The Mystery Of The Empty Tomb

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada, are you a native speaker of English? As a native speaker of English, and therefore someone who is qualified to make this kind of judgement, I see no reason, either theological or semantic, why God cannot raise someone.

Further, if Jesus is God, then he certainly could be raised by his own power, even after physical death.

**That’s the whole problem my friend, Jesus was not God. You have forgotten that we are talking about Judaism, and this kind of Mythology of a man being God is possible only in pagan Mythology. I don’t even need to ask you to prove anything about this because it’s impossible. Jesus was a religious Jew and not a Greek Apollos.

Regarding “why God cannot raise someone,” I juxtapose your question with another: Why should God do what you wish He did? By the power of God one rises; by the power of man
one is raised. This is so elementary that I wonder how a person with a Masters in Linguistics does not understand it. To raise someone, it requires a physical action, and God is incorporeal.

Let us assume that what Jesus did to Lazarus was true. I mean, Lazarus invitation to come out of the tomb. Did Jesus raise Lazarus from that tomb? No, he did not. He prayed to God to make him rise. Is the sun raised every morning? No, it is not. The sun rises every morning by the power of Divine predetermination through natural laws.

Now, theological or semantically, I hope I got through your expertise in Linguistics. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Again an Ad hominem attack.:tsktsk:

**Listen Adrift, why don’t you grow up and stop crying wolf? I have been attacked Ad hominemly almost daily in this forum. I have been even addressed as an idiot. Do you know why it doesn’t affect me? Because, besides my awareness of where I am coming from, I am 101 percent sure that those who attack me are being moved by jealousy, because they know I am not an idiot.

The other day I was reported for proselytizing because of my reply to an attempt to proselytize me by saying, "Why don’t you rather join us - Jesus and myself - in the same faith which is Judaism? Can something be more childish than to report someone for this?

I think it’s going to take much more than this to remove me from here. BTW, I wonder why would you want to remove the salt from your flat food. Didn’t Jesus say in his Sermon of the Mount that the Jews are the salt of the earth? (Mat. 5:13) You should be grateful to God that I am around to flavor your food with healthy controversy. What kind of learning can come out of the chit-chatting of common beliefs? Ponder! **

 

[planten]

Planten, All on this board thank God that all you post are just you opinion because you make no sence at all, but it does make for a good laugh

** Bill Pick, with all due respect, I still feel that at the scene of the cross, when Jesus was brought down from cross, in whatever state he was, I am sure that his lovers could never say that he was alive. That would have been very dangerous for Jesus.

You are believing that he was definitely dead. So the matter of his life and death cannot be decided because you have already given your verdict. Just for the sake of discussion, please tell, if by any remote possibility, Jesus was alive. Could any one say that was alive?? Would that not make him go up on the cross or would it not hasten his death by breaking his legs??

I simply said that it was dangerous to say that he was alive. Nobody could say that he was alive. i was best to assume that he had died.

The other point that I have raised for your consideration is: Jesus was removed from the first tomb. He was not formally buried at all. Why? Ladies were planning to anoint him with medicines. That was never the custom of the Jews to annoint the dead bodies.

When a man is dead, he is buried and never approached again. That is the right practice. That was not done in the case of Jesus. The friends of Jesus were very careful. They moved his body (or we say, they removed living Jesus) to a more comfortable and secure secret place to avoid and further attack on him. Also to avoid raising another havoc about his act of Crucifixion. It would have been hell if Jesus was seen alive in public.

I have nothing against Jesus or his mother or the curch or the christians.

**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Of course it was empty, Jesus had risen. He was no longer dead but alive and appearing to the apostles.

No, Jesus had not risen. Jesus was raised and that’s according to the text. It does not help to try to rewrite your own NT. Accept it as it is and be big enough to acknowledge that the gospel writers missed that blunder. Since the wish of you all is to proselytize a Jew, you will never fulfill it by trying to adulterate what is written.

 

[adrift]

Listen Adrift, why don’t you grow up and stop crying wolf? I have been attacked Ad hominemly almost daily in this forum.
It isn’t right if you attack or someone attacks you. The first thing you did was attack me. Just because you are attacked does not give you the right to attack nor is it a defense.

I have been even addressed as an idiot. Do you know why it doesn’t affect me? Because, besides my awareness of where I am coming from, I am 101 percent sure that those who attack me are being moved by jealousy, because they know I am not an idiot.

