The name of the rose movie

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There’s a graphic sex scene in it. 😦
That was rather unnecessary and ruined the movie to an extent.

If it were edited for TV (and possibly has been), that scene would have been edited, or deleted, and the movie would improve itself quite a bit IMO.
 
That was rather unnecessary and ruined the movie to an extent.

If it were edited for TV (and possibly has been), that scene would have been edited, or deleted, and the movie would improve itself quite a bit IMO.
I saw the movie on tv last fall. That scene was still included, but we had satellite then so it wasn’t a local or family channel. The first time I saw the movie I was not Catholic, but the last time I saw it I was. I didn’t think it was anti-catholic. It just made me feel old because Sean Connery and Christian Slater were so young!

The sex scene with Slater doesn’t add to the movie by any means.
It is not comfortable to watch. I still hope to read the book and it is a good murder mystery.
 
I think it odd that we watched this movie in high school English (it was a partial film class - the sex scene was mostly edited out). We also watched several other movies and a few books that had anti-Catholic themes. This was in a public school.

I do think some of the historical inaccuracies are bothersome, as have been pointed out.

Remembering this movie, in context with some of the other texts of that class, has made me want to be very vigilant about what my children are exposed to in school. I wonder that our teacher didn’t have some kind of an agenda.
 
I still hope to read the book and it is a good murder mystery.
It has been a very long time since I have read the book; this thread is inspiring me to go dig it out! The movie is basically an outline of the book. Of course, the book is much more detailed and is far more complex than the movie. You should get yourself a copy…I think you would enjoy it. I remember the sadness at the end…😦
 
I liked the movie because I like movies set in that time frame.
I am sympathetic to that. I really am–in fact it occurs to me now as I think about it that the gateway to all sin is actually alluring and seductive, and as a terrible sinner myself I am quite sincerely sympathetic to how attractive the worship of idols can be–we may laugh how absurd it seemed for the Israelites which Moses brought out of Egypt to fall so quickly back in the worship of idols. After everything that had just happened to them. But I can see it through my own life and my own repeated stumbles understanding how absolute seems the provocation to desire, when it overtakes one, to give in to the pleasures of this world. To in effect not simply take pleasure in life but to worship what we desire over relationship with the Living God. Yes if I was in Sinai desert on that day I fear I too would have worshiped the man made thing and taken part in the orgy that followed.

In any event what I’ve come to find out over the last few days as I read a few books since my last post and watched a one documentary, namely Glorious Crusades and 1994 BBC documentary entitled The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition, is that we are, apparently, in a golden age for the academic study of both of these topics. There is a scholarly consensus and it is diametrically opposed the the continually repeated myths that no doubt over the long term leave our souls infected. So I mention the Crusades along with the Inquisition presenting in the before mentioned film because how the lies become culturally entrenched are similar if not identical in both cases.
  1. Protestants during the reformation used the printing press to spread all the lies we still tell today.
  2. The Enlightenment soon after took over giving these lies some early academic respectability.
  3. modern media, especially the Hollywood movies, enshrined these falsehoods as truths that become unconsciously planted in our very being.
To prefer a seductive lie, especially about something so grave as the Church, over the truth is not actually a small, innocent matter. It suggests at the very least a seed of rebellion in the person which presents resistance in fully embracing the Church, one’s salvation and desire to cooperate with God’s grace.
 
I don’t agree with Devoted_to_Jude’s opinion about the film being “profoundly anti-Catholic”. The film portrayed Catholics that were variously enlightened, compassionate, cruel and misguided. In short, a variety of people. In portraying the events that unfolded at one remote monastery associated with one clerical debate involving a particular group of clergy, I don’t think that the film says anything very much about the Catholic Church at that time or in the present day. I enjoyed it as a great story without looking for a real or imagined message.
Lots of great Catholic works present people who are variously “enlightened, compassionate, cruel and misguided” like Evelyn Waugh’s Brideshead Revisted, which is a fantastic novel, or slightly more innocently G.K.Chesterton’s Father Brown stories. That is not my complaint in the least.

