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De_Maria
Guest
Does Islam teach that Allah is separate from Creation?
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r.gonzales
Guest
De Maria:
yes. correct islamic belief is that there are two things in all of existence: the Creator and the creation. they are seperate and distinct from each other. we believe that Allah is above His throne, which is above the heavens and the earths.
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De_Maria
Guest
I have heard that Islam also teaches that Allah is closer to each creature than his jugular vein?
If that is so, can two contradictory teachings be correct? Or how do you reconcile these teachings?
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r.gonzales
Guest
De Maria:
its explanation as found in tafseer ibn katheer, one of the best books of Quranic exegesis available in english, can be found here:
tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=50&tid=50083
the verse you are referring to is verse 50:16 where Allah tells us, “and certainly We have created man, and We know what his soul whispers to him while We are closer to him than the jugular vein.”
its explanation as found in tafseer ibn katheer, one of the best books of Quranic exegesis available in english, can be found here:
tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=50&tid=50083
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jcaz
Guest
Good question and good answer akhi gonzales
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De_Maria
Guest
Could you summarize it for me in your own words. Because as I read it, it says that the words “We are nearer to him than his jugular vein” mean that “His angels are nearer to man than his jugular vein.”
That would seem to violate another Islamic doctrine. One must not unite anyone to Allah. Yet the Quran in using the Word “We” is uniting angels to Allah.
Here is the problem as I see it.
If Allah is separate from creation, then Allah is not greater than everything which exists because Allah plus creation add up to a bigger entity, existence.
However, if Allah is nearer to one than his jugular vein then he invades creation and violates the Islamic doctrine that Allah is separate from creation.
If on the other hand, those Muslims that teach that Allah’s knowledge invades creation but His presence doesn’t, they violate both the doctrine that Allah is separate from creation and the doctrine that Allah is a simple unity that can not be divided into His attributes. If they say that His knowldege exceeds His actual presence then Allah is divided.
But on the other hand, I have also heard that Muslims teach that Allah is omnipresent and this violates the first teaching I mentioned in a different manner than the teaching about his nearness to our jugular vein. Because then Allah is not just in living creatures giving them life, but is also in inanimate objects.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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Shenango
Guest
De Maria:
The Qur’anic “We” cited in that verse does not refer to God’s angels. It is God Himself. The reason it is plural is that it’s a common convention of Semitic languages called the “plural of authority”, or sometimes the “majestic plural”. Hebrew uses it as well, and you can even find it in the Book of Genesis. It’s like God saying “I and my power”. It emphasizes His greatness.
Hey De Maria,
The Qur’anic “We” cited in that verse does not refer to God’s angels. It is God Himself. The reason it is plural is that it’s a common convention of Semitic languages called the “plural of authority”, or sometimes the “majestic plural”. Hebrew uses it as well, and you can even find it in the Book of Genesis. It’s like God saying “I and my power”. It emphasizes His greatness.
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De_Maria
Guest
That isn’t what that website provided by Gonzales said. Please go back and read it.
However your explanation seems to violate the indivisibility of Allah as well. As though Allah’s power is separate from Allah.
Also, the Royal Plural is a plural, that violates Allah’s singularity.
And I have heard that Islam calls Arabic the perfect language. But if Arabic can not convey God’s power without referring to a falsehood, making it appear that God is more than one, how perfect can it be?
And if Allah is referring to Himself as a plural that is confusing and that violates the teaching that Allah is not the author of confusion.
And I have heard that Islam considers itself a very simple religion with no impediments to understanding. This would seem to be a difficulty. Therefore, this doctrine of the simplicity of Islam is also false.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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Shenango
Guest
De Maria:
Thank you for referring me to Ibn Kathir’s exegesis. What he says actually does puzzle me, since it is not the standard accepted interpretation. Perhaps Ibn Kathir is wrong on this one. I will certainly take it up with fellow Muslims, and if you’d like, I could get back to you on it.
In regards to issues you raised before, God in Islam is both immanent and transcendent at the same time. Or, one could say He has attributes of both. But He is not wholly one or the other, that is, one one side of the fence or the other, but on both sides. But the point is that God doesn’t enter into the material/corruptible world that we see, even though He’s immanent in our world.
These kinds of discussions get into finer points of theology (all theology, not just Islam), and the ideas behind them can be pretty tough to put imagine, much less put into words. So just be reminded of that.
Greetings De Maria,
Thank you for referring me to Ibn Kathir’s exegesis. What he says actually does puzzle me, since it is not the standard accepted interpretation. Perhaps Ibn Kathir is wrong on this one. I will certainly take it up with fellow Muslims, and if you’d like, I could get back to you on it.
It doesn’t violate it at all. I drew an analogy to the phrase “I and my power” because that expresses the meaning of the majestic plural best. But actually, it is only talking about God Himself. It simply emphasizes his greatness. Ask the Jews about this usage in the Torah, and they will say exactly the same.
