The Nature of God's Moral Responsibility

[PumpkinCookie]

Happy Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception!

This particular feast makes many questions arise in my mind because of the focus on the fact that the saving grace of Baptism was given to Mary from the time of her conception in anticipation of her life, her “yes” to God, and our Lord’s Passion and Resurrection. This highlights the fact that God knew the eternal destiny of Mary, that she would obey, and that by her obedience Jesus would save us all. To me it is logical to conclude that God knows each of our eternal destinies, and has always and will always know. Not only that, but in the case of Mary, God acted upon her based on her consent that she had not given “yet.” This idea, that God can act or re-act to something before we have done that something, or even “before” we exist at all makes me think of some other questions, especially concerning the eternal destiny of each of us. I think I am not alone in this.

Many times we ask questions like, “Why does God create people who end up going to hell?” or “Why does God allow sin?” or even the very basic “Why do good things happen to bad people or vice-versa?” I think these questions arise because of confusing or seemingly contradictory ideas we have about God’s moral responsibility. This confusion is probably very common, if not often brought up, because the source of the confusion seems to arise from scripture and the Church’s teaching.

Please consider these passages of scripture: Mark 14: 18-21.

Here Jesus says it would be better if Judas had never been born.

Romans 9: 20-23

Here Paul suggests that God creates some people for eternal destruction, and others for eternal glory.

Job 35-36, 38, 42

Here Elihu says that we cannot judge God, and that Job isn’t actually righteous anyway. Also, God says that he is above human judgement, and we have no ability or “right” to pronounce him as unrighteous or immoral.

Now, in light of these scriptures, I must re-pose some of these questions, and I would like to stress that I am honestly looking for a solid, true answer. I am not here to “trick” anyone or engage in fruitless debate. I want the truth.

Here goes:

It seems like God is a necessary cause of the universe. In other words, without the direct action of God, the universe would not and could not exist. Therefore, everything that has ever happened or will happen come ultimately be traced back to God’s action at the beginning of time. Therefore I wonder, how responsible is God for the mess which we’ve made of things? How responsible are we then?

For instance: let us say a particular person is going to go to hell. And, God has always known that they will spend eternity in horrible torture and separation, and on the way there cause much earthly misery and even lead others to eternal torture and separation. They have freely chosen sin and freely rejected God. God has not forced them to do anything and so they are getting their just punishment right?

But, hasn’t God acted upon them without their consent just by allowing them to exist in the first place? Ultimately (as the necessary first cause) couldn’t we even say that God created them knowing that their ultimate purpose would be eternal destruction and death? Doesn’t St. Paul seem to suggest this in Romans 9? Therefore, isn’t God partially responsible for this sad outcome?

If that is the case, why does God (in the person of Christ) then admit explicitly that it would be better if Judas had never been born? How can this be the case, unless God is admitting that Judas (all all others who choose sin and hell) would be better off if they never existed? How can God allow or create what is not the best, and why would he do what appears to be “not the best” to Judas by creating him or allowing him to be created in the first place? This can be generalized of course to all human beings whose unhappy final destination is hell.

Finally, we can respond with something to the effect of, “even though it looks like God is doing something unjust, we humans have limited knowledge and therefore no basis sit in judgement of God.” This seems to be the gist of Elihu’s and God’s argument to Job.

To this I reply, “then how can we agree with the Psalmist that God is good, just, honorable, etc?” The problem with saying that we cannot evaluate God negatively is that it necessarily implies that we also cannot evaluate God positively. If we cannot assert that God is being unjust in any case, then how can we “judge” God as good or loving or anything else?

This issue and (many more) has been troubling me for years. I believe in God and want nothing more than to know the truth, but God has allowed Satan to torture me endlessly with questions like this. When I pray, go to mass, or confession, I feel like I am constantly assaulted by thoughts like this. I get no rest, and questions like this literally keep me awake at night or wake me up. I read scripture, the saints, the catechism, the catholic encyclopedia, etc endlessly in order to find answers, but to very limited avail. It seems like when one issue closes, 3 others open. I have intense temptations to hopelessness and despair, and I desperately desire to know the true God and worship him but I feel blocked because I am so deeply confused about who God is and what he is actually like. I do trust however that God will reveal the truth when he sees fit, because God I know has delivered me from a terrible addictive sin, and I have seen God’s grace working in my life to almost a miraculous extent in the past.

