The NECESSARY Chastisements of Antiquity: The Flood and Babel

[spauline]

**The Necessary Chastisements of Antiquity: The Flood and Babel
**
I think that the lies of the fall would be the same in any world:…

1. No regard for seeking God’s truth and to obey it with His help (anti-Baptismal disposition toward God, i.e., no faith, no repentance)
2. Living for this world rather than the world to come, that is, seeking to “fornicate” with the CreaTION in this THIS world rather than seeking to “marry” God forever in the NEXT. (anti-Marital disposition toward God)

…even as Baptism and Marriage are the basic sacraments left to heretics, who only have basic goodness and doctrine.

Further, seeing as the condition of a child who is fallen in nature is to test the parental guidance till the first discipline, so I cannot see a fallen world being able to be dissuaded from these two lies of the fall in its beginning history without similar positive Divine Discipline.

Moreover, I would think that since humanity is simplistic and slow in the beginning, they will first try to digest the first lie above, prompting, in response to this “anti-Baptismal” disposition, a chastising “Baptism” of the world, the flood, and then seek to digest the second lie, the perverse unified race of beings striving for superficial union with the material order and for their own selfish glory, prompting another positive discipline from God, one that temporarily frustrates this general tendency of a world carried away in flirtation with the Creation by dividing it up.

In light of these things, I cannot see Genesis to be an arbitrary Scripture just for our world. It is a predestined Scripture that would occur in ANY world that God might create if it fell. That is, the lies of the Fall would be the same in that world, two, as above, and the lies would be sought to be digested in two great stages, each temporarily wounded by Divine Chastisement that is appropriate.

We are approaching a time in which telling people, “believe this because the Church teaches it” is no longer effective. We need to give people profound REASONS to believe.

For this reason, we cannot simply say, “There was a Flood and Division of humanity into distinct nations because it is in Bible and the Church considers it not merely allegory.” We need to argue why it is * appropriate and foreseen * in light of the nature of the fall and its impact on early man.

 

[Katholish]

The “lies” of the Fall? What are you talking about? Your text doesn’t seem to indicate that you are denying the Fall, the Flood, or the Tower of Babel. Am I mistaken? Are you taking issue with Catholic teaching and if not, what lies are you referring to?

 

[spauline]

The “lies” of the Fall? What are you talking about? Your text doesn’t seem to indicate that you are denying the Fall, the Flood, or the Tower of Babel. Am I mistaken? Are you taking issue with Catholic teaching and if not, what lies are you referring to?

Hi, Katholish. I am absolutely NOT taking issue with the Fall, the Flood, or Babel.

I am arguing FOR them in a deep manner.

Relax, I am a totally orthodox Catholic, completely faithful to the Magisterium.

What i meant was, the DRAGON’s lies IN the Fall, not that the fall is a lie.

Whew!


does that help?

 

[spauline]

Again, for all watchers of this comment stream, the analogy I have given is based upon common sense experience of youth related to parental discipline in guidance.

Liberals tend to deny that the Flood and Confounding of Language are history in any sense because they have a related spiritual sickness: The idea that persons are really intrinsically good if you just love them and provide for them. That is, they severely downplay the threat of the fallen nature on society.

But human experience tells otherwise. The fruits of over-permissive, “loving” parents who never chastise, and rather plead with “compassion” on the misbehaving child is a society of narcissism and frivolity: If kids never experience discipline to realize that there are consequences for violation of the moral order, they will grow up morally indifferent, thinking that one can do as one wish and escape any consequences of things that are bad for them.

Similarly, where will a child get the motivation to think of the transcendent other-worldly things if they are never taught? If they are given all they need to satisfy their worldly urges and are not at least temporarily impeded from a full onslaught of fulfillment in leisure and pleasure, how will they ever consider that this world cannot fully satiate them?

For this reason, what is seen in antiquity, with infant man, is in fact corroborated by the literal individual child: discipline in the face of wrong doing, and partial frustration of over-indulgence in worldly things and leisure must exist for the child, or else, they may be lost.

Also, therefore, without similar epic chastisements, or disciplines, from above with regard to early man, salvation history never could have been started. Man would have since annihilated himself through the intrinsically necessary fruits of lack of disciplines: selfishness to the apocalyptic dimension!

