The Mystery Of The Empty Tomb

[Lapell]

As for giving you an answer “within 24 hours”, no more, I was unable to do so, the Internet not being accessible at the shelter, and the chores having been slightly heavier lately because of a bed bug problem in the dormitory, so excuse me I was not quite ready to answer you properly. Truth is not restricted by time, though.
What you do with your soul is your decision, Ben. And frankly, given your merciless challenge, I thought you wouldn’t care whatever i would say. Yet I felt compelled to say something again this morning.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5550314:

The context of the passage refers to the demand by the Scribes and Pharisees who demanded a sign. Christ replied that only an evil generation demands a sign, and that the only sign it would be given was His death and resurrection, of which the episode of Jonah was a type. I doubt if the people of the time would have been so interested in a literal 3 days and 3 nights - they’d have realised that was not the thrust of the message.

**The guy who wrote that gospel was. Otherwise he would not have mentioned three days and three nights. **

But you’re so legalistic with your 20th century mindset, I doubt whether you’d be able to accept the thrust of the message, which was not a literal 3 days and 3 nights, any more than the oft repeated “40 days” in the Jewish Scriptures always meant a literal 40 days.

Why don’t you just say the guy made a fool of himself and leave at this? You are the one complicating things.

(Matthew) “12:38-42 The sign of Jonah (see Luke 11:29-32). Despite the miracles that Jesus had already worked, the scribes and Pharisees ask for more signs. The exasperated Jesus promises them only the sign of Jonah. The basic meaning of the sign of Jonah seems to involve the preaching of repentance to non-Jews and its acceptance by them. When the Old Testament prophet Jonah preached conversion of heart to the people of Nineveh, they acted on Jonah’s preaching and repented (v.41) The queen of Sheba came to Jerusalem to hear the wisdom of Solomon (see 1 Kgs 10:1-6), and she was duly impressed by him (v. 42). Jesus surpasses Jonah and Solomon and so the scribes and Pharisees have good reason to repent. In verse 40, Matthew has given a second interpretation of the sign of Johah: The three days spent by the prophet Jonah inside the fish (see Jonah 2) were a type of foreshadowing of Jesus’ death and his resurrection.”

Okay, I am ready to agree with you. So, why didn’t the guy who wrote Matthew just say three days. Why did he have to add also three nights? That was plain stupid if he could not explain the lack of fulfillment.

It’s an illustration by “type” which is how Scripture should be taught.

Nice try! I think you want me to get you off the hook.

Secondly we don’t know what the 3 days of Jonah were either. They could well have been Friday to Sunday.

**You are starting to get funny. Forget Jonah for heaven’s sake! There is nothing in Jonah about three days and three nights. The three days and three nights are in Matthew 12:40. If you don’t know the answer, ask me to let you off the hook and I will. **

 

[adrift]

While you are away, try to find the third night or part of it. I am all ears.

Hi Ben,

I haven’t gone yet but probably will not be able to return after tonight maybe even tomorrow morning. You have had an explanation in post 207. You rejected it by saying

I don’t care what Father Echert said.

I assume that means you really don’t want an answer to the 3 days and nights.

You are starting to get funny. Forget Jonah for heaven’s sake! **There is nothing in Jonah about three days and three nights. **The three days and three nights are in Matthew 12:40. If you don’t know the answer, ask me to let you off the hook and I will.

But the LORD sent a large fish, that swallowed Jonah; and he remained in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

 

[planten]

** I also noticed this time factor. Jesus was in the tomb for a very short time. He was removed from there to a safer place within hours. So he did not remain in the belly of the earth for more than a few hours.

But even if the tomb was not empty very soon, we do not see that Jesus was in the tomb for more than one day and two nights. i.e. night following the Friday was the first night. Then saturday (day) was the first day. Then night following Saturday was the second night. That makes one day and two nights There is no three days and three nights. What to do? .**

 

[adrift]

What to do? .

Read the thread it has been answered many times.

 

[Lapell]

** I also noticed this time factor. Jesus was in the tomb for a very short time. He was removed from there to a safer place within hours. So he did not remain in the belly of the earth for more than a few hours.

But even if the tomb was not empty very soon, we do not see that Jesus was in the tomb for more than one day and two nights. i.e. night following the Friday was the first night. Then saturday (day) was the first day. Then night following Saturday was the second night. That makes one day and two nights There is no three days and three nights. What to do? .**

planten, what is more important to God? To be dead strict without mercy? There were cases in the TaNaKH where God modified the sentence when there were signs of repentance. Isn’t life more important than the law itself? …though a law is necessary given our minds that yield so easily sometimes to tentation of doing things wrong

 

[Ben_Masada]

Hi Ben,

I haven’t gone yet but probably will not be able to return after tonight maybe even tomorrow morning. You have had an explanation in post 207. You rejected it by saying
I assume that means you really don’t want an answer to the 3 days and nights.