Please help me! I beg you. Thank you in advance.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Here goes:

It seems like God is a necessary cause of the universe. In other words, without the direct action of God, the universe would not and could not exist. Therefore, everything that has ever happened or will happen come ultimately be traced back to God’s action at the beginning of time. Therefore I wonder, how responsible is God for the mess which we’ve made of things? How responsible are we then?

**For instance: let us say a particular person is going to go to hell. And, God has always known that they will spend eternity in horrible torture and separation, and on the way there cause much earthly misery and even lead others to eternal torture and separation. They have freely chosen sin and freely rejected God. God has not forced them to do anything and so they are getting their just punishment right?

But, hasn’t God acted upon them without their consent just by allowing them to exist in the first place?** Ultimately (as the necessary first cause) couldn’t we even say that God created them knowing that their ultimate purpose would be eternal destruction and death? Doesn’t St. Paul seem to suggest this in Romans 9? Therefore, isn’t God partially responsible for this sad outcome?

If that is the case, why does God (in the person of Christ) then admit explicitly that it would be better if Judas had never been born? How can this be the case, unless God is admitting that Judas (all all others who choose sin and hell) would be better off if they never existed? How can God allow or create what is not the best, and why would he do what appears to be “not the best” to Judas by creating him or allowing him to be created in the first place? This can be generalized of course to all human beings whose unhappy final destination is hell.

Finally, we can respond with something to the effect of, “even though it looks like God is doing something unjust, we humans have limited knowledge and therefore no basis sit in judgement of God.” This seems to be the gist of Elihu’s and God’s argument to Job.

To this I reply, “then how can we agree with the Psalmist that God is good, just, honorable, etc?” The problem with saying that we cannot evaluate God negatively is that it necessarily implies that we also cannot evaluate God positively. If we cannot assert that God is being unjust in any case, then how can we “judge” God as good or loving or anything else?

This issue and (many more) has been troubling me for years. I believe in God and want nothing more than to know the truth, but God has allowed Satan to torture me endlessly with questions like this. When I pray, go to mass, or confession, I feel like I am constantly assaulted by thoughts like this. I get no rest, and questions like this literally keep me awake at night or wake me up. I read scripture, the saints, the catechism, the catholic encyclopedia, etc endlessly in order to find answers, but to very limited avail. It seems like when one issue closes, 3 others open. I have intense temptations to hopelessness and despair, and I desperately desire to know the true God and worship him but I feel blocked because I am so deeply confused about who God is and what he is actually like. I do trust however that God will reveal the truth when he sees fit, because God I know has delivered me from a terrible addictive sin, and I have seen God’s grace working in my life to almost a miraculous extent in the past.

Please help me! I beg you. Thank you in advance.

I’ll attempt to respond to the bold.

God gave us free will as humans, because he wants us to love him since he is Love. If there is no free will, then humans can’t freely return the love God gave them. But it is clear the whole purpose of creation is for us to find ultimate happiness by participating in the love of God*. Therefore, we are created with free will. Because we have free will, we have the choice of accepting or rejecting the grace of God. Those who reject God go to hell because God’s love is so horrifying to those who have rejecting him. Those who accept God, which is purely because of God’s grace, experience the fullness of his love in eternal salvation.

You could ask why would God just have created those who he knows would’ve accepted him, and not those who reject him. The satisfactory explanation for me is that God has knowledge of all possible worlds and situations where humans are offered grace, and knows how they will respond in whatever situation and however much grace they were given. Out of all of these worlds, God chose the world we live in to be the world of reality. He has chosen who will be saved based on his “middle knowledge” (his knowledge of all possible worlds), purely out of his grace. Those who are predestined are not predestined by their own merit, but because God’s grace compels them to be saved, while those who are damned are damned because of their rejection of God’s grace. This method of grace is called Congruism, and is the system of the Jesuits.

Hope this helps.

*I think that Thomists would argue that our happiness is complete by seeing God, then our love of God will be complete. Traditionally I think Augustinians argued that our happiness is complete in loving God, and by loving God we can see him. You can probably see my leanings.