The spirituality in The Name of the Rose is profoundly Protestant, and it maligns the Church with outrageous lies about the courts of the Inquisition. You didn’t see those torture devices and the implication of that everybody must fear the Inquisition even to go so far as to deny the truth in a legal proceeding? It implied essentially that the Church will demand you commit a mortal sin by lying or it will torture you for not doing so. You don’t find this egregious? Such a lie as that could have come out the very mouth of the Adversary, himself. Who else would present the Church as being so evil as to demand you commit a mortal sin or face excommunication if not torture and death? This was, however, exactly the type of propaganda the Reformation spread about the Church. Was the Reformation not anti-Catholic?

It also implied the grand lie that the Church opposes reason, when really fullness of reason is only ever found within the Church.

We have very good primary historical records because the Inquisition was a court system. As I mentioned in my last post we are in a Golden Age of academic research on this subject. In my original post only a few days ago I even continued to spread misinformation about the Inquisition when I referenced abuses of the Spanish Inquisition. It turns out that was all false.

The 1994 BBC documentary, The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition, is on YouTube and it is only 46 minutes long, and I will post a link to it at the bottom if I am able to do that here.

Ultimately, if one cannot recognize the heretical spirituality presented in this movie then I assert that is a real problem for their Catholic faith. How we believe, after all proceeds how we live.

youtube.com/watch?v=QnAToomzc00
 
** WARNING: POTENTIAL SPOILERS (if you haven’t seen the film) **
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Devoted_to_Jude:
The spirituality in The Name of the Rose is profoundly Protestant …
In the film that I watched there was more than one type of spirituality portrayed. The various spiritualities of William of Baskerville, Remigio di Varagine, Salvatore, the Venerable Jorge and Bernado Gui, to name only a few, are notably disparate. There are certainly a variety of religious views portrayed in the film. Some are heretical, and are identified as such. Others might be considered Protestant. The film is partly about the disagreements within the Catholic Church at that time.
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Devoted_to_Jude:
… and it maligns the Church with outrageous lies about the courts of the Inquisition.
Is the depiction of the court proceeding historically accurate in every significant detail? I don’t know. Quite possibly not. But the film is not a historical documentary. It is my understanding that both secular and ecclesiastical tribunals commonly employed torture in those days. The Inquisition may have used torture far less than other courts, but they still used it, or threatened to use it. In the most serious cases (as in the film), if impenitent heretics were found guilty they were frequently handed over to the secular authorities to be burnt at the stake. In these respects, at least, I don’t think that the depiction in the film includes any outrageous lies.
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Devoted_to_Jude:
It implied essentially that the Church will demand you commit a mortal sin by lying or it will torture you for not doing so.
The film didn’t imply that to me. The film showed that a particular person threatened torture in order to ensure corroboration of a sentence of heresy, so as to perpetuate the status and influence enjoyed by that wicked and corrupt inquisitor. In the film he did not represent the whole Church. Were this man and his acts egregious? Of course. It wouldn’t have been a good film if the villain had been guilty only of a few lies and bad table manners.

As to “the fullness of reason only ever being found within the Church”, I suspect that Galileo Galilei might have disagreed with you following the adjudication of the Roman Inquisition in 1615. Where observed facts contradict the current interpretation of scripture, the Church has historically been noticeably slow to admit to reason.

To others I say: don’t take our word for it. Watch the film and make up ypur own mind.
 
Part 1
In the film that I watched there was more than one type of spirituality portrayed. The various spiritualities of William of Baskerville, Remigio di Varagine, Salvatore, the Venerable Jorge and Bernado Gui, to name only a few, are notably disparate. There are certainly a variety of religious views portrayed in the film.
This is interesting to me that you really don’t seem to get it, and I guess it comes down to how we read stories and how we understand that stories may mean things. Yes there are a variety of characters with different religious views in the film, but they all go to support one major premise: that the Catholic Church stinks, like a fish, from the head. Which was the Reformations rallying cry.

