The Nature of God?

[tonyrey]

For the record, I find the idea that an omnipotent, omniscient God would want a personal relationship with human beings as likely that Stephen Hawking would like to have a personal relationship with cane toads. Surely God could find something better to do with his time, such as create bigger and faster cane toads.

If God could be bothered to create beings capable of defying His Will it is hardly likely He would take no further interest in them. Surely He would keep an eye on them to see if they go too far… Perhaps they might not only pollute but destroy His beautiful world altogether…

(Would that disprove His existence? I don’t think so because it would merely add to what we know about the terrifying power of evil - which points to its supernatural origin.)

The question arises to why He gave us so much power… The only way to evade that question is to deny we have free will - which I don’t think you are likely to do.

 

[Don_Hepler]

John92
You said you are interested in straighten your faith…You will not strengthen your faith by reading these post. **So ask him ** James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. Pray with all your heart, soul and mind. He will answer your questions.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Godwin’s law in action…

That approach, of course, ignores the valid evolutionary theory for why animals don’t just kill or abandon their injured or helpless herd members, unless to do so is necessary for the immediate survival of the rest of the herd. There is plenty of observable, documented evidence for this theory in action, too.

So what you are telling me is that animals are programmed to do Good?

Thats an interesting arguement for the existence of a designer, since atoms did not create the concept of good or survival.

Well done wastronian.:clapping:

 

[jewells17]

DON HELPER…the Holy Spirit does dwell within thee ! Your words do speak to my condition and do the same for all those who seek the Truth and Christ Jesus. Much peace to you. Blessings, Julia.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Your O.P. has produced a predictable result, lots of opinions emanating from nooks and crannies in the woodwork. That is because you have asked an absurd question.

No human being can responsibly answer the question, “What is the nature of a person?”
The question is too vague, and “persons” are way too variable. How can any human being claim to know the nature of an entity infinitely more intelligent and interesting than any human being?

Well, the fact that God is an entity that is infinitely more intelligent and interesting then any human being, seems to be at least something that you know about God.

 

[jkiernan56]

So I’m interested in strengthening my faith.

I think the existence of a deity is fairly well-proven by more modern restatements of the cosmological argument. If matter is the “first cause” then, by the laws of physics, everything would be at or at least infinitesimally close to a state of rest. The way the universe is currently expanding, etc, point to a point in time that the universe, with all its laws, originated. Therefore there must be an originator, who is God.

So far so good. And I have convinced many people of the existence of some sort of God using this very argument.

But then the question comes up - how do we know who God is/what he wants, if anything? We can prove the existence of God, but how do we prove that God loves us, has a special plan for human beings, desires worship, desires adherence to a certain moral code, etc. etc. etc.?

I have some rough ideas but haven’t found a real knock-em-dead argument for the Christian/Muslim concept of God.

One argument would be the mere fact that he’s a creator. If he’s a creator then he must have something like “ideas” and “plans”. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t act, though clearly he did act since the universe exists.

Another would be free-will. Since free-will exists (I know that’s opening up a whole new can of worms but most people do accept free-will so I usually don’t have to defend it), it must have come from God. God must have given us these free-wills, souls, because they couldn’t arise from material processes.

There’s also the argument that, since morality exists, and is something outside ourselves, that, too, like free-will, must come from God and can point toward his nature. But to be honest it’s hard to argue for absolute morality these days. It’s too easy to say “morality is nothing but genetic impulses that have furthered our survival as a species”. That’s one argument I can’t adequately answer atm, so if you can help there as well it’d be appreciated. Also even if you can prove the existence of absolute morality it’s hard to convince people as to what it entails in the details. Like that contraception is wrong or whatever.

Thanks! And I’m not much of a philosopher, just curious, so be patient with me and my dumb questions please FWIW I have looked in other places.

Are you familiar with the book by CS Lewis “Mere Christianity”?
It really is 3 books in one. T

The first book describes how our conscience comes from God.

The second book is about the kind of God people believe in … and what kind of God Christians actually believe in … or rather those who adhere to orthodoxy … which the major branches of Christianity do …

The third book in the back section … is about Theology and the nature of God. This is the section or part of the book I HIGHLY recommend for you. If you like that book, I would highly recommend Frank Sheed “Theology for Beginners” … this gets much more in depth about the nature of God

 

[jkiernan56]

One problem is, if the behavior of the individual-or a collection of individuals-is the standard by which morality is defined, rather than by some external objective standard, then even though the majority may not rape, kill, or steal, why would many-sometimes even en masse-ever do such things? Either evil is an illusion or the free will can and does override an objective moral standard that would otherwise resist evil. This places man in a very different position from the rest of observable creation. Evolution would be a very sloppy “god” if it were responsible for creating such inconsistency. Only the existence of a “mind”, a Creator who had a conscious purpose for allowing creation to decide for themselves whether or not to make moral determinations for themselves best explains this state of affairs.

