The Mystery Of The Empty Tomb

[adrift]

The meaning of son of man is not son of God. “And rise on the third day!” For heaven’s sake, at the end of that Sabbath, the tomb was empty. And Matthew 12:40 even says “After three days and three nights.” That’s embarrassing for lack of a better word.

Of course it was empty, Jesus had risen. He was no longer dead but alive and appearing to the apostles.

Of course I know that my point is baseless! There is no point in a mind to emotions discussion, as you can’t have a mind to mind discussion with me. There is no point dealing with irrationality.

Ad hominem attack when you can’t admit you are wrong.

 

[adrift]

The simple believes everything as long as the strings are pulled in the direction of the Church.That’s sad to live as a tick.

Again an Ad hominem attack.:tsktsk:

 

[Spirithound]

**Listen Spirithound, stick to religion because you don’t have what it takes to teach English Grammar. The first sentence is in the past perfect passive voice, and the second is in the present perfect, active voice. To make the second sentence passive, you would have to add verb to be before risen, as in “been.” Don’t forget that “by his own power” requires the sentence to be passive, but not without the verb “to be.” Got it? Don’t let it go. Just use it; you don’t have to teach it. **

Hi, I have a Master’s degree in linguistics. So thanks for that ad hominem. I’m not saying the tenses are the same, I’m saying semantically, there is no difference between these three sentences.

1a. Jesus was raised by his own power.
1b. Jesus was raised by the power of God
2. Jesus has risen by his own power.

1a and 1b are equivalent because Jesus’s power is God’s own power (and if you don’t believe that, that’s a topic for another thread). 1a and 2 are equivalent because the agent is the same, and the effect is the same.
Your error is ascribing agency in “raising” to men, when the text doesn’t say that. That’s your own interpretation, and again, material for another thread. Why do you preclude God from being an agent in raising someone?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Hi, I have a Master’s degree in linguistics. So thanks for that ad hominem. I’m not saying the tenses are the same, I’m saying semantically, there is no difference between these three sentences.

1a. Jesus was raised by his own power.
1b. Jesus was raised by the power of God
2. Jesus has risen by his own power.

1a and 1b are equivalent because Jesus’s power is God’s own power (and if you don’t believe that, that’s a topic for another thread). 1a and 2 are equivalent because the agent is the same, and the effect is the same.
Your error is ascribing agency in “raising” to men, when the text doesn’t say that. That’s your own interpretation, and again, material for another thread. Why do you preclude God from being an agent in raising someone?

**If Jesus was dead, which I believe he was not, he could not be raised by his own power. Premise 1a is eliminated. If Jesus was raised by the power of God, he would have been risen and not raised, because God is incorporeal. Therefore, the power of God would make the prospect to be possessed by and rise, instead of being raised. Premise 1b is equally taken care of. Premise 2 got neutralized with the elimination of premise 1a. So, you are back to square one. **

 

[Bill_Pick]

BEN After 2000 years Christ has risen He is not here He is now in heaven by His Father. You can not change history,He has risen

 

[Ben_Masada]

BEN After 2000 years Christ has risen He is not here He is now in heaven by His Father. You can not change history,He has risen

That’s not what the text says. It rather says that he was raised and not risen. You cannot make something true by repeating it over and over again. Then, there were no eyewitnesses to Jesus resurection. Therefore, no one can be sure that it ever happened.

 

[Spirithound]

**If Jesus was dead, which I believe he was not, he could not be raised by his own power. Premise 1a is eliminated. If Jesus was raised by the power of God, he would have been risen and not raised, because God is incorporeal. Therefore, the power of God would make the prospect to be possessed by and rise, instead of being raised. Premise 1b is equally taken care of. Premise 2 got neutralized with the elimination of premise 1a. So, you are back to square one. **

Ben Masada, are you a native speaker of English? As a native speaker of English, and therefore someone who is qualified to make this kind of judgement, I see no reason, either theological or semantic, why God cannot raise someone.

Further, if Jesus is God, then he certainly could be raised by his own power, even after physical death.

 

[Bill_Pick]

That’s not what the text says. It rather says that he was raised and not risen. You cannot make something true by repeating it over and over again. Then, there were no eyewitnesses to Jesus resurection. Therefore, no one can be sure that it ever happened.

