The Name Our Lady

  • Thread starter Thread starter Inbetweener
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I

Inbetweener

Guest
When did Catholics first start calling our Blessed Mother ‘Our Lady’? Do orthodox churches call her that? Since the Orthodox/Coptic Church honors our Blessed Mother and even had some apparitions in Egypt, why didn’t she give the rosary to them? Assuming they don’t have it. Mary apparition cannot conflict with each other.
 
Too many churches in UK called Our Lady of so and so and rarely I have heard someone call her Queen of Heaven in conversation. I noticed the Greek Catholic - who have the rosary don’t call her Our Lady. Every Irish Catholic i encountered call her that, rarely someone have said Theorokos, God bearer.
 
“Lady” is considered a title of honor, similar to “Lord” or “Master” for a man. Since "Lord " is the title applied to Jesus in the Bible, it makes sense that His Mother would be called “Lady”.
 
Lady is a very English, British word, what do they refer to her in early church, in Latin or Greek.
 
I think the concept of Our Lady aka Notre Dame aka Nuestra Senora is associated strongly with feudal Europe. Your average Irish Catholic who has not studied religion or been in contact with Eastern churches is not going to know the term “Theotokos” and will know Mary as “Our Lady”, the “Blessed Mother”, the “Mother of God” from the Hail Mary, etc. I’m Irish Catholic and never heard the word Theotokos till about last year.
 
It’s not just a British concept as she is Notre Dame in French and Nuestra Senora in Spanish, also Domina in Latin, all the same idea.

However, her earliest titles were Mother of God (Theotokos) or Holy Virgin. Devotion to Mary didn’t really get going strongly until the 300s or 400s, so she did not have many titles before that.

Here is an article that may be helpful to you.

http://www.earlychristians.org/inde...votion-to-the-virgin-mary-in-the-early-church
 
Thanks for the info. I noticed priest say in mass …
Our Lady of Fatima pray for us.
Our Lady of Lourdes pray for us etc. Why not use Blessed Mother of Fatima or Blessed Virgin. Just want to find out when it originated.
 
I wish I can tell you whether or not Orthodox use Our Lady for Mary.

My Orthodox prayer book is written in Dutch. We use Theotokos, Moeder Gods, Alreine Moeder (Holy Mother).

Orthodox prayer rope goes way back before Catholic rosary.

We pray Our Father on the big knot (separated knot) and the Jesus Prayer on small beads (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us, sinners!).
 
This is very interesting. Obviously Orthodox would not say Blessed Mother Fatima or Lourdes etc unless it is an approved apparition
 
I have been to Lourdes last year. I LOVE IT! I long to go there again.

I went there not for pilgrimage. I meant, pilgrim was not the first intention of going there. I wanted to be at the place where St. Bernadette of Sobirous had been as she was the first saint I read a story about when I was a kid.

Blessed Mother Fatima? Lourdes? No, but here’s a thing to understand (in my own words, ok): hmmm…how can I say this, miracles happen in Orthodoxy, but the Orthodox don’t see it as how the RC does it. The places where miracles happened are not “legalized” as how the RC does it. My opinion is that the Orthodox question about hmmm…almost everything that has something to do with the faith. So, the Marian apparitions like at Fatima, Lourdes, etc are questionable. However, Orthodox consider miracles as a part of the faith, but we don’t emphasize it, I meant, if I can say or describe it in a conversation roughly, it would be like this:
  • RC: hey, Mother Mary just appeared at that Church today
  • EO: great!
Btw, Western rite Orthodox also recite rosary. With the same mysteries as how the RC does. But without Fatima prayer and without Luminous mystery. I myself included Luminous mystery when reciting a rosary because I don’t see why not.

And about saying Blessed Mother Fatima (or any place which miracle has occured): because Orthodox doesn’t emphasize miracles, we don’t call her something like: Blessed Mother Santorini (if there’s ever been a Marian apparition in Santorini). We don’t give Her or other saints, or Jesus names like that. We also don’t do adoration. I meant, say we adore Jesus (we do adore Him, obviously!), we don’t do adoration like how the RC does: adoring the wound of Jesus, or maybe head, or name other body parts.
 