 

[dmar198]

Many times we ask questions like, “Why does God create people who end up going to hell?” or “Why does God allow sin?” or even the very basic “Why do good things happen to bad people or vice-versa?” I think these questions arise because of confusing or seemingly contradictory ideas we have about God’s moral responsibility. This confusion is probably very common, if not often brought up, because the source of the confusion seems to arise from scripture and the Church’s teaching.

Please consider these passages of scripture: Mark 14: 18-21.

Here Jesus says it would be better if Judas had never been born.

Romans 9: 20-23

Here Paul suggests that God creates some people for eternal destruction, and others for eternal glory.

Job 35-36, 38, 42

Here Elihu says that we cannot judge God, and that Job isn’t actually righteous anyway. Also, God says that he is above human judgement, and we have no ability or “right” to pronounce him as unrighteous or immoral.

Now, in light of these scriptures, I must re-pose some of these questions, and I would like to stress that I am honestly looking for a solid, true answer. I am not here to “trick” anyone or engage in fruitless debate. I want the truth.

Here goes:

It seems like God is a necessary cause of the universe. In other words, without the direct action of God, the universe would not and could not exist. Therefore, everything that has ever happened or will happen come ultimately be traced back to God’s action at the beginning of time. Therefore I wonder, how responsible is God for the mess which we’ve made of things? How responsible are we then?

For instance: let us say a particular person is going to go to hell. And, God has always known that they will spend eternity in horrible torture and separation, and on the way there cause much earthly misery and even lead others to eternal torture and separation. They have freely chosen sin and freely rejected God. God has not forced them to do anything and so they are getting their just punishment right?

But, hasn’t God acted upon them without their consent just by allowing them to exist in the first place? Ultimately (as the necessary first cause) couldn’t we even say that God created them knowing that their ultimate purpose would be eternal destruction and death? Doesn’t St. Paul seem to suggest this in Romans 9? Therefore, isn’t God partially responsible for this sad outcome?

If that is the case, why does God (in the person of Christ) then admit explicitly that it would be better if Judas had never been born? How can this be the case, unless God is admitting that Judas (all all others who choose sin and hell) would be better off if they never existed? How can God allow or create what is not the best, and why would he do what appears to be “not the best” to Judas by creating him or allowing him to be created in the first place? This can be generalized of course to all human beings whose unhappy final destination is hell.

Finally, we can respond with something to the effect of, “even though it looks like God is doing something unjust, we humans have limited knowledge and therefore no basis sit in judgement of God.” This seems to be the gist of Elihu’s and God’s argument to Job.

To this I reply, “then how can we agree with the Psalmist that God is good, just, honorable, etc?” The problem with saying that we cannot evaluate God negatively is that it necessarily implies that we also cannot evaluate God positively. If we cannot assert that God is being unjust in any case, then how can we “judge” God as good or loving or anything else?

Re: your struggle, make sure you are praying in order to understand.

Re: God’s moral responsibility for creating people who will go to hell, at the heart of your difficulty is whether it would be better for God not to have created such men than for Him to allow them to go to Hell. I think this comes out in the fact that you placed this passage of Christ, “it would be better for ‘that man’ (who betrays Christ) never to have been born” – right in the center of your question. Catholics venerate this text and make it a part of our doctrine of Hell because we learn from it the extent of the terrors of that place, and it is a source of motivation to avoid whatever leads to sin. But you would be taking it too far if you concluded that because existing in Hell is worse than not existing, therefore those who will go there are given a bad thing by being given life. On the contrary, being given life is being given the opportunity to reach a higher destiny, a destiny as far above this life than Hell is below it, and in fact farther; and therefore these men who are given life, and choice, are given a great advantage which would be lost to them if they were not allowed to exist. What Catholics ought to conclude about this passage is not that to live is a bad thing for some, because they go to Hell after life, but that the fate of Hell is worse than the fate of not living, and from that we can see the profit of living, and learn the fear of Hell. Christ gives us that saying in order to show a comparison of two states of being (or rather, one state of being and one state of never being), and He tells us that the one is worse than the other. But the blessing of life itself is not at all made a curse, not even in the case of those who go to hell. And so God is not to be judged as unfair for making men who will ruin themselves, but we should on the contrary judge Him to be honest and good for making them capable of bettering themselves, and those who do not should be reckoned as unjust, rather than God.