Usage in English is different than the Hebrew/Arabic convention. In Semitic languages it does not denote an actual plural. The rest of your post just sounds like wishful polemic.
In regards to issues you raised before, God in Islam is both immanent and transcendent at the same time. Or, one could say He has attributes of both. But He is not wholly one or the other, that is, one one side of the fence or the other, but on both sides. But the point is that God doesn’t enter into the material/corruptible world that we see, even though He’s immanent in our world.
These kinds of discussions get into finer points of theology (all theology, not just Islam), and the ideas behind them can be pretty tough to put imagine, much less put into words. So just be reminded of that.
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hawk
Guest
I would like to add that insisting Allah is outside of creation, negates the possibility of Allah being omni-present.
This represents a huge problem, and there it has been noted that many of the 99 attributes of Allah are contradictory.
I do not know all the problems myself, and I dont have access to resources.
I will say that this is something that was also brought to my attention before my conversion, and i recognised the problem at that time.
If a muslim is aware of a refutation to this problem I would like to hear it.
I failed at the time to find an adequate explanation, and found that islams understanding of tawheed is flawed, istead.
This represents a huge problem, and there it has been noted that many of the 99 attributes of Allah are contradictory.
I do not know all the problems myself, and I dont have access to resources.
I will say that this is something that was also brought to my attention before my conversion, and i recognised the problem at that time.
If a muslim is aware of a refutation to this problem I would like to hear it.
I failed at the time to find an adequate explanation, and found that islams understanding of tawheed is flawed, istead.
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r.gonzales
Guest
De Maria:
it is a fact that Allah uses His creation to fulfill some of His commands, such as the angel gabriel delivering the revelation to Allah’s prophets and messengers.
my brother shenango mentioned that:
Shenango:
Allah says, “when the two receivers receive from the right and from the left, [each of them] a keeper. he does not utter a statement except that in front of him is a prepared watcher.” (50:17-18)
these verses refer to the recording angels that are upon the shoulders of every human being writing down that person’s deeds and actions. Allah already knows everything, so stating that Allah is closer than one’s jugular vein in knowledge is not necessary. however, these verses that i just mentioned aid ibn katheer’s explanation in that when Allah says “We” in the verse in question, that He is referring to the fact that the recording angels are there by each person’s neck (one on the right and one on the left) ready to record whatever that person does.
De Maria:
“existence” is not an entity in and of itself, it’s a state of being, a condition or situation. either you exist or you don’t. Allah exists, as does His creation - and His creation is made up of a number of entities that He created. thus “existence” in and of itself cannot be greater than Allah. as for the whole of creation, then Allah is greater than all of it.
the islamic belief that Allah is separate and distinct from His creation means that He is not part of that creation. He does not dwell inside created things, such as some others believe - i.e., that Allah exists in a tree, or in a human being, or any other created thing. this is what is meant when ibn katheer mentions “incarnation and indwelling”, which in the arabic text of ibn katheer appears as “hulool and ittihaad”.
as for omnipresence, Allah is above His creation, watching over everything that we do. He is all aware of everything that goes on in His creation. this is what omnipresence means in islam. it does not necessitate that Allah is standing right beside you at all times, being everywhere and in everything (which is a belief that many of the sufi muslims hold).
first of all, what islamic doctrine states is that nothing be given a share in Allah’s oneness (tawheed), not in His lordship, not in His perfect names and attributes and especially not in His worship. attributing the “We” in this verse to the angels does not violate any of these three things, especially with respect to the last of the three - which is the reason why all of the prophets and messengers were sent to mankind in the first place (i.e., to call the people to worship Allah alone).
it is a fact that Allah uses His creation to fulfill some of His commands, such as the angel gabriel delivering the revelation to Allah’s prophets and messengers.
my brother shenango mentioned that:
however, ibn katheer’s explanation is one that does not necessarily contradict the explanation that my brother shenango alluded to (i.e., the standard explanation), which is that Allah is closer to us in His knowledge than our jugular veins. and if you look at the verses that directly follows the one in question, you’ll see why.
Allah says, “when the two receivers receive from the right and from the left, [each of them] a keeper. he does not utter a statement except that in front of him is a prepared watcher.” (50:17-18)
these verses refer to the recording angels that are upon the shoulders of every human being writing down that person’s deeds and actions. Allah already knows everything, so stating that Allah is closer than one’s jugular vein in knowledge is not necessary. however, these verses that i just mentioned aid ibn katheer’s explanation in that when Allah says “We” in the verse in question, that He is referring to the fact that the recording angels are there by each person’s neck (one on the right and one on the left) ready to record whatever that person does.
De Maria:
this sounds a bit like the philisophical mumbo jumbo that the sufis are always rambling on about.
