jesus rose by His own power because He is God. Heaven is obtainable for you now. You do not have to wait for the Messiah.
 
**If they had not written down 50+ years after the alleged fact, you would not know today that it had been reported immediately. Can you see any difference from what I said? **
That is unprovable conjecture. I believe that if nothing had been written down we still would have all because Jesus said to teach not to write.
 
**No, they cannot, and I’ll tell you why. Your bread rose because of the ingredients in the constitution of the bread. So, we can say, the bread has risen. But then you need to raise the bread from its place in the oven to cold down and be served. So, the bread has been raised by yourself. Did you get the idea about the difference?

Now, let us transfer this to Jesus. The power in Jesus to rise would be of God. But the power to raise him from the tomb, I am 99 percent sure, it was in Joseph of Arimathea. Since the term used by the gospel writers is that Jesus was raised, they must be turning in their graves for the blunder they committed. **
You have changed his meaning. Both his sentences had to do with the bread rising which is what it is called when the yeast expands the flour.

I am 100% sure that Jesus is God. The gospel writers made no blunder it is your interpretation that is incorrect. They did not write in English and if you look at other translations it says He is risen. Is risen is the Greek word used.
 
The Mystery of the Empty Tomb

All the four gospel writers are unanimous on it that the tomb was empty. But how it got empty is the answer we have got to find for the question.

Starting with Matthew, at the end of that Sabbath, which in Israel is at the sunset, Mary Magdalene with another Mary, went to see the tomb. Never mind that the tombstone was sealed and the guards were there to prevent the approach of any suspect. They either did not know it or the conspiracy to provide an eyewitness had backfired.

As the women arrived there, there was nothing of the sort. However, the writer of Matthew reports an earthquake, as an angel came down to move the tombstone, and sat on it. Who was inside the tomb? Nobody. The tomb was empty. Then, the angel addressed the women and said, “I know you are looking for Jesus. As you can see, he is not here.” The tomb was empty. Even the angel could not be used as an eyewitness, because when he removed the tombstone, the tomb was empty already. (Mat. 28:1-6)

Let us ask Mark about this. He says almost the same, except for the earthquake. When that Sabbath was over, the women brought perfumed oils to anoint Jesus’ body. They were worried only on how to remove the tombstone, which was huge. Never mind that it was sealed and kept by guards, because when they got there, they saw nothing of the sort. So much so that the stone was already removed and the tomb was empty, except for a youngman who was there, telling them that Jesus was not there. That he had been raised. He was right, because by the will of God one rises, but by the will of man one is raised. It means that someone had indeed removed Jesus from there. (Mark 16:1-6)

How about Luke? What did he have to say? That the tombstone was removed, the tomb was empty, but there were two guys asking why the women were looking for the living among the dead. And that Jesus had been raised. Mind you, not risen but raised. The women went to tell the disciples, and they refused to believe their “nonsense and idle tale,” as those were their very words. Probably, Jesus had never mentioned such a thing about himself. (Luke 24:1-11)

Last but not least, we have John, who brought to the tomb only Mary Magdalene. The tombstone was removed as usual, and the tomb was indeed empty. All that Mary could think of, was that Jesus had been taken from the tomb. They all probably had never heard about resurrection. Mary remained at the tomb crying her eyes out. Then, to a guy there, whom she thought was the Gardener, she asked to let her know where he had put Jesus’ body, so that she could take it away with her, if he had been the one who had removed Jesus from there. It means that Mary had come to the tomb with the intention to remove Jesus from there. Bad luck for her, because obviously Joseph of Arimathea had done the removal during the first hours of Friday night. (John 20:1-15)

As we all can see, the mystery is not in the empty tomb but in the how the tomb got empty. Quite easy to solve if we try to understand the difference between rising and being raised, and the inconsistency among the four gospel writers on reporting the “idle tale” of the resurrection. (Luke 24:11)

Ben
Ben, think about any given event, and have journalists from various newspapers. Isn’t it true that not one journalist would report the event exactly like another?
What is true of journalists also is true of the sacred writers of the Gospels…
 
I am glad to be using a Catholic version, Saint Joseph’s edition of the New American Bible. Prefaced by a Committee of Bishops and signed by the Pope. The term used is raised and not risen.
In some cases, raised is poetic form to mean risen… Don’t separate what God united, please!
 