I am not trying to remove you nor do I want you removed. I believe that you are disrespectful. I don’t believe that you are the expert and final word on what a Jewish person is. I have tried to treat you with respect and discuss that which I disagree with you on. I believe Jesus is God you do not that does not mean that I am attacking you. Nor do I take it as an attack when you say that Jesus is not God. The salt of the earth are the disciples of Jesus who are persecuted for His sake. For the most part, I have enjoyed exchanges with you but there have been times when you are not a nice person. I hope that I have not attacked you. I don’t mean to. Sometimes we write things quickly with the unintended result of it seeming to be an attack.
It is a pity that you defended them by not only attacking again but pointing out that you are attacked as well. I cringe when I see people making unnecessary swipes. It is hard however not to reply in kind. I do try. I erase a lot of comments not that I think they are attacks but they might be taken as such. I am glad you cannot be removed easily but you are not going to remove me easily either. Like you I will defend my faith. You don’t seem to have respect for that. After reading through this, I wondered do you think I reported you? I didn’t. I think you are highly intelligent, belligerent, condescending, and arrogant none of which is worthy of reporting.

 

[adrift]

No, Jesus had not risen. Jesus was raised and that’s according to the text. It does not help to try to rewrite your own NT. Accept it as it is and be big enough to acknowledge that the gospel writers missed that blunder. Since the wish of you all is to proselytize a Jew, you will never fulfill it by trying to adulterate what is written.

The texts were not written in English. You should not take one word and ignore those words that prove you wrong. You have no idea what the text says because you are looking through the lens of finding fault.

There was no blunder.

Jesus is God and He rose by His own power. You may not like this answer but that is the truth.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I will check but I believe over 500 saw Him after He had risen, what was He to do set there and have a little wine with them or was He to have a party. What do you say He was to do. Play cards and just wait.
What you do after coming back from death.

**Bill Pick, Jesus was not risen. He was raised. Why do you guys have to change what is written? And I didn’t ask for people here to tell me who saw him alive after his sufferings. I asked for an eyewitness of his resurrection. To see him after his sufferings is no proof that he even died; let alone that he resurrected. Read Acts 1:1-3. Luke says that Jesus spent 40 days showing himself alive AFTER HIS SUFFERING with many convincing proofs that he was alive. There is no mention here of death or resurrection.

Now, to your questions above. Mind you, they are good. “To sit there and have a little wine with them?” With them who? Who was there to eyewitness his coming alive? That’s what I would like to know. “Or was he to have a party?” Not there but he did with his disciples when he started appearing to them later. Eating and drinking just as he used to do it before. And mind you, one does not have to be a Medical Doctor to know that the last function of digestion is to go to the bathroom to defecate. I we are to continue doing this after resurrection, thank you but no, thanks. I would rather stay in the dust.

“Play cards and just wait?” Whom was he to play cards with? That’s what I am after; someone there to see him wake up. Regarding the last question, it’s hard to answer, because I have never died to come back from death. And neither did Jesus, I assure you. But the Church needed to hold on something to grow. And the resurrection was a must, no matter how it would have to be fabricated. But since there is no perfect crime, one of the blunders was to forget to fix the raised for risen, another was to bring the women to anoint Jesus’ body at the tomb when the tombstone was sealed and the guards were there to prevent the approach of any suspect. Another was to bring Mary Magdalene within 24 hours to the tomb and find it emply. They had forgotten the three days and three nights. That’s a big blunder. And there are many others, if we have time for some detective work.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

I am used to people making profound theological assumptions basedon their personla interperpreation of a few verses of Scripture verses but this is the first time I have ever seen someone claim that Christianity is false based on their personal intertpreation of one word in scripture.

**If you are unable to come to the rescue on the misinterpretation of one
word in scripture, how could you help anyone on full texts of contradictions? I’ll never be able to trust your help with a text if you can’t help with a word.

I hope I am dealing with people who understand a little of Linguistics. Grammaticallly, a word can change the meaning of even a whole sentence. This is one of the cases. There is an enormous semantic difference between being raised and risen. I hope I don’t need to go through the same thing over and over again. I believe the thread is quite clear.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

From the DR Bible: 40 “Three days”… Not complete days and nights; but part of three days, and three nights taken according to the way that the Hebrews counted their days and nights, viz., from evening to evening.

**Well, if you want to go that way, I’ll meet you at the corner. Let us find the three days and three nights. A minute or two of Friday before Joseph of Arimathea laid Jesus in the tomb. I don’t know how that can be counted as a day, but I’ll give it to you as one.