 

[zro_x]

Good questions, all. I pesonally think that Judas was an exception to the rule, being one of the handful of people throughout history who actully would have been better off not to have been born. This group of people is a subset of what I beleive to be another minority: Those who end up in hell. I think that for most people who end up in hell, existence in hell is better than non-existence. Judas, and perhaps a few others, were the few exceptions. I believe that these people were created in order to have a positive influence on the world in some manner. For example, God had to create Judas because he could work off his betrayal to reedeem the world. Maybe he creates another person who is an inspiration to many and brings many people into the church, but who, in a moment of weakness, takes his own life. He might create a theologian who dedicates all his time to defending ideas about God, and thus brings many more people into the church, and who never keeps up his prayer life.

On the topic of your questions, I believe they are a good thing. Don’t force them out of your mind. It is my belief (and I believe C.S. Lewis says this too) that if you leave the church because you are following what you believe is rational, it is better than staying in the church and forcing questions out of your mind. God can’t work with that. He can work with your questions.

hope that helps!

 

[PumpkinCookie]

“But you would be taking it too far if you concluded that because existing in Hell is worse than not existing, therefore those who will go there are given a bad thing by being given life. On the contrary, being given life is being given the opportunity to reach a higher destiny, a destiny as far above this life than Hell is below it, and in fact farther; and therefore these men who are given life, and choice, are given a great advantage which would be lost to them if they were not allowed to exist.”

Yes, but God knows that such people will never reach Heaven, and chooses to create them anyway. You admit that going to Hell is worse than not existing. God knows that although they have been given grace and the opportunity, some (or most) will choose sin and eternal death. Knowing this, God chooses to create the person anyway, thus resulting in an ultimate fate worse than non-existence (as Jesus himself says). Therefore, it clearly seems like God has chosen the worse of two possibilities.

“What Catholics ought to conclude about this passage is not that to live is a bad thing for some, because they go to Hell after life, but that the fate of Hell is worse than the fate of not living, and from that we can see the profit of living, and learn the fear of Hell.”

I agree, Hell is worse than non-existence. I also agree that knowing this makes life more important and meaningful. I fail to see though, why God would choose to create those he knows will end up there, forever. Why couldn’t he create only those who he knows will love him or at least repent?

“Christ gives us that saying in order to show a comparison of two states of being (or rather, one state of being and one state of never being), and He tells us that the one is worse than the other. But the blessing of life itself is not at all made a curse, not even in the case of those who go to hell.”

How is life not a curse to those whose destiny is eternal torture? Even though they have been given a chance at heaven, God knows that ultimately they are doomed. But still, he allows them to live the drama of life, to cause much harm to others and even lead others to sin, and to enter into eternal death. This seems unnecessary or even cruel when the other possibility is to simply not create such people in the first place.

“And so God is not to be judged as unfair for making men who will ruin themselves, but we should on the contrary judge Him to be honest and good for making them capable of bettering themselves, and those who do not should be reckoned as unjust, rather than God.”

It just seems unjust to me to knowingly allow someone to self destruct and experience eternal torture when it is easily possible to simply not create that someone. I’m grateful for your attempt to help me but I remain unconvinced. I do not mean to be stubborn or blind, I just don’t comprehend your explanation.

 

[PJM]

Org. from PumpkinCookie;

Excellent POST! greatly shortened

First of all “time” only exist for humanity. For Our Perfect God everything is in the PRESENT. Which explains much of your concern.

Second: Because among the BILLIONS of Created things; humanity alone has the ability to love, hate and rationalize. [Isa. 43: 7 & 21]

Man alone is Created in the very “image of God” [Gen. 1;26-27] with similar attributes of a mind, intellect, and freewill permantely attached to our Souls; and all of them like God Himself: “Spiritual Things”

John 4:23-24 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him.God is a spirit”

Because God is and must remain “Perfect” inorder to remain God. [No other option exist.] we can know that in an absolute sense God must and does obligate Himself to permit us to use these spiritual gifts as He intended.

“Why does God create people who end up going to hell?” or “Why does God allow sin?” or even the very basic “Why do good things happen to bad people or vice-versa?”

**Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Suffering is part of the humand condition. Christ suffered and therefore we too must.

For reasons of space limts I’ll give a brief answer.

God is and must be Perfect. God’s Love of man is too perfect and it is God’s desire that He be loved by man “perfectly” in return. Only love FREELY given can be "perfect love.

Thus man alone can love or hate God; and thereby man choose for themselves hell or heaven.