You seem to take the characters at face value and then fail to see how they work as whole to communicate a particular message. What I wonder now is does that mean the message is lost on your or is it still implanted in you unconsciously? In other words even though you don’t take the film’s meaning has it nevertheless–along with the barrage of other constant negative media messages–still effected your attitude towards the Magisterium in subtle but perhaps profound ways.
Is the depiction of the court proceeding historically accurate in every significant detail? I don’t know. Quite possibly not. But the film is not a historical documentary.
Again this is not really what I am talking about. I am not addressing the historical accuracy of the portrayal so much as what type of fiction it is. Once again it is one that portrays the Church as stinking from the head. The portrayal of the Inquisition scenes aren’t an attack on Christianity they are an attack on the Bishop of Rome. The evil Vatican that dispatches its sinister henchmen so that otherwise good and religious persons, like William of Baskerville (you see if this character was not portrayed with such a contrasting spirituality then this underlying theme could not have been portrayed), will be forced to comprise their honest faith in order to tow the Vatican’s line. Again this was essentially the Reformations rallying cry.
It is my understanding that both secular and ecclesiastical tribunals commonly employed torture in those days. The Inquisition may have used torture far less than other courts, but they still used it, or threatened to use it. In the most serious cases (as in the film), if impenitent heretics were found guilty they were frequently handed over to the secular authorities to be burnt at the stake. In these respects, at least, I don’t think that the depiction in the film includes any outrageous lies.
Maybe you just didn’t watch the film very closely? Did you not see Salvatore’s mangled hand? Yes torture was used by the Church, but in such as way that it could only be termed enlightened based on the standards of the time. In an age when people may be disemboweled or have their eyes gouged out over minor criminal offenses, the Church prohibited any torture that would bodily harm and was not allowed to continue for more than 15 minutes, and it was seldom applied more than once.

However this isn’t really the salient point. Yes the Reformation spread these exact lies about the Catholic Church, but the egregiousness comes from what the both the Reformation and the film intend by them; and that is to suggest that the Bishop of Rome is an anti-Christ–I suspect you will not follow this, and it may even strike you as so much hyperbole; but literally who else but an anti-Christ would torture a man for attempting to live the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Whenever God’s goodness, e.g. providing us the Church with the Sacraments and setting that Church upon a rocky foundation (the Chair of Peter), is called evil, e.g. that the Church really isn’t a vehicle for salvation but rather an institution of oppression that is in reality an obstacle to one’s relationship with God, I say that suffices to be considered an egregiousness lie. I can understand a Protestant not feeling that this may be a lie, but a Catholic? I am curious how you attempt square with this with your own profession of faith?
 
Part 2
The film showed that a particular person threatened torture in order to ensure corroboration of a sentence of heresy, so as to perpetuate the status and influence enjoyed by that wicked and corrupt inquisitor.
Which the film makes very clear acts on behalf of the Vatican, itself. Remember it was not the Pope or a higher ecclessial council that saved William of Baskerville the first time around, but rather (from the movies perspective) a presumably enlightened secular Emperor. These might be small points in themselves but like individual brush stokes they add up to create a whole painting.
In the film he did not represent the whole Church. Were this man and his acts egregious? Of course. It wouldn’t have been a good film if the villain had been guilty only of a few lies and bad table manners.
Yes villains should be bad. The difference between our perspectives is that I do not look upon the Church as the villain. However yet again this was the Reformation’s rallying cry.
As to “the fullness of reason only ever being found within the Church”, I suspect that Galileo Galilei might have disagreed with you following the adjudication of the Roman Inquisition in 1615.
I think you may have answered the question I posed above: whether you see my points about the film or not it does appear to have warped your perspective about the Church.

Allow me a moment to preface what I would like to say next. No doubt we have had some sinful Popes. It was never Christ’s promise to us that we wouldn’t. The promise is that doctrine and and sanctity of the sacraments will be preserved through good Popes and bad… as an aside we happened in fact to have one of our most corrupt Popes in office during Martin Luther’s life.