I will check but I believe over 500 saw Him after He had risen, what was He to do set there and have a little wine with them or was He to have a party. What do you say He was to do. Play cards and just wait.
What you do after coming back from death.

 

[Lapell]

**The meaning of son of man is not son of God. “And rise on the third day!” For heaven’s sake, at the end of that Sabbath, the tomb was empty. And Matthew 12:40 even says “After three days and three nights.” That’s embarrassing for lack of a better word.

Lapell: -What was so embarrassing here, Ben? He was quoting from the Book of Jonah. If Jesus resurrected slightly before the three days and three nights were done, so what? “God didn’t suffer His Holy One to see corruption”!**

You don’t have to tell me not to wait for the Messiah. I know I don’t have to. He is back in the Land of Israel already. According to Isaiah, the Messiah is Israel, the Jewish People and not an individual who has been dead for 2000 years.

Then I am sure that you will welcome Jesus when He comes back…
(As for the slavonic expression used by “Jharek” after “I repeat”, it means: Christ resurrected! Christ resurrected! What did the Hebrew expression after your: “I repeat” mean, Ben?)

 

[estesbob]

That’s not what the text says. It rather says that he was raised and not risen. You cannot make something true by repeating it over and over again. Then, there were no eyewitnesses to Jesus resurection. Therefore, no one can be sure that it ever happened.

I am used to people making profound theological assumptions basedon their personla interperpreation of a few verses of Scripture verses but this is the first time I have ever seen someone claim that Christianity is false based on their personal intertpreation of one word in scripture.

 

[adstrinity]

In short, when Jesus was brought down from the cross, he was alive. He had only fainted.

How many of Allah’s prophets have been up all night, worried so much they at least appeared to have bled, if not actually bled, tried to keep the morale of their friends up, were arrested, healed a man, went to be tried, went elsewhere to be tried, went to the first place to be tried, scourged mercilessly (losing a copious amount of blood), being sent elsewhere (more walking, no food since at least 12 hours prior), understood that he (or she, as there may be female prophets in Islam, I don’t know) had the death sentence, was made to walk a distance, carrying his impliment of death (I’ll even include made to dig own ditch or equivilent), falling three times because of lack of sleep, food, and blood, and then still being made to walk to death, while somebody else carries the way he will die, gets to the place where he will die, method of death involves losing even more blood, and finally asphixiation is eminent. After all this, on an empty stomach, half of the blood he started off with, and not great defenses as slept has made him week, how many other of Allah’s prophets would have just fainted?

This was like piercing a bulls neck – it was only to make it easier for the eventual death. But, maybe there was somebody in Islam who Allah miraculously made live after such an occurance

And who are you to decide what God should do?

I repeat -

Mi atah lachlit et ma she Elohim haiav laassot?

You don’t seem like a very divoutly religious Jew. Are you more a secular Jew?

The meaning of son of man is not son of God. “And rise on the third day!” For heaven’s sake, at the end of that Sabbath, the tomb was empty. And Matthew 12:40 even says “After three days and three nights.” That’s embarrassing for lack of a better word.

From the DR Bible: 40 “Three days”… Not complete days and nights; but part of three days, and three nights taken according to the way that the Hebrews counted their days and nights, viz., from evening to evening.

 

[SteveLohr]

**And who are you to decide what God should do?

I repeat -

Mi atah lachlit et ma she Elohim haiav laassot?**

Ben-He didn’t describe what God should do. He described what God did.

Regards,
SteveLohr

 

[adrift]

**If Jesus was dead, which I believe he was not, he could not be raised by his own power. Premise 1a is eliminated. If Jesus was raised by the power of God, he would have been risen and not raised, because God is incorporeal. Therefore, the power of God would make the prospect to be possessed by and rise, instead of being raised. Premise 1b is equally taken care of. Premise 2 got neutralized with the elimination of premise 1a. So, you are back to square one. **

Jesus was dead there were witnesses. Jesus rose there were witnesses that so Him alive. Jesus will come again. It isn’t if Jesus was raised it is Jesus was raised it happened by His own power the power of God. Your premise is based on false reasoning. Jesus is God that destroys your premise. Just because you have not faith does not mean you may impose disbelief on us. Your premise is false because it is based on your belief not ours.