**I have just reread post 207. Your Father Echert cannot find the third night. Matthew specified three days and three nights. If I don’t find the third night I will register this as a classical contradiction of the NT. But the time has not expired yet. My ears are still on the sides of my head for an answer. Get busy! **

 

[Ben_Masada]

** I also noticed this time factor. Jesus was in the tomb for a very short time. He was removed from there to a safer place within hours. So he did not remain in the belly of the earth for more than a few hours.

But even if the tomb was not empty very soon, we do not see that Jesus was in the tomb for more than one day and two nights. i.e. night following the Friday was the first night. Then saturday (day) was the first day. Then night following Saturday was the second night. That makes one day and two nights There is no three days and three nights. What to do? .**

Embarrassing, isn’t it?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Embarrassing, isn’t it?

to you yes.

 

[Lapell]

**I have just reread post 207. Your Father Echert cannot find the third night. Matthew specified three days and three nights. If I don’t find the third night I will register this as a classical contradiction of the NT. But the time has not expired yet. My ears are still on the sides of my head for an answer. Get busy! **

Obviously you don’t consider God merciful. Moreover you want an answer that doesn’t fit God’s description. He is not so rigid in the TaNaKH…

 

[Lapell]

Obviously you don’t consider God merciful. Moreover you want an answer that doesn’t fit God’s description. He is not so rigid in the TaNaKH…

Moreover, you don’t believe in an afterlife like most traditional Orthodox Jews…

 

[adrift]

**I have just reread post 207. Your Father Echert cannot find the third night. Matthew specified three days and three nights. If I don’t find the third night I will register this as a classical contradiction of the NT. But the time has not expired yet. My ears are still on the sides of my head for an answer. Get busy! **

Your statement is incorrect. BTW I noticed that you did not retract your statement that there is nothing in Jonah about three days and three nights when there is.

Day 1: Late afternoon Friday prior to the sunset Day 2: The entire Sabbath day (Friday night and all of Saturday) Day 3: Sunday, which began with sunset at the close of the Sabbath (Saturday night and Sunday morning)

The more difficult matter is the reckoning of three nights. There are two or three proposed solutions to this matter:

1. Jesus may have been speaking loosely of the time span with regards to the nights, in accommodation of the OT reference to Jonah. This should not unsettle us with regards to inerrancy, for if it was intended loosely by the Lord, there is no error.

1. The afternoon darkness which settled upon the land as Jesus hung upon the cross as He was dying, perhaps caused by an eclipse in accord with divine providence, may account for the first of the nights, followed by the normal sunset of Friday and then followed by the normal sunset of Saturday. This would account for the three nights.

1. To understand this in the sense that our Lord meant part of the day of Preparation (Friday night), the whole of the Sabbath day (Saturday) and part of the day of the Resurrection (Sunday morning).

St. Augustine rejects the second option as unlikely; St. Jerome proposes the third option. I am in agreement with both and favor the third option. For our Lord did not say that He would spend three full nights in the earth but three nights, which is easily fulfilled by parts and the whole of the three days of Preparation, Sabbath, and Resurrection. ©

To say that Father Echert did not explain the days and nights is not true. If you are going to disagree give reasoned rebuttals. Explain why you do not accept his explanation. To just dismiss what he says is to admit that you cannot refute it.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Moreover, you don’t believe in an afterlife like most traditional Orthodox Jews…

In Judaism, what one believes is less important than what one does. Good deeds is the name of the game.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Your statement is incorrect. BTW I noticed that you did not retract your statement that there is nothing in Jonah about three days and three nights when there is.

To say that Father Echert did not explain the days and nights is not true. If you are going to disagree give reasoned rebuttals. Explain why you do not accept his explanation. To just dismiss what he says is to admit that you cannot refute it.

**Hey Adrift, sorry about that loose end regarding the three days and three nights of Jonah. I meant to say that I don’t want anything to do with Jonah about the three days and three nights, but from Matthew’s use of them.

Now, about Matthew 12:40, since he said specifically three days and three nights, you cannot pick up the same moments of a day or night and call them day and night, because he did not say three days and nights but three days and three nights. I explain. I am ready to accept that short time that took Joseph of Arimathea to get Jesus off the cross and into the tomb as the first day. The time from sunset to sundown gives us the first night. The time from sundown, Saturday to sunset, gives us the second day. Although I shouldn’t but I’ll give you those dark moments after sunset Saturday as a night. So, we have only two days and two nights. Where are you going to find another day and another night to save the prophecy of Matthew 12:40 from being a hoax?