Now the Galileo affair involved more than just the science. However on the strict question of the science the Church was actually justified at the time. Does this surprise you? Well allow me to explain more fully: with the science that Galileo had at his disposal he could not prove by any standard specialists would be convinced to accept hat the earth moved around a fixed sun. Without the later discovery of gravity by Newton there were far more new inconsistencies created by Galileo’s account than old inconsistencies it solved. The Church refuted Galileo on scientific grounds, not religious grounds. Although like I said the whole story is much more complicated…

The Church is not a big bad wolf. I believe it is only the ubiquitous and unrelenting portrayals of it as such, like with this movie, that leads so many Catholics to adopt, if only unconsciously, this attitude themselves–even if only comes out in relation to certain issues. When the Church is portrayed as big bad monster it is always a lie–but do the research yourself–and this lie is always most egregious.

Certainly to the degree the Church has entered the world, the world has also entered the Church, but where the Church seems to falter if you look closely you will see it was always the failure of men and what is on display is not the Church’s values but rather the world’s.
To others I say: don’t take our word for it. Watch the film and make up ypur own mind.
If you have got this far and heard our competing arguments then agreed.
 
Devoted-to_Jude, you argue your case very well. Whether the anti-Catholic message that you allude to is actually there in the film, or whether you’re finding a message that’s not intended, I don’t know. Umberto Eco’s work is full of symbols, allusions and meanings within meanings.

I’ve watched the film many times and enjoyed the acting performances, the locations and the twists of the story-line. II enjoy it primarily as a mystery and as a period drama. I don’t think that it has ever influenced my opinions of the Church or the Reformation, one way or the other. But clearly you interpret it differently.
 
I liked the book a lot. I only have a hazy memory of the movie, but one grip I have with the movie is: Bernard Gui died in it. 😃

(Spoilers below)

“Now,” he added, “the Antichrist is truly at hand, because no learning will hinder him any more. For that matter, we have seen his face tonight.”
“Whose face?” I asked, dazed.
“Jorge, I mean. In his face, deformed by hatred of philosophy, I saw for the first time the portrait of the Antichrist, who does not come from the tribe of Judas, as his heralds have it, or from a far country. The Antichrist can be born from piety itself, from excessive love of God or of the truth, as the heretic is born from the saint and the possessed from the seer. Fear prophets, Adso, and those prepared to die for the truth, for as a rule they make many others die with them, often before them, at times instead of them. Jorge did a diabolical thing because he loved his truth so lewdly that he dared anything in order to destroy falsehood. Jorge feared the second book of Aristotle because it perhaps really did teach how to distort the face of every truth, so that we would not become slaves of our ghosts. Perhaps the mission of those who love mankind is to make people laugh at the truth, to make truth laugh, because the only truth lies in learning to free ourselves from insane passion for the truth.”

I think this is the irony of Jorge: Jorge considered laughter a most dangerous exercise of liberty that easily leads to doubt, and is a subversive force that could undermine established authority and customs, and so it is an enemy of the truth that should be purged. So he jealously protected the lost second book of Aristotle’s Poetics, which (in this novel) deals with comedy, to the point of committing murder. Jorge’s piety has turned him into a monster, an image of the Antichrist. (This glorification of laughter is actually very post-modern: the Reformation and the Renaissance brought the idea of laughter as an enemy of reason.)

(This quote really speaks to me because I see modern-day fundamentalists and extremists of various religions or none as similar to Jorge: their extreme zeal and love of their truth transforms them into monsters that do more harm than good.)