Here Jesus says it would be better if Judas had never been born.

A simple statement of FACT. Judas choose hell; Jesus did not cause it; but permitted it as a freewill choice of Juda

Therefore I wonder, how responsible is God for the mess which we’ve made of things?

None! God has NO responsibilty because of Divine Justice and fairness demands that all evil is a result of PERSONAL choices opposed but permitted by God.

Consider why the Universe exist at all?

Only so that all humanity MIGHT [freely choose] and does have the opportuniy to know of God; and therefore be gravely responsible to then willingly “Know God.”

For instance: let us say a particular person is going to go to hell. And, God has always known that they will spend eternity in horrible torture and separation, and on the way there cause much earthly misery and even lead others to eternal torture and separation. But, hasn’t God acted upon them without their consent just by allowing them to exist in the first place?

Very good but NO! God can only cause Good; without opportunity “good would not exist”. God permits evil; but can’t be the cause of it. [Natural disasters hold within them at least a possibility of some good steming from them]

Ultimately couldn’t we even say that God created them knowing that their ultimate purpose would be eternal destruction and death? … Therefore, isn’t God partially responsible for this sad outcome?

No and here’s why:
Isa.43 Verses 7 **and **21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

Isaiah nails it. We are Created for God’s Glory BUT we can, and some do; choose to hate God instead. So don’t blame God for freewill. Without it, perfect love is impossible.

If that is the case, why does God (in the person of Christ) then admit explicitly that it would be better if Judas had never been born?

Because Christ took the opportunity to tell, and ADVISE us that actions do have consequences. heaven; HELL and Purgatory ALL exist because of God’s Love and Mercy; which MUST to be “perfect” so must be the result of our life choices.

The ONE INFALLIBLE rule for right understanding of the bible is:
NEVER-EVER; CAN. NAY OR DOES ONE TEACHING MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE OR CONTRADICT ANTOTHER TEACHING:

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.

**Rom. 2:6 “**Who will render to every man according to his works.”

**Rev. 20:12 **“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Finally, we can respond with something to the effect of, “even though it looks like God is doing something unjust, we humans have limited knowledge and therefore no basis sit in judgement of God.” This seems to be the gist of Elihu’s and God’s argument to Job.

To this I reply, “then how can we agree with the Psalmist that God is good, just, honorable, etc?” The problem with saying that we cannot evaluate God negatively is that it necessarily implies that we also cannot evaluate God positively. If we cannot assert that God is being unjust in any case, then how can we “judge” God as good or loving or anything else?

So from your perspective If God choose to Create humanity; ALL of them should have been made like robots; no mind, intellects, freewill at all and everyone goes to heaven;

WOW WHY DIDN’T GOD THINK OF THAT WHEN HE CREATED ADAM AND EVE AND MADE THEM PERFECT AND GAVE THEM EVERYTHING OPPS! HE ADDED A FREEWWILL…DARN: GOD “BAD”

Perfect Love dear friend demands Perfect love which demands our freewill’s. AMEN

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Hi PJM, thanks for trying to help me. I will be as concise as possible.

It seems like you think that if God didn’t create any people he knows will ultimately end in hell, then free will is impossible. Please explain in detail why this is so. I fail to understand why this possible situation would undermine free will.

My question has nothing to do with free will. I believe in and recognize free will. The problem that remains is that God knows for all eternity that some people will freely reject him and that their ultimate destiny is hell, which they have freely chosen.

What doesn’t seem just, is that God creates these people knowing that their ultimate fate is worse than never existing in the first place.

Also, my second question troubles me even more. If we aren’t allowed to make judgements about God, as Elihu and God suggest, then how can we acknowledge God as good, just, holy, etc? How can I honestly praise God if I can’t be sure that my favorable judgement of God is valid?

If God creates an evil person who he knows will cause much suffering and evil, how can we then say that he is not in some way responsible? If this is the case, then we must also acknowledge that no one is a “gift” from God, and that no credit can be given to God for the righteous deeds of the good people he created. Right?

 

[Peter_Plato]

If God creates an evil person who he knows will cause much suffering and evil, how can we then say that he is not in some way responsible? If this is the case, then we must also acknowledge that no one is a “gift” from God, and that no credit can be given to God for the righteous deeds of the good people he created. Right?