 

[Rocinante]

obviously a just and loving god worth worshiping would never literally murder almost all men women children and animals in a flood because he got angry. this flood story surely has some deeper message for us than that if it was worth passing down through the ages. it must be a story about god’s love and is not meant to be taken literally as a story about god’s occasional bad moods. that would just be silly. plus, every kind of animal two by two? just based on the fact that there are over 450000 species of beetle alone it is obvious the idea is absurd on its face and a literal interpretation is false.

here’s a hint to interpreting ancient mythology: a story isn’t worthy of being passed down through the ages because it is a true story in the factual sense that it happened at a given time and place. such a story is worth knowing from generation to generation because it is true in a very different and more profound sense–not that it happened at a given time and place but that it happens all the time everywhere, and it is happening even now. that’s the sense in which a myth such as the great flood can be said to be true and it is a far more important sort of truth.

rocinante

 

[buffalo]

obviously a just and loving god worth worshiping would never literally murder almost all men women children and animals in a flood because he got angry. this flood story surely has some deeper message for us than that if it was worth passing down through the ages. it must be a story about god’s love and is not meant to be taken literally as a story about god’s occasional bad moods. that would just be silly. plus, every kind of animal two by two? just based on the fact that there are over 450000 species of beetle alone it is obvious the idea is absurd on its face and a literal interpretation is false.

here’s a hint to interpreting ancient mythology: a story isn’t worthy of being passed down through the ages because it is a true story in the factual sense that it happened at a given time and place. such a story is worth knowing from generation to generation because it is true in a very different and more profound sense–not that it happened at a given time and place but that it happens all the time everywhere, and it is happening even now. that’s the sense in which a myth such as the great flood can be said to be true and it is a far more important sort of truth.

rocinante

How do you know that?

What if the souls who perished in the flood are now in heaven?

Species? No problem. God could have just needed the types that would procreate and start multiplying and adapting. That is a lot less than your number.

 

[Rocinante]

How do you know that?

What if the souls who perished in the flood are now in heaven?

it doesn’t say that. it says that god got angry and decided to kill everyone. apparently even the plants and animals were corrupted since the people were so evil. why would you think they would go to heaven?

let’s look at what we are actually talking about here. it’s no children’s story:

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

[who are the Nephlim by the way?]

5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

9 This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress…”

so god was “grieved that he made man” and “his heart was full of pain”???

does it make any sense for god to have regrets and sorrows?

does it make any sense for god to change his mind and not kill all men but save noah and his family? god changes his omniscient mind from time to time?

and why a flood, why not just snap his fingers to wipe out all the bad people? why kill everyone? why kill all the animals too? and why choose drowning as the way to kill everything?

i think a much more plausible explanation is that the presence of flooding in the story comes from human experience and human fear rather than divine choice. this story tells us more about the ancient world and the people than about the divine will and power.

Species? No problem. God could have just needed the types that would procreate and start multiplying and adapting. That is a lot less than your number.

how long did it take for the animals in the ark to adapt to today? 5ooo years of so?

 

[buffalo]

it doesn’t say that. it says that god got angry and decided to kill everyone. apparently even the plants and animals were corrupted since the people were so evil. why would you think they would go to heaven?

let’s look at what we are actually talking about here. it’s no children’s story:

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

[who are the Nephlim by the way?]

5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

9 This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress…”

so god was “grieved that he made man” and “his heart was full of pain”???

does it make any sense for god to have regrets and sorrows?

does it make any sense for god to change his mind and not kill all men but save noah and his family? god changes his omniscient mind from time to time?

and why a flood, why not just snap his fingers to wipe out all the bad people? why kill everyone? why kill all the animals too? and why choose drowning as the way to kill everything?

i think a much more plausible explanation is that the presence of flooding in the story comes from human experience and human fear rather than divine choice. this story tells us more about the ancient world and the people than about the divine will and power.

how long did it take for the animals in the ark to adapt to today? 5ooo years of so?

Sons of God refers to descendants of Seth.

Daughters of Men refers to descendants of Cain.

Since God is perfect He must be perfectly just. He can be no other way.

God loves us so much that when we turn from Him He isn’t aloof about it. We are His creation, with free will. As a father how do you feel when your children turn their back on you?

New knowledge shows us just how fast adaptation can take place.

 

[Seeker2010]

What if the souls who perished in the flood are now in heaven?

Um, you realize that if there were a global flood, there would be a geological record of such an event, right? And you know there is no such record, right?

 

[buffalo]

Um, you realize that if there were a global flood, there would be a geological record of such an event, right? And you know there is no such record, right?

What records of catastrophic floods do we have in the record?

 

[spauline]

I concur with buffalo largely. There is a passage in the NT that speaks of the time when Christ descended to the dead and “preached to the spirits in prison”, who had formerly been disobedient in the Flood. This is largely held of Tradition to imply that many persons repented before they drowned in the Flood.

Secondly, I am not interested in the question of the animals and the literal nature of the story. It is obviously allegory, but rather PARTIAL allegory. It is describing a beginning age of human history in which man fell into general wickedness, and uses figurative language to say “God was grieved.” Obviously, God is eternally present to all instances of time, and so “knew” of this condition “before the world was made.” Catholicism is not a literalistic religion: it recognizes the need for interpretation, because many Scriptures are difficult and can mislead if taken wrongly or out of context.

Hence, an absolutely global flood is not necessary. For example, when the apocalypse says that the beast “had authority over EVERY nation and tongue”, it is not necessarily literal. It can simply mean, “a great stage of evil takes precedence in human history” without necessarily being absolutely global. Hence, what is important about the story of the Flood, its allegory, is to point out that the world was wicked and not in a condition to repent, seeing as no significant discipline had ever been exacted since the Fall. The Flood could have simply been localized the general area of the greatest settlement of humanity, since migration was only minor in the beginning of history.