Sorry Adrift, but the mouse has fallen in the trap for the cheese. Now, even by giving up the cheese for freedom from the trap, is not an option. I mean, there is no way out of this one. It’s like the infant Jesus of Luke in Nazareth and the one of Matthew in Egypt. The mouse had to die on the trap. This one will too. **

 

[adrift]

Now, about Matthew 12:40, since he said specifically three days and three nights, you cannot pick up the same moments of a day or night and call them day and night, because he did not say three days and nights but three days and three nights. I explain. I am ready to accept that short time that took Joseph of Arimathea to get Jesus off the cross and into the tomb as the first day. The time from sunset to sundown gives us the first night. The time from sundown, Saturday to sunset, gives us the second day. Although I shouldn’t but I’ll give you those dark moments after sunset Saturday as a night. So, we have only two days and two nights. Where are you going to find another day and another night to save the prophecy of Matthew 12:40 from being a hoax?

Sorry Adrift, but the mouse has fallen in the trap for the cheese. Now, even by giving up the cheese for freedom from the trap, is not an option. I mean, there is no way out of this one. It’s like the infant Jesus of Luke in Nazareth and the one of Matthew in Egypt. The mouse had to die on the trap. This one will too. QUOTE]

Ben we have been through this before. The way the people of the time counted was any part of a day is one day so that is Friday one day, Saturday two days and Sunday the third day. I hope you are not going back to the unsubstantiated claim of Saturday night that was your misreading. Jesus rose on Sunday.
That leaves us with three nights. Accordingly Fr. Ecbert provided THREE explanations which you do not address.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5573403:

Now, about Matthew 12:40, since he said specifically three days and three nights, you cannot pick up the same moments of a day or night and call them day and night, because he did not say three days and nights but three days and three nights. I explain. I am ready to accept that short time that took Joseph of Arimathea to get Jesus off the cross and into the tomb as the first day. The time from sunset to sundown gives us the first night. The time from sundown, Saturday to sunset, gives us the second day. Although I shouldn’t but I’ll give you those dark moments after sunset Saturday as a night. So, we have only two days and two nights. Where are you going to find another day and another night to save the prophecy of Matthew 12:40 from being a hoax?

Sorry Adrift, but the mouse has fallen in the trap for the cheese. Now, even by giving up the cheese for freedom from the trap, is not an option. I mean, there is no way out of this one. It’s like the infant Jesus of Luke in Nazareth and the one of Matthew in Egypt. The mouse had to die on the trap. This one will too. QUOTE]

Ben we have been through this before. The way the people of the time counted was any part of a day is one day so that is Friday one day, Saturday two days and Sunday the third day. I hope you are not going back to the unsubstantiated claim of Saturday night that was your misreading. Jesus rose on Sunday.
That leaves us with three nights. Accordingly Fr. Ecbert provided THREE explanations which you do not address.

Read the text. It says before sundown. Towards sundown. It was not sundown yet. It means you are not off the hook. From sunset to sundown, you cannot count as a night and a day together. You could if Matthew 12:40 was about three days and nights. But he said three and three nights. So the days and the nights must be there or the mouse will breathe his last still on the trap.

 

[marymol]

Interesting how this debate gives another occasion for those who want to love and trust …in spite of …as the disciples had to , when our Lord first mentioned about the need to feed on Him - accepting His infinite love and desire to be with His children …and the need the children have , to be in constant touch with the Father’s love , mercy and power, to live with peace in this world that is under power of darkness and not let that darkness of hatred and fears come into their own … those words of The Word would have seemed against much of the understanding of teh disciples too at time …yet they trusted Him, because they loved Him enough …and thus again undoing the choice of distrust in The Garden …

Here too, may be it is the children who have been so very blessed to be in that role through the gift of Baptism , that can accept His words with trust …and for the others , again a stumbling stone …

And again an occasion of gratful rejoicing too when some vague questions in the past in this area gets answered so well …that darkness that spread over the earth , at the time when our Lord was on The Cross …( mercy of The Father , that instead of annhilating the whole creation in one second, He only gives enough signs to help those around !)…the sun returning that same day …for the less Pharisee hearted and more trusting ones , that is good enough and more …for His children , who knows He Is the Lord of The Sabbath too …One who let the sun go back …to aid a battle …and that this too is an occasion of trusting Him and not using human wisdom , that also asked ’ Is He not the son of Joseph !"

It is hard to trust that God who Is Love can be so loving …esp. since The Garden , when the agent of fear and hatred had come in …

May The Father help our unbelief , through the Merits of His infinite Love and the Power of The Holy Spirit !

Peace !