To say that God created the “evil person” is a confusing idea that lies at the centre of your difficulty. What God does create is the perfect person that we truly are, but in order to become perfect we must cooperate with God’s grace and become our “true” self that God sustains in eternity. That is why truth and integrity are so important. The reason some end up in hell is because they have abdicated the perfect self that they are in God and degenerated and distorted themselves into the evil creatures that they have made themselves into. God made all human beings potentially perfect from eternity. The choices of some to turn themselves evil is basically a choice to not be or accept their real “self,” the gift that God gives to them from eternity. They then become an “illusory” or unreal form of themselves that is the cause of their own suffering - a fracture of self from Being itself. This alienation from God is hell, but it’s self-inflicted suffering.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Dear Peter Plato,

Although I found Phaedrus, the Symposium, Euthyphro, and the Republic full of compelling ideas, I’m not ready to agree that human beings have always existed and will always exist. I simply don’t buy Plato’s epistemology and I remain confused by the ontological status of the “realm of forms.” I appreciate your attempt to help me, but what I really need is an answer that presupposes Catholic metaphysics and ontology.

Thank you.

 

[Bill_7154]

I assume it is to simply allow free will and to keep any promises he has made.

Peace,
Bill

 

[dmar198]

“these men who are given life, and choice, are given a great advantage which would be lost to them if they were not allowed to exist.”

Yes, but God knows that such people will never reach Heaven, and chooses to create them anyway. You admit that going to Hell is worse than not existing. God knows that although they have been given grace and the opportunity, some (or most) will choose sin and eternal death. Knowing this, God chooses to create the person anyway, thus resulting in an ultimate fate worse than non-existence (as Jesus himself says). Therefore, it clearly seems like God has chosen the worse of two possibilities.

God does not choose that destiny for them, but creates man with the power to choose, and man makes the choice. The Church Fathers comment on this passage thusly:

“As respects the end for which he was designed, it would have been better for him to have been born, if he had not been the betrayer; for God created him for good works; but after he had fallen into such dreadful wickedness, it would have been better for him never to have been born.”

There are three points that this Father (Theophylact) draws out of this passage: (1) God created even Judas for good, not for evil, and in that respect it was “better for him to HAVE been born”. (2) Judas chose the path that is worse than not existing, and that is why Christ said what He said. (3) Even so, God used even this for good.

One of the things this means is that God does not create robots who are destined for an evil end. God created even Judas to do good, and Judas freely chose to do evil (the same goes for all who choose Hell). If God did not allow that, He would be removing the possibility of doing good as well as the possibility of doing evil. The fact that God gives us all, including Judas, the capacity for good, is so great a blessing, that not even the enormity of Hell blots out the surpassing good God gives us by giving us life. Jesus, by saying that to live in Hell is worse than to never have lived, does not mean that this life is made a curse by choosing Hell, but He only means to compare the end chosen to the state we were in before we were given the blessing. The blessing itself, far surpasses both states. Pray on that. In it, I believe, lies the answer to your dilemma.

 

[dmar198]

The servants asked him, “Do you want us to go and pull up the tares?” – This can be referred to your question, Wouldn’t it be better if the evil did not live?
“No, he answered, Because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.” – I believe this means, that you would remove from them the possibility of doing good as well as removing the possibility of doing evil. And that would be to do them a worse turn than to let them live and grow to Harvest and eventually be thrown into the furnace.

 

[PJM]

Hi PJM, thanks for trying to help me. I will be as concise as possible.

It seems like you think that if God didn’t create any people he knows will ultimately end in hell, then free will is impossible. Please explain in detail why this is so. I fail to understand why this possible situation would undermine free will.

My question has nothing to do with free will. I believe in and recognize free will. The problem that remains is that God knows for all eternity that some people will freely reject him and that their ultimate destiny is hell, which they have freely chosen.

What doesn’t seem just, is that God creates these people knowing that their ultimate fate is worse than never existing in the first place.

Also, my second question troubles me even more. If we aren’t allowed to make judgements about God, as Elihu and God suggest, then how can we acknowledge God as good, just, holy, etc? How can I honestly praise God if I can’t be sure that my favorable judgement of God is valid?

If God creates an evil person who he knows will cause much suffering and evil, how can we then say that he is not in some way responsible? If this is the case, then we must also acknowledge that no one is a “gift” from God, and that no credit can be given to God for the righteous deeds of the good people he created. Right?