William, however, in solving the case, realizes that humans are misguided in their attempts to establish a clearly-defined and stable order in the world; for him, laughter is the embodied recognition of the ultimate omnipotence and freedom of the divine that makes a mockery of all human attempts to order the world in God’s name. In the book, William by the end realizes that the ‘pattern’ of the murders only referred to the seven trumpets of Revelation by accident: “There was no plot, and I discovered it by mistake.”
“I have never doubted the truth of signs, Adso; they are the only things man has with which to orient himself in the world. What I did not understand was the relation among signs. I arrived at Jorge through an apocalyptic pattern that seemed to underlie all the crimes, and yet it was accidental. I arrived at Jorge seeking one criminal for all the crimes and we discovered that each crime was committed by a different person, or by no one. I arrived at Jorge pursuing the plan of a perverse and rational mind, and there was no plan, or rather, Jorge himself was overcome by his own initial design and there began a sequence of causes, and concauses, and of causes contradicting one another, which proceeded on their own, creating relations that did not stem from any plan. Where is all my wisdom then? I behaved stubbornly, pursuing a semblance of order, when I should have known well that there is no order in the universe.”
“But in imagining an erroneous order you still found something …”
“What you say is very fine, Adso, and I thank you. The order that our mind imagines is like a net, or like a ladder, built to attain something. But afterward you must throw the ladder away, because you discover that, even if it was useful, it was meaningless. Er muos gelischesame die leiter abewerfen, so er an ir ufgestigen. He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.] … Is that how you say it?”
“That is how it is said in my language. Who told you that?”
“A mystic from your land. He wrote it somewhere, I forget where. And it is not necessary for somebody one day to find that manuscript again. The only truths that are useful are instruments to be thrown away.”
“You have no reason to reproach yourself: you did your best.”
“A human best, which is very little. It’s hard to accept the idea that there cannot be an order in the universe because it would offen the free will of God and His omnipotence. So the freedom of God is our condemnation, or at least the condemnation of our pride.”
I dared, for the first and last time in my life, to express a theological conclusion: “But how can a necessary being exist totally polluted with the possible? What difference is there, then, between God and primogenial chaos? Isn’t affirming God’s absolute omnipotence and His absolute freedom with regard to His own choices tantamount to demonstrating that God does not exist?”
William looked at me without betraying any feeling in his features, and he said, “How could a learned man go on communicating his learning if he answered yes to your question?” I did not understand the meaning of his words. “Do you mean,” I asked, “that there would be no possible and communicable learning any more if the very criterion of truth were lacking, or do you mean you could no longer communicate what you know because others would not allow you to?”
 
Oh yeah, there’s actually this BBC radio dramatization of the book which, while abbreviating stuff, I can still say turns out much more faithful to it than the film. Here’s part 1 of it. youtube.com/watch?v=kkVvnqimy2s
 
Has anyone watch it?
Is it a good movie to watch?
I believe the actor is Sean Connery & Christian Slater.
Thanks.
I read the book first and saw the movie later.

I preferred the book, and I may still have it on my shelves. The book does a better job of describing the medieval mindset which set the scene for the story, whereas the movie didn’t go into what might be called the religious-psychological side all that deeply.

The movie was orientated towards action, whereas the book was more cerebral.
 
I have such a vague reccolection of that movie. All I remember is I used to have a big crush on Christian Slater lol. I think I will check out the book though.
 
Well I saw this movie when it first came out on video years ago as I remember I found it very offensive on many fronts. I found it to be just another anticatholic or antichristian Hollywood vehicle. If you want a good medievil mystery try the Father Catafile Mystries from PBS made by the bbc. I found those wonderful and very well made. They are also based on a book series. There are some racy subject matters but the church is always handled with respect and the Catafiles charactor is portrayed really well by Derek Jacobi. I’m not sure if I spelled the charactors name correctly but you can google it via pbs.
 
I read the book first and saw the movie later.

I preferred the book, and I may still have it on my shelves. The book does a better job of describing the medieval mindset which set the scene for the story, whereas the movie didn’t go into what might be called the religious-psychological side all that deeply.

The movie was orientated towards action, whereas the book was more cerebral.
I think that was the movie’s weakness, really. By eliminating the theology and the politics (which is the backbone of the book), it was reduced to a shadow of itself. But then again, I learned never to trust filmmakers doing adaptations of books.

Though Eco did say once:

“A book like this is a club sandwich, with turkey, salami, tomato, cheese, lettuce. And the movie is obliged to choose only the lettuce or the cheese, eliminating everything else – the theological side, the political side. It’s a nice movie. I was told that a girl entered a bookstore and seeing the books said: ‘Oh, they have already made a book out of it.’”

To be honest, I think they kinda overblew the Inquisition subplot in the movie really (going by my rather hazy recollection of it), when it was really just more of a side issue in the book.
 