 

[Ben_Masada]

Interesting how this debate gives another occasion for those who want to love and trust …in spite of …as the disciples had to , when our Lord first mentioned about the need to feed on Him - accepting His infinite love and desire to be with His children …and the need the children have , to be in constant touch with the Father’s love , mercy and power, to live with peace in this world that is under power of darkness and not let that darkness of hatred and fears come into their own … those words of The Word would have seemed against much of the understanding of teh disciples too at time …yet they trusted Him, because they loved Him enough …and thus again undoing the choice of distrust in The Garden …

Here too, may be it is the children who have been so very blessed to be in that role through the gift of Baptism , that can accept His words with trust …and for the others , again a stumbling stone …

And again an occasion of gratful rejoicing too when some vague questions in the past in this area gets answered so well …that darkness that spread over the earth , at the time when our Lord was on The Cross …( mercy of The Father , that instead of annhilating the whole creation in one second, He only gives enough signs to help those around !)…the sun returning that same day …for the less Pharisee hearted and more trusting ones , that is good enough and more …for His children , who knows He Is the Lord of The Sabbath too …One who let the sun go back …to aid a battle …and that this too is an occasion of trusting Him and not using human wisdom , that also asked ’ Is He not the son of Joseph !"

It is hard to trust that God who Is Love can be so loving …esp. since The Garden , when the agent of fear and hatred had come in …

May The Father help our unbelief , through the Merits of His infinite Love and the Power of The Holy Spirit !

Peace !

Was he not the son of Joseph indeed? It is much better for us to give “yes” for an answer,because the otpion is catastrophic.

 

[marymol]

Was he not the son of Joseph indeed? It is much better for us to give “yes” for an answer,because the otpion is catastrophic.

Interesting that you bring up fatherhood …because I was about to bring in Motherhood …as to why the 'day ’ seemed to have been ‘shortened ’ … was it becuase there was a Mother , who was willing to let go …a while ago …with loving trust …and to whom the words were spoken ’ my hour has not yet come …’ The Trinity , could they not have responded to the prayers of that heart broken Mother …our Mother …and had it so arranged , from all eternity , that even if ’ the hour ’ had not yet come …even if some questiong minds want to hold onto the perceptions of having been shortchanged a day …

( In the Garden too, the enemy had accused The Father …to the children , with similar arguments - that they too were being shortchanged a certain knowledge !)

Soon The Church would celebrate the Queenship of our Bl.Mother !

.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp

An area where the enemy has tried hard to bring in errors such as trying to turn the hearts of children to pagan goddess worship ( Ashtarte etc : )so that they would be afraid to trust again in God granting anyone such a role …

even the one well known queen mother of Old Testament , mother of Solomon , seems to be a failure in this regard … seemingly having asked for the wrong favor ( of giving up the concubine of King David and may be some power with it too - not that King Solomon did not have enough concubines ! were the elements of idolatrous selfishness already evident …after all, Bathsheba was of Hittite origins …and did she misread the heart of her son , unlike …well we know Who …and the rest of the sad history , depicting how human wisdom alone , without loving trust , is a map for failure …or was it from not honoring the mother …

Thank God we do have a Mother , to make up for all such shortcomings … to lead us in paths we need to tread …and to overcome the enemy … this sharing of even such a glorious Mother , is the mercy of a Father …and The Son …BenMary … that we are too …

Peace !

 

[Ben_Masada]

Interesting that you bring up fatherhood …because I was about to bring in Motherhood …as to why the 'day ’ seemed to have been ‘shortened ’ … was it becuase there was a Mother , who was willing to let go …a while ago …with loving trust …and to whom the words were spoken ’ my hour has not yet come …’ The Trinity , could they not have responded to the prayers of that heart broken Mother …our Mother …and had it so arranged , from all eternity , that even if ’ the hour ’ had not yet come …even if some questiong minds want to hold onto the perceptions of having been shortchanged a day …

( In the Garden too, the enemy had accused The Father …to the children , with similar arguments - that they too were being shortchanged a certain knowledge !)

Soon The Church would celebrate the Queenship of our Bl.Mother !

.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp

An area where the enemy has tried hard to bring in errors such as trying to turn the hearts of children to pagan goddess worship ( Ashtarte etc : )so that they would be afraid to trust again in God granting anyone such a role …

even the one well known queen mother of Old Testament , mother of Solomon , seems to be a failure in this regard … seemingly having asked for the wrong favor ( of giving up the concubine of King David and may be some power with it too - not that King Solomon did not have enough concubines ! were the elements of idolatrous selfishness already evident …after all, Bathsheba was of Hittite origins …and did she misread the heart of her son , unlike …well we know Who …and the rest of the sad history , depicting how human wisdom alone , without loving trust , is a map for failure …or was it from not honoring the mother …

Thank God we do have a Mother , to make up for all such shortcomings … to lead us in paths we need to tread …and to overcome the enemy … this sharing of even such a glorious Mother , is the mercy of a Father …and The Son …BenMary … that we are too …

Peace !

Indeed, this talk of a Mother-Queen in Heaven, as the link mentions, sounds too scandalous to commonsense, since God is Incorporeal and occupies no space.