Last edited:
Vanez thanks for sharing that - you have things in common but the way you react to it is different. Do you feel the RC overdo these apparitions, miracles when really the mass is the most important.
 
I dont know whether to say the RC overdo it, but i must admit that when i was in Lourdes, it all seemed to be all about Mary. No Jesus. I am in my opinion that Mary can’t be separated from Jesus. The Orthodox icons always depict Mary with Jesus. Never without.

Are you an inquirer? Or are you a Roman Catholic? There are good things in both Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, although the journey to the Orthodox Church is not an easy one for me (in the very beginning i had a very severe headaches because i have been taught at a Catholic school hence it was so difficult for me to learn about Orthodoxy), i dont think i can be Roman Catholic (either Latin rite or Byzantine) because i dont believe in e.g. Mary apparition at Fatima and a few things they believe.

Do you even know a few miracles that happened at Orthodox Church? I doubt that you or lot of people do.
 
Hi @Jharek, about the miracles, the question was for someone with username inbetweener. Or actually for people who are strange to Orthodoxy (i have never been a Catholic but Mary apparitions and what the RC believe, etc are not a strange things to me)

Although it is not required to believe in Mary apparition, i feel like it’s not even right. But it’s not the only case, though.
 
Last edited:
Vanez said:
I dont know whether to say the RC overdo it, but i must admit that when i was in Lourdes, it all seemed to be all about Mary. No Jesus. I am in my opinion that Mary can’t be separated from Jesus. The Orthodox icons always depict Mary with Jesus. Never without.
Click to expand...
This statement is commonly made, but is not true. Here is an icon of Umileije that was a special devotion osf St Seraphim of Sarov.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

As to the OP near the end of the eketenia in the divine liturgy is a prayer that starts, in Slavonic like tis:
Presvjatuju, prečistuju preblahoslovennuju, slavnuju Vladyčicu našu, Bohorodicu i prisnod’ivu Mariju
Vladyčicu našu, is “our Lady”.
All Holy, All pure, All blessed, our glorious Lady, Theotokos, and ever-virgin Mary
 
Last edited:
Thanks for replying.

In my previous comment i stated what we (i and the parishioners at my church) called her. There’s nothing wrong calling her Our Lady, i just dont remember when because the chants are in Russian (or maybe also in Church Slavonic) and Dutch. I wish i speak Russian fluently and can understand Church Slavonic. I love Cyrillic
 
But, do we call Her :Blessed Mother Fatima, Our Lady of Guadaluppe etc? (Replace the Fatima and Guadaluppe or any other with a place name where Mary has appeared and recoqnized by Orthodox Church)
 
You call her “our Lady” multiple times in every Divine Liturgy.

As above, with Cyrillic letters:
Пресвятую, пречистую, преблагословенную, славную Владычицу нашу Богородицу и Приснодеву Марию

In Dutch, the translation is a little different:
Onze alheilige, ongeschonden, hooggezegende, roemrijke Koningin, Gods Moeder en altijd Maagd Maria.

“Our” is shifted the beginning as it usually is in English, Mother of God is used instead of Theotokos, as is sometimes done in English, and Queen is used rather than Lady. The use of “ongeschonden” is interesting, closer to παναμώμητον (in Aξιόν ἐστιν), пренепорочную (Достойно есть) than ἀχράντου/пречистую.
 
Last edited:
Gods Moeder, you meant Moeder Gods. Aka Theotokos.

I am thinking more about the meaning of Lady, translated in Dutch. Onze Lieve Vrouw (Our Sweetest Woman), as the Dutch Catholics say. But i think, Vrouw is not a good translation of Lady. Vrouw means woman. Maybe it is just the Dutch translation.

Ongesconden: do you find it weird? Interesting? It meas “untouched”, virgin Mary.
 
Last edited:
On the Dutch syntax, I am just cutting and pasting.
http://krisbiesbroeck.skynetblogs.b...van-de-heilige-johannes-chrysostomos-vol.html

On the word ongeschonden, it seems misplaced, at least from the Slavonic.
Prečistuju is most/all pure.

Ongeschonden seems closer to “preneporočnuju” (immaculate, unblemished). It is used to translate that word in the Dostonjo Jest… It may be closer still, I think, to “bez istlinija” (without corruption/defilement, virginal), but the Dutch has “zonder smet”
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top