“existence” is not an entity in and of itself, it’s a state of being, a condition or situation. either you exist or you don’t. Allah exists, as does His creation - and His creation is made up of a number of entities that He created. thus “existence” in and of itself cannot be greater than Allah. as for the whole of creation, then Allah is greater than all of it.
the islamic belief that Allah is separate and distinct from His creation means that He is not part of that creation. He does not dwell inside created things, such as some others believe - i.e., that Allah exists in a tree, or in a human being, or any other created thing. this is what is meant when ibn katheer mentions “incarnation and indwelling”, which in the arabic text of ibn katheer appears as “hulool and ittihaad”.
as for omnipresence, Allah is above His creation, watching over everything that we do. He is all aware of everything that goes on in His creation. this is what omnipresence means in islam. it does not necessitate that Allah is standing right beside you at all times, being everywhere and in everything (which is a belief that many of the sufi muslims hold).
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janG
Guest
Ok, this doesn’t make any sense to me. If God is outside of His creation and does not interract with/speak to his creatures (us), then how did God speak to Adam and Eve, Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jesus, etc? If God does not interract with us, what is the purpose of our souls? If God does not interract with us, what is the point of asking for anything in prayer? If God does not interract with us, how are we able to believe in God? As Catholics, we believe even our ability to know God is real is a result of Him working in us. Do you only believe in God because the Koran tells you to or do you believe in God because you know within yourself (in your heart/in your soul) that He is really out there? If you know it in the core of your being, how do you know it if that’s not God Himself revealing to you that He is there? If He is revealing inside of you that He is real, then you’ve just contradicted what you said about Him being outside of His creation.
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r.gonzales
Guest
firstly, who said anything about Allah not interacting or speaking with His creation? no one said anything about this, at least not i.
one of Allah’s names is al-Mudabbir which means “the manager” or “the regulator”. He manages and regulates the creation as He wills. you cannot do this without some sort of interaction, whether He actually does the managing and regulating Himself or whether He commands His angels to do it for Him (which is still interaction between Allah and His creation). Allah is also Mujeeb ad-da’waat - One who answers the supplications. this also entails interaction with His creation.
as i mentioned in my post, the angel gabriel was the angel in charge of delivering the revelation to Allah’s prophets and messengers. he would do this at Allah’s command - and that, sir, is a type of interaction.
we muslims also believe that Allah spoke directly to moses and to prophet muhammad, without an intermediary (such as gabriel) - unlike the rest of the prophets and messengers. this is direct interaction between Allah and His creation.
as for the purpose of our souls, Allah informs us of this when He tells us why He created us in the Quran. He said, “and I have not created jinnkind and mankind except to worship Me.” (51:56). worship also entails interaction between Allah and His creation, for it is only Him who will accept or reject acts of worship as well as give rewards - good or bad - for deeds done.
islamic belief is that belief in Allah is an innate characteristic of mankind that Allah created us with. we call it the fitrah, or the natural disposition. so no, we do not believe in Allah just because Allah tells us to in the Quran (which by the way is Allah’s speech according to our beliefs). we also believe in Him due to the overwhelming evidence pointing to the fact that He exists and is very, very real.
as for this supposed contradiction you speak of, for argument’s sake, let’s say that we muslims do believe, as you say, that Allah reveals inside of us that He is real. how does this necessitate a contradiction with the fact that Allah is above His creation? does revealing that He is real in our hearts and souls entail that He enters these them with His very essence, meaning He “physically” enters them? no, of course not. so, there is no contradiction there, even if we did believe that - which btw, we don’t.
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hawk
Guest
That brother, as a christian once pointed out to me is the omni-scient nature of Allah.
Islam denies Allah’s omni presence.
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De_Maria
Guest
Ok. Before we get sidetracked. The question is, does the doctrine that Allah is closer to you than your jugular vein contradict the doctrine that Allah is separate from Creation?
As I understand your answer, it doesn’t because according to you and the fellow you quoted on the website, the Quran is using the WE which allies the Angels to Allah in a manner which does not violate Allah’s oneness.
What you are saying then, is that the Allah Himself is not closer to you than your jugular vein, but His angels are closer to you than your jugular vein. Is that correct?
Is there another doctrine which says that there you have no friends between heaven and earth? I seem to have heard that before in reference to intercession of the Saints.
And that is considered a form of unity that is allowed? Or why did you mention this?
And what you mean here is to reiterate that Allah is not in creation and neither is He divided with His knowledge present and His actual presence absent, but that His angels are present and recording your actions and then passing that on to Allah. Is that correct?
About my statements below:
I respectfully disagree. They are conclusions one comes to if they follow the teachings of Islam to their logical end.
Existence, includes all which exists. If Allah exists and I assume you believe He does and creation exists and I assume you believe it does, then in the Islamic world they are two separate elements of existence.