Thanks for replying.

I just don’t see how I can respond taking “Freewill” off the table? So please tolerate my not doing so.

Rather than removing the issue; lets try to gain a fuller understanding of it and why it is the critical component to your questions.

The entire universe exist only in order that man can “know of God.” The First cause or whatever name one wishes, in limited understanding, to apply; no one can logically deny that something or someone caused the universe to exist. All other explanations are simply foolish attempts at denial of this fundamental fact.

Of the BILLIONS of created things; natural and unnatural; only One Thing: Only humanity can rationalize, love and hate. Because there is only “one” it simply cannot be coincidence. WHY?

Concisely put; here is the explanation: Isa.43 Verses 7 and 21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

So man exist, only because God Willed it for GOOD. God willed our existence because “Perfect Love” seeks “erfect[ed]” love returned. In order for love to be “perfect” it MUST be freely given. That is the crux of the matter.

In order to be able to love; man must emulate God Himself; which we do [Gen.1 :26-27]

We do so by having a mind, intellect, and freewill permanently attached to our Souls. EACH of these “thing” like God Himself is a “Spiritual thing.” Try to quantify your “freewill” for example: size, weight, color and size?

God’s LOVE is perfect in that He makes it possible for us [by making it impossible for Him; by His choice] to freely choose to love or hate Him. That is Divine Justice defined. And only man is able to do so.

So God does not; cannot directly cause anyone to attain what they freely choose for eternity. Knowing before hand is ONLY knowing; not causing; and certainly not indicative of God own choice for us. This we can KNOW, because God is and can only be and cause “good” and good-things. Other wise “good things could not; would exist.”

Because of God’s Mercy and Love; tempered by the necessary Divine Justice [which alone makes good a possibility]; God makes returning “perfect” love possible. Thus God’s desire and goal is attainable by less than perfect beings, who are capable of being “perfected through grace offered and accepted.”

“Freewill” cannot and most certainly does not exist in a vacuum; but is always tied and united to our minds, intellects, and souls; as a “eternal - package”; and Divine Justice is severed; and God’s responsibility shifts entirely to man’s own life choices. God cannot be held accountable for ONLY what He makes possible for the sake of “perfect love“, which is the desire of His Divine Will. Venture nothing and gain nothing by God or man is possible.

Your second question is far easier to explain. It is totally; theologically and morally **impossible for God **“to create an evil man”; or for that matter; an “evil anything.” God can ONLY create good and the possibility for good. But in order for these “good’s” to exist in a “perfect state”; God must permit evil to exist as one’s OWN choice. Therefore ones “Judgment” if fairly, justly and morally applied can ONLY be “good.” Because that is the one possibility for God. Amen

Hope this is of help to you?

Looking forward to your reply,
God Bless,
Pat

 

[fred_conty]

Pumpkincookie, you said,
“… if we cannot assert that God is being unjust in any case…”

If we said that then we are saying God has sinned. That would be contradictory.

I know what you are saying in your post; how can God send people to hell, it seems unjust.

There are two viewpoints to this, yours and God’s.

We are finding it hard to understand from our viewpoint, and there is no argument about this.

Can we ever hope to see it from God’s viewpoint? I don’t think so. So the justice of this cannot be seen as human beings. Too many pieces in the puzzle are missing. Like the dog chasing his tail which it never catches. But God is fair and just tho it isn’t apparent to us right now.

Your concern arises from not wanting anyone to suffer eternally. Good for you. That is exactly the way our dear Lord saw it. He saw this and then died so that noone would go there. So if we experience pain at the thought of this happening, just think of what it meant to him giving up his life on the cross for that very reason and seeing people refusing his help. It is a terrible thing to know that people despite all that Jesus has done, are still going to suffer eternally. Jesus cried out on the cross it cost him so much.

This is just all the more incentive for us to pray more and deeper to Jesus thru Mary so sinners may receive the grace of conversion. It is one of the highest acts of charity and Jesus does listen.

People do change and come back. There have been so many testimonies of this right here on CAF. The Chaplet of Divine Mercy is designed for this. So maybe we all ought to say, why am I letting people go to hell since I could save them thru my prayers, tho I may never see the results. It will help your pain because you will then know you are making a real difference.

Just some thoughts.