The night of Friday to Saturday is one night. At the end of that Sabbath, which you well reminded me above, that we count the day from evening to evening, Mary Magdalene went to see the tomb and it was empty. Although that Sabbath was the only day Jesus spent in the tomb, I’ll give it to you as the second day.

Since the end of the Sabbath is at sunset, I also give to you a second night for those minutes that took Mary Magdalene to arrive at the tomb. Very well, two days and two nights. Matthew 12:40 clearly accounts for three days and three nights. Where are you going to find the third day and the third night? Nu! Are you still there?**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben-He didn’t describe what God should do. He described what God did.

Regards,
SteveLohr

I mean, who are you to decide that God did what you wish today that He should have done? And I didn’t mean him in particular, but the writers of the gospels.

 

[Ben_Masada]

this is your belief, so stick to it and we’ll pray for you. as St. Paul had said; "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside”. Amen.
God bless.

**Well, my dear friend, you can verify yourself that this Pauline prophecy
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside,” failed to be fulfilled during these 2000 years because we, being only 14 million in a world of more than five billion, still monopolize 50 percent of all Nobel Prizes. When will our learning be set aside? Consider the solid evidences of Reality and set yourself free once and for all from these Pauline rhetorics. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben<Planten- What you guys do not believe in life you will believe in death.

**And you need to study your Bible a little better because “there will be
no work, nor reason, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the nether world where you are going.”
That’s in Ecclesiastes 9:10. To use only the Church in a Forum, it won’t help you to learn or to teach. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

It is non-sense to say that the Resurrection had to be witnessed to know it happened. After He was seen dead, He was seen alive conclusion He was Risen. Christ has died, Christ has risen Christ will come again. You cannot make something false by repeating a lie over and over again. We are sure it happened. You cannot make something false by nit picking a word to mean what you want it to mean. Isn’t that what happened in Alice through the Looking Glass? The text were not written in English, if they had been you might have had an argument. You should not take one word and ignore those words that prove you wrong. You have no idea what the text says because you are looking through the lens of finding fault.

**You are sure it happened. How sure are you, by faith? So, tell us that Jesus’ resurrection is possible only by faith. No one can prove that Jesus was dead when he was taken off the cross but Joseph of Arimathea, who was the one who did the work. And if the tomb was empty at the end of that Sabbath, it’s because Jesus had not been there the whole day long. Don’t you believe your own gospels?

Jesus was not seen dead. Who saw him dead? Tell me. If he had been dead, he would still be there at the end of that Sabbath. Why would anyone remove a dead body from the tomb? If I am looking through the lens of finding fault, what lenses are you looking through,
the lenses of the Church? Wake up and give yourself some credit in the understanding of your own Bible! You can do it.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

It isn’t right if you attack or someone attacks you. The first thing you did was attack me. Just because you are attacked does not give you the right to attack nor is it a defense.

I really don’t feel I attacked you by comparing you with a tick, as you limit your mental power by the mind of the Church. But obviously, you felt hurt and for that, I apologize.

Should I take the same meaning from your attack in calling me a tick??? Should I conclude you are jealous?

**No, but you should come from time to time out of your cocoon of seriousness and be a little sport. **

I don’t have much sympathy for you at the moment. I don’t like how some address you nor do I like how you address others sometimes.

Oh! You are still hurting. I already apologized didn’t I? So, let us get on with our learning. We don’t have the whole day.

I am not trying to remove you nor do I want you removed. I believe that you are disrespectful. I don’t believe that you are the expert and final word on what a Jewish person is.

What do you know about being Jewish? 98 percent of Jews would not give you the time of their lives to discuss these matters with you.

I have tried to treat you with respect and discuss that which I disagree with you on. I believe Jesus is God you do not that does not mean that I am attacking you. Nor do I take it as an attack when you say that Jesus is not God.

I know, but I take almost personal when a Christian uses a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism before the world by inserting Hellenistic innovations into it. That’s the reason why I took upon myself to defend the Faith of Jesus.

The salt of the earth are the disciples of Jesus who are persecuted for His sake.

Great! Jesus climbs up the mount, looks at the crowds of Jews getting ready to listen to his speech, and he delivers it in the ears of his disciples. Does it make sense to you? If it does, read Matthew 7:28. “Jesus finished his discourse and left the crowds spellbound at his teaching.” Would you say the crowds of his 12 disciples? See what I mean? Instead of asking you to prove that he meant the 12, I have shown you solid
evidences that he meant the Jews in general.

 

[Ben_Masada]

The texts were not written in English. You should not take one word and ignore those words that prove you wrong. You have no idea what the text says because you are looking through the lens of finding fault.