All rational arguments for or against God aside, the God who created you communicates with or interacts with you internally and that’s where you’ll meet Him. He responds to the smallest degree of faith, often initially exercised by the smallest amount of sincerity and humility which causes us to ask Him to reveal Himself. And little by little-sometimes in dramatic ways and sometimes more mundane- He does so and over time we find that His nature just happens to correspond quite well with the God proclaimed by the Catholic faith-the God who Himself is humble of heart while infinitely powerful, most of all the God who is love.

Awesome !!!

 

[jkiernan56]

Your O.P. has produced a predictable result, lots of opinions emanating from nooks and crannies in the woodwork. That is because you have asked an absurd question.

No human being can responsibly answer the question, “What is the nature of a person?”
The question is too vague, and “persons” are way too variable. How can any human being claim to know the nature of an entity infinitely more intelligent and interesting than any human being? That would be (kind of) like expecting a lab rat to produce a report analyzing the personality of a research scientist.

All but the most mindless of Biblical scholars recognize that God appears here and there in various forms. Is the God who ordered the terminations of peaceful citizens at Jericho the same merciful God of the new testament?

Questions which cannot be answered by recourse to logic, reason, or even meager evidence are what keep religions well on the fringe of responsible philosophical thought. The answers to such questions come from dogma, which come from ideas that people made up and adopted for their emotional appeal or political efficacy. .

A better question might be, “What are the properties of God?” but that would be off topic, so I’m going to start another thread on that topic. That’s where you’ll go if you actually want to learn anything.

Hi Greylorn,

I see that you like Antonio Vilvadi … awesome composer and musician …

Regarding our limitations to understand and claim to know the nature of an “entity infinitely more intelligent and interesting than any human being”. You have got that right … In God’s perfection and infiniteness … God is a mystery … and will never be fully comprehended and known … But mystery does not mean that we cannot know anything about God … as if we are completely in the dark … mystery does not mean total ignorance … In everything a artist composes, paints, designs …there is an imprint of the artist. What an artist makes/creates is not the artist himself - but rather reflects something of the artist in some degree or another. There is an echo of the artist in all that has been created … just as a painting reflects something of the Painter. So when we look at the canvas of the universe, we CAN know some things about the Supreme Artist. It is not a complete mystery - but then you are right to say the human mind will never comprehend all of an entty that is infinitely more interesting … but that does not preclude we cannot know anything whatsoever. The echo of the universe that scientists have been able to detect that also supports the Big Bang Theory … is an echo. All of creation is an echo of God … has God’s imprint … all that is good and has not been corrupted … but then that is another subject for another day.

You talk about dogma as if it were a bad thing … toxic … radioactive … destructive … in that case you have a misunderstanding of dogma … but that too is for another day to discuss that … I do not think dogma is necessarily and inherently an evil thing … as if it takes away our ability to use think and reason … and use common sense … far from it … you make it sound as if people are just brainwashed by dogma … that is a very ignorant thing to say

 

[Don_Hepler]

Don’t worry. After a half century of disagreement, I’ve developed good resistance to offense. And really, you are probably not nearly as practiced at the art of annoying your fellow man as I.

What you’ve done is presented a cogent argument which might make a difference to someone who believed that the Bible is anything other than the words of human beings, carefully translated and filtered so as to justify some components of various religious belief systems. The only reason for believing otherwise is that other men said you should.

I find it more interesting to accept an idea of a Creator derived by referencing the only Bible certain to have been written by that Creator— the physical universe. Before that, I believed exactly as you do now, and expressed my beliefs as openly and as freely as you have. For me to take offense at another man’s honest expression of belief would be hypocritical.

For the record, I find the idea that an omnipotent, omniscient God would want a personal relationship with human beings as likely that Stephen Hawking would like to have a personal relationship with cane toads. Surely God could find something better to do with his time, such as create bigger and faster cane toads. (Heaven forbid that He’d bother to create human beings intelligent enough not to import cane toads.)

I think your just tired of all the bashing that goes on and would like to just have a personal relationship with the creator, and find out who this powerful man is and how he came to be God?

 

[Don_Hepler]

DON HELPER…the Holy Spirit does dwell within thee ! Your words do speak to my condition and do the same for all those who seek the Truth and Christ Jesus. Much peace to you. Blessings, Julia.

How is it that you know this???

 

[Karmartia]

The nature of God is love and so cannot be proved or disproved by logical argument, but must be experienced. I could never prove I love someone through logical argument. They must experience my love, and I theirs. This involves an element of trust which comes with time. It is the result of experience, intuition, and reason. If you truly wish to strengthen your faith, give yourself some time. Back off a bit from intellectualizing about God and simply experience creation. In creation you will find the creator. You will not, I promise you, be disappointed.

 

[jewells17]

Finding the nature of God… find it experientially instead of through someone else… by going to Eucharistic Adoration at least once a week and the Eucharist as often as you can. Why would you get your truth and love from anyone else? There is ONE…known as Christ Jesus…who can speak to your condition.