The historical context of The Name of the Rose is:

This was the papacy of John XXII (reigned 1316-1344), one of the Avignon popes. Two years before John became pope (1314), a disputed imperial election produced two claimants to the throne of the Holy Roman Emperor, one of whom, Louis of Bavaria (Louis IV), eventually triumphed over his rival (Frederick I ‘the Handsome’ of Austria) within a few years. The pope (Clement V) and a conclave to elect the new pope was being held in Avignon, but it was plagued by a great deal of intrigue and even threats of violence against the cardinals, so the interregnum lasted for two years until in 1316 the conclave finally elected a Frenchman who chose the name of John XXII.

John intended to restore papal authority in Italy, and to that end he sided with Louis IV’s rival (refusing to recognize Louis’ claim to the throne) and ultimately declared Louis excommunicated. Louis, meanwhile, responded by invading Italy, “deposing” the pope, and setting up his own anti-pope.

Louis and John fought over various issues. On one level, it was a power struggle: Louis advocated a separation of Church and State, in response to John’s claim of (political) authority over Italy and by extension, the Empire. Louis was backed by philosophers such as Marsilius of Padua and the Franciscans Michael of Cesena and William of Ockham (one of the models for The Name of the Rose’s William of Baskerville).

There was also the feud between the Franciscans and John. St. Francis founded the order on the principle of poverty: the friars were forbidden to own anything and had to beg or live by the work of their hands. Over time, the rigor of this rule was relaxed for practical reasons. (In the mid-12th century, for instance, a loophole around this rule was devised: all Franciscan property was vested to the Holy See, who in turn allowed the Franciscans its use; legally speaking, the Franciscans do not ‘own’ their property, so no rule broken.) This led to the rise of the so-called ‘Spiritual’ Franciscans, who called for a return to the radical character of St. Francis’ original ideal, which forbade not only individual friars but also the community as a whole to own anything.

Over time, the issue shifted to whether Jesus and the apostles were poor and owned nothing. The Spirituals claimed that they were (sometimes they argued that this is or should be a matter of doctrine), and that they were following their example. Some of the more radical segments of the group had come to teach that radical poverty was the essence of the Christian life and that the only true Christians were those who practiced it: ergo, the pope and the bishops (none of whom even pretended to practice poverty) are not true Christians. The extremists even came to repudiate all ecclesiastical hierarchy as a perversion of the gospel.

John, in his part, tried to suppress what he considered to be the excesses of the Spirituals. In 1322, he returned Franciscan property (which was legally possessed by the Holy See) to the order’s ownership and granted them exemption from the rule that absolutely forbade ownership of anything even in common. Ordinarily one might see it as an act of kindness, but was in fact intended to bring rebellious Franciscans to heel by forcing them to repudiate what the pope regarded as an extreme doctrine. This move, however, also angered many of the ‘mainstream’ Franciscans (who still tried to defend a more moderate stance on the issue of poverty), because they saw it as a breach against the rule of their order.

In the same year, John convened a group of theologians to examine the idea of poverty based on belief that Christ and the apostles owned nothing. The experts disagreed among themselves, but the majority condemned the idea on the grounds that it would condemn the Church’s right to have possessions. The Franciscans, however, in a chapter in Perugia, declared otherwise: “To say or assert that Christ, in showing the way of perfection, and the Apostles, in following that way and setting an example to others who wished to lead the perfect life, possessed nothing either severally or in common, either by right of ownership and dominium or by personal right, we corporately and unanimously declare to be not heretical, but true and catholic.” The next year, John declared “erroneous and heretical” the idea that Jesus and the apostles had no possessions whatever; influential Franciscans like Michael of Cesena and William of Ockham (who were somewhat sympatethic to the Spiritualists) complained and even accused the pope of being the heretic.

Louis saw the Franciscans as being useful to his own purposes. By espousing their cause he armed himself with a useful weapon against the papacy, since he could then argue that John XXII had forfeited the title ‘Vicar of Christ’ because of his own luxurious manner of living and his condemnation of the radical Franciscans and the belief in the poverty of Christ.
 
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