There was no blunder.

Jesus is God and He rose by His own power. You may not like this answer but that is the truth.

There is no truth in a dead man with power. Jesus was raised by the power of another man. I think it’s about time you get this printed in your mind. The editors of the NT would not translate a word from Greek into English and compromise the whole text in dealing with such a subject.

 

[abucs]

I’ll go along with John’s words of 2000 years ago, and witnessed and accepted by those successful and blessed Jews who laid the foundations of the Catholic Church.

Jesus - “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father”.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’ll go along with John’s words of 2000 years ago, and witnessed and accepted by those successful and blessed Jews who laid the foundations of the Catholic Church.

Jesus - “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father”.

**The Jews laid the foundations of the Sect of the Nazarenes, who were the legitimate followers of Jesus. Christianity was founded by Paul in Antioch, the place where Paul’s disciples were first called Christians. Why? Because Paul had spent a whole year there teaching about Jesus as Christ. Read Acts 11:26.

Regariding that quotation above about Jesus, it sounds like a joke. “No man taketh it from me,” and the Romans did it. “I lay it down of myself,” but against his will, because he prayed three times not to walk the via dolorosa. “I have power to lay it down,” albeit against his will, because he said be thy will done and NOT MINE. Obviously it was not his will to die on the cross. “And I have power to take it again,” thanks to Joseph of Arimathea who raised him from the tomb before he died. **

 

[abucs]

So you say Ben. I simply don’t agree with you. You don’t have any evidence apart from your own joining of the dots about Joseph. It is quite obvious that the eventual death of a naked man after hanging on a cross for hours is easily observable and verifiable to a group of Roman soldiers. Death on the cross is by asphyxiation. You cannot ‘play dead’ or go into a coma on the cross as there is a continual exaggerated up and down movement needed for breathing.

And Paul did not found Christianity. The name ‘Christian’ may first have been coined in Antioch, probably as a derogatory identification, but as Acts says, the Christian message was preached for 3 years before Paul’s conversion.

And as can be read from Paul’s letters, when push came to shove, he appealed to his connection with the apostles for his own authority and acceptance from the Christian population he was writing to.

 

[adrift]

**You are sure it happened. How sure are you, by faith? So, tell us that Jesus’ resurrection is possible only by faith. No one can prove that Jesus was dead when he was taken off the cross but Joseph of Arimathea, who was the one who did the work.

Jesus was not seen dead. Who saw him dead? Tell me. If he had been dead, he would still be there at the end of that Sabbath. Why would anyone remove a dead body from the tomb? If I am looking through the lens of finding fault, what lenses are you looking through,
the lenses of the Church? Wake up and give yourself some credit in the understanding of your own Bible! You can do it.**

Mary His mother saw Him dead. John saw Him die.

 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs,   but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed out.
An **eyewitness has testified**, and his testimony is true; he knows  that he is speaking the truth, so that you also may (come to) believe.

Your argument is silly. It is based on your own perceptions not on what is written. He was dead. It was so testified. We went through this in your thread about no piercing. The Roman soldier’s life depended on doing their job. They were experts. There victims did not survive. They certainly would not be able to walk the distance that His disciples say He did. You are right He would still be there at the end of Sabbath since if He hadn’t resurrected.

And if the tomb was empty at the end of that Sabbath, it’s because Jesus had not been there the whole day long. Don’t you believe your own gospels?

I believe the Gospels NOT YOUR interpretation and misreading of them.

 

[adrift]

adrift;5429611:

I really don’t feel I attacked you by comparing you with a tick, as you limit your mental power by the mind of the Church. But obviously, you felt hurt and for that, I apologize.

Do you know what a left handed compliment is? Well this is a left handed apology.

In your post you ranted about how badly you were treated perhaps those you refer to didn’t feel they were attacking you. Perhaps you don’t know what an attack is. Most of what you write could be written without the attacks. You are alway throwing in an attack. Are you really that obtuse? I don’t think you are stupid but it doesn’t show intelligence to say that to call someone a name is not an attack.

I know, but I take almost personal when a Christian uses a religious Jew to distort the image of Judaism before the world by inserting Hellenistic innovations into it. That’s the reason why I took upon myself to defend the Faith of Jesus.

When you start to prove what you say is Jewish, then maybe you will have some credibility. I have checked out somethings with Jewish friends and they shake their heads in disbelief at what you say is Jewish. So when you say I know because I am Jewish there is no reason to believe you. Provide some documentation.