 

[planten]

Jesus was dead there were witnesses. Jesus rose there were witnesses that so Him alive. Jesus will come again. It isn’t if Jesus was raised it is Jesus was raised it happened by His own power the power of God. Your premise is based on false reasoning. Jesus is God that destroys your premise. Just because you have not faith does not mean you may impose disbelief on us. Your premise is false because it is based on your belief not ours.

**Adrift, those near at the cross could not say that jesus was alive. You know that very well. Nobody could say that he was alive. Since he had only fainted on the cross and was not dead, he appeared to be dead.

He was put in an under ground tomb and looked after for a short time. When all had gone away, then the friends of Jesus, taking extra care of Jesus, came and removed Jesus from that tomb. They took him away to a more safe place where his enemies could not find him.
That explains the mystery of the empty tomb. Since he had not died, there was no need resurrect. He simply got up and recovered. Every one of his comrades were happy. i.e. Joseph of armithea and the physician Nicodemus.**

 

[estesbob]

Adrift, those near at the cross could not say that jesus was alive. You know that very well. Nobody could say that he was alive. Since he had only fainted on the cross and was not dead, he appeared to be dead.

He was put in an under ground tomb and looked after for a short time. When all had gone away, then the friends of Jesus, taking extra care of Jesus, came and removed Jesus from that tomb. They took him away to a more safe place where his enemies could not find him.
That explains the mystery of the empty tomb. Since he had not died, there was no need resurrect. He simply got up and recovered. Every one of his comrades were happy. i.e. Joseph of armithea and the physician Nicodemus.

And you base this on what?

 

[adstrinity]

And you base this on what?

I second this inquiry. After all He had been through, how could Jesus not have been dead? …For that matter, if He was passed out/fainted, wouldn’t the lance in his side have caused a reaction from Him other than water and blood coming out? One would think it would have caused Him to flinch.

Sleep deprivation
Mild starvation
Exhaustion
Lashes
Crucifixion
Pierced in side

The first three weakened Jesus and the second three deprived Him of blood. How is it He just passed out? I take it the Qaran doesn’t view the events as the same, then?

 

[Bill_Pick]

**Adrift, those near at the cross could not say that jesus was alive. You know that very well. Nobody could say that he was alive. Since he had only fainted on the cross and was not dead, he appeared to be dead.

He was put in an under ground tomb and looked after for a short time. When all had gone away, then the friends of Jesus, taking extra care of Jesus, came and removed Jesus from that tomb. They took him away to a more safe place where his enemies could not find him.
That explains the mystery of the empty tomb. Since he had not died, there was no need resurrect. He simply got up and recovered. Every one of his comrades were happy. i.e. Joseph of armithea and the physician Nicodemus.**

Planten, All on this board thank God that all you post are just you opinion because you make no sence at all, but it does make for a good laugh

 

[emarc]

**If Jesus was dead, which I believe he was not, he could not be raised by his own power. Premise 1a is eliminated. If Jesus was raised by the power of God, he would have been risen and not raised, because God is incorporeal. Therefore, the power of God would make the prospect to be possessed by and rise, instead of being raised. Premise 1b is equally taken care of. Premise 2 got neutralized with the elimination of premise 1a. So, you are back to square one. **

this is your belief, so stick to it and we’ll pray for you. as St. Paul had said; "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside”. Amen.
God bless.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Ben<Planten- What you guys do not believe in life you will believe in death.

 

[adrift]

That’s not what the text says. It rather says that he was raised and not risen. You cannot make something true by repeating it over and over again. Then, there were no eyewitnesses to Jesus resurection. Therefore, no one can be sure that it ever happened.

It is non-sense to say that the Resurrection had to be witnessed to know it happened. After He was seen dead, He was seen alive conclusion He was Risen. Christ has died, Christ has risen Christ will come again. You cannot make something false by repeating a lie over and over again. We are sure it happened. You cannot make something false by nit picking a word to mean what you want it to mean. Isn’t that what happened in Alice through the Looking Glass? The text were not written in English, if they had been you might have had an argument. You should not take one word and ignore those words that prove you wrong. You have no idea what the text says because you are looking through the lens of finding fault.