It is impossible for Allah to be greater than all which exists if Allah is separate from existence. It is a simple mathematical calculation. If a + b = c then c >a and c > b. Therefore if Allah plus creation equal all that exists, then all that exists is greater than Allah alone and all that exists is greater than creation.
(continued)
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De_Maria
Guest
(continued)
Being aware of that which is in His creation without actually being present in His creation is another way of dividing Allah and contradicts the doctrine of simple unity.
Do you mean that not all muslims believe the same as you? Some muslims believe in Allah’s omnipresence in His creation but others don’t. I had always been told that all muslims believed the same because Islam was so simple.
As for omni presence being equated with being above His creation. That is a new definition of omni-presence. Omni-presence literally means present everywhere. Therefore, either Allah is omni-present or He is not. If He is only above His Creation then He is not omni-present.
Sincerely,
De Maria
And that means that Allah has limits and is not omni-present, which I believe is another Islamic doctrine.
Allah watching over creation contradicts the doctrine that Allah is not to be characterized as a person. He has no eyes. Therefore, this is another contradiction.
Being aware of that which is in His creation without actually being present in His creation is another way of dividing Allah and contradicts the doctrine of simple unity.
Do you mean that not all muslims believe the same as you? Some muslims believe in Allah’s omnipresence in His creation but others don’t. I had always been told that all muslims believed the same because Islam was so simple.
As for omni presence being equated with being above His creation. That is a new definition of omni-presence. Omni-presence literally means present everywhere. Therefore, either Allah is omni-present or He is not. If He is only above His Creation then He is not omni-present.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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De_Maria
Guest
Hi.
I am aware of that. But I have heard them both.
Certainly.
I have heard the Jews also make an analogy to the union of God and His angels. Therefore in Genesis they say that when God says, “We make man in our image.” God is there talking to the angels. For a Muslim to use this explanation, to me that violates the prohibition of uniting anything with Allah.
I have also heard Jews say that God is thus multiplying Himself to give expression to His majesty. It seems to me that this is a flawed view of God for both Jews and Muslims because God doesn’t need to multiply Himself nor make Himself grander than He is. God is already great beyond imagining.
Well that is what every Muslim says that doesn’t have the answer to the very logical questions. The fact is they would rather forget that these contradictions exist rather than face up to them and explain them.
Islam is supposed to be very simple. Those who have tried to convert me always emphasize this simplicity. But it turns out to be quite complicated when you consider every doctrine taken together because the doctrines contradict.
First time I’ve heard this before. What do you mean by immanent? What do you mean by transcendent? If God doesn’t enter the material/corruptible world, how can He be either? Your explanation seems to itself with every word.
But Islam is the only one that teaches its simplicity. These finer points should not exist in Islam according to that teaching.
As to the rest, I don’t know what you mean. Be reminded of what? I have no such problems with Catholic Theology. There are no contradictions in Catholic Theology at all.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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meedo
Guest
Sister , Allah is separate from His creation as an entity and not as in closeness. If i get too much near you then i am stil distinct friom you . Bieng closer than yr Jugular vein is a Metaphor of Closeness. Thats all.
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De_Maria
Guest
This violates the doctrine that nothing proceeds from Allah. If Allah’s words or thoughts or other form of communication went from Him to his creation then something proceeded from Allah.
Did He speak in words, person to person or did He send the information out of Himself into His creation in another form?
Do you see that both ideas violate one or another of Islam’s doctrines?
If He spoke as a person, He is anthropomorphised. If He sent his words in another manner then they proceeded from Him.
This seems to contradict what you said about the angels on our shoulders writing the good and bad deeds. Obviously, they are accepting the good and passing it on to Allah.
I am surprised to see you use the word “soul”. I have heard muslims adamantly deny the existence of the soul. Why do some muslims not believe in souls? Are they mentioned in the Quran. I would like to know because I still communicate with said individuals.
Can’t deny that. We call it the natural law which is written in our hearts.
Yes it does necessitate His presence within us.
First of all, you are talking about the greatest being in existence. One whom existence itself cannot contain. Then you say that He is separate from creation. If nothing can contain Him how can he be kept apart from anything.
That is why Catholic doctrine is so far superior from Islam. Yahweh is He who is. “I Am Who Am” . That signifies that God is all. He it is in Whom we live, move and have our being. He is not affected by time or space. He is in time and outside of time because He created time and time does not affect Him. Space also does not affect Him. He is whole and complete in every atom or smallest particle and He is greater than the whole of creation.
If Allah can’t be in creation then Allah is not omnipresent, nor can He be closer to you than your jugular vein.
If Allah is in your jugular vein, then He is united to you and you have violated another Islamic doctrine.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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meedo
Guest
Can u reply to my Post maria sister?
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