The text says that Jesus had been raised and not risen. There is an enormous difference between being raised and risen. By the will of God, one is risen. By the will of man one is raised. Jesus was raised, and there is no use to try to rewrite the text, because it won’t help.
Ben Masada, as a native speaker of English, I see no appreciable difference between raised and risen. Consider:

“Jesus had been raised by his own power.”
“Jesus has risen by his own power.”

I added to the first one because on its own, the passive construction is incomplete; lacks an agent. The only difference between the two is that the first one is past tense, and the second is present tense. Either is acceptable because we don’t need to take the past tense of the first sentence to mean that Jesus is not raised now.
 
**And who are you to decide what God should do?

I repeat -

Mi atah lachlit et ma she Elohim haiav laassot?**
 
Incorrect: are two independent clauses. Has been raised is past perfect progressive form of the verb rise.

As interesting as this is it really proves nothing. You have chosen to look at one sentence and ignore the others.

verse 7 That the Son of Man must be handed over to the sinners and be crucified, and rise on the third day.

Jesus is God. Amen! Your point is baseless. Jesus rose by His own power because He is God. Heaven is obtainable for you now. You do not have to wait for the Messiah.
**The meaning of son of man is not son of God. “And rise on the third day!” For heaven’s sake, at the end of that Sabbath, the tomb was empty. And Matthew 12:40 even says “After three days and three nights.” That’s embarrassing for lack of a better word.

Of course I know that my point is baseless! There is no point in a mind to emotions discussion, as you can’t have a mind to mind discussion with me. There is no point dealing with irrationality.

You don’t have to tell me not to wait for the Messiah. I know I don’t have to. He is back in the Land of Israel already. According to Isaiah, the Messiah is Israel, the Jewish People and not an individual who has been dead for 2000 years. **
 
You have changed his meaning. Both his sentences had to do with the bread rising which is what it is called when the yeast expands the flour.

I am 100% sure that Jesus is God. The gospel writers made no blunder it is your interpretation that is incorrect. They did not write in English and if you look at other translations it says He is risen. Is risen is the Greek word used.
The simple believes everything as long as the strings are pulled in the direction of the Church.That’s sad to live as a tick.
 
Ben, think about any given event, and have journalists from various newspapers. Isn’t it true that not one journalist would report the event exactly like another?
What is true of journalists also is true of the sacred writers of the Gospels…
No, it’s not. The journalists do not claim Divine inspiration. So, I am ready to accept confusion among them. Since there is no confusion in God, the gospel writers are to blame for the contradictions, and Christians are to blame for claiming Divine inspirtion for them.
 
Ben Masada, as a native speaker of English, I see no appreciable difference between raised and risen. Consider:

“Jesus had been raised by his own power.”
“Jesus has risen by his own power.”

I added to the first one because on its own, the passive construction is incomplete; lacks an agent. The only difference between the two is that the first one is past tense, and the second is present tense. Either is acceptable because we don’t need to take the past tense of the first sentence to mean that Jesus is not raised now.
**Listen Spirithound, stick to religion because you don’t have what it takes to teach English Grammar. The first sentence is in the past perfect passive voice, and the second is in the present perfect, active voice. To make the second sentence passive, you would have to add verb to be before risen, as in “been.” Don’t forget that “by his own power” requires the sentence to be passive, but not without the verb “to be.” Got it? Don’t let it go. Just use it; you don’t have to teach it. **
 
I think I was watching John Wayne and I think Eastwood was hiding from a mask man,this may be better then empty tomb.can I go on ?
No no, it was really Nicodemus. The problem is that you were not watching on the right place. Try John 19:39. And he was about a hundrend pound heavy with a mixture of myrrh and aloes. A hundred pounds is a lot of stuff.
 
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