But if humanity was not in a position to repent without chastisement, then if God did NOT chastise humanity, they would kill themselves off, for the end result of wickedness is the self extinction of man. Hence, in reality, the Flood is not an act of wrath or anger, it is a MERCIFUL chastisement, to prevent the world from UTTERLY ending, so that fuller salvation can come later.

Similarly, without an intervention in the case of a unified perverse human race bent on materialistic glory, God could not have formed a remnant people for prefigurement, ie, the Jews. For we also know that because of the incomprehensibility of the Trinity and Incarnation in the face of a general PAGAN tendency, God could never become a Man without first a PICTURE religion to prepare for Him, a prefigurement, that is, something analogous to Judaism.

But with a unified perverse ambition toward materialistic glory and dominion, man could never even be set up to receive a prefiguring revelation, nor would they ever be open to the invitation to spousal union with God. Rather, without temporary impediment, they would indefinitely pursue union with the material world rather that God.

Hence, another Divine Intervention is necessary, the division of human life into separate nations. This affords God the opportunity to introduce a spousal union with a single nation. etc.

 

[Rocinante]

I concur with buffalo largely…It is obviously allegory

these two statements are contradictory since buffalo thinks that noah’s ark is to be read as historical fact.

 

[buffalo]

these two statements are contradictory since buffalo thinks that noah’s ark is to be read as historical fact.

I am in good company - almost 1900 years of Catholics, Popes and Church Fathers. Oh and I forgot Jesus too.

Peter - For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment; 5 4 and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, together with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the godless world;

Jesus - As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man; 27 they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up to the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Isaiah - This is for me like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah should never again deluge the earth; So I have sworn not to be angry with you, or to rebuke you.

Peter again - In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 6 20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

The Covenant with Noah
56 After the unity of the human race was shattered by sin God at once sought to save humanity part by part. The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the “nations”, in other words, towards men grouped “in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations”.9
57 This state of division into many nations is at once cosmic, social and religious. It is intended to limit the pride of fallen humanity10 united only in its perverse ambition to forge its own unity as at Babel.11 But, because of sin, both polytheism and the idolatry of the nation and of its rulers constantly threaten this provisional economy with the perversion of paganism.12

71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. *Gen *9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.

Again, what records of catastrophic floods do we have in the record?

 

[Seeker2010]

What records of catastrophic floods do we have in the record?

All over the globe, there are many geological records of floods. But there is not any evidence of a single global flood, which means it never happened. First, there’s not enough water on the planet to make such a thing happen. Second, even if God temporarily created enough water it would have left evidence behind. Third, there hasn’t been enough time since the supposed flood for the earth to populate to the degree it has starting with merely 7 humans.

The story of Noah and the flood is false. It never happened. As are so many other stories in the book supposedly given to us by divine, and therefore flawless, inspiration.

You do realize that Adam and Eve didn’t exist, right?

 

[buffalo]

All over the globe, there are many geological records of floods. But there is not any evidence of a single global flood, which means it never happened. First, there’s not enough water on the planet to make such a thing happen. Second, even if God temporarily created enough water it would have left evidence behind. Third, there hasn’t been enough time since the supposed flood for the earth to populate to the degree it has starting with merely 7 humans.

The story of Noah and the flood is false. It never happened. As are so many other stories in the book supposedly given to us by divine, and therefore flawless, inspiration.

You do realize that Adam and Eve didn’t exist, right?

Adam and Eve surely did exist. We are all brothers.

Water - are you aware?:

1. If the earth was flat (no mountains or ocean trenches) water would cover the earth about 8000 feet deep.
2. More water is contained in rocks deep in the earth than in all the oceans.

So much for not enough water.

Yes there is enough time to repopulate the earth. In fact if you look at the rates of population growth they harmonize with a catastrophic event within 10,000 years. New knowledge in genetics is showing just how fast adaptation can happen.

Geologic column - not consistent across the globe.

 

[Seeker2010]

1. If the earth was flat (no mountains or ocean trenches) water would cover the earth about 8000 feet deep.

If I had wings, I could fly. But I don’t. And the earth is not now, nor has it ever been flat. There never was a global flood, Noah didn’t exist, and neither did Adam and Eve. The history of your book is flawed. The earth is about 4 billion years old.

In fact if you look at the rates of population growth they harmonize with a catastrophic event within 10,000 years. New knowledge in genetics is showing just how fast adaptation can happen.

Nonetheless, we are not all descended from 7 people less than 6,000 years ago. We do all share a common ancestor, known as Mitochondrial Eve, but she lived some 200,000 years ago, and unlike the Eve myth, was not alone on the planet at the time.

You can get more info here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

 

[buffalo]

If I had wings, I could fly. But I don’t. And the earth is not now, nor has it ever been flat. There never was a global flood, Noah didn’t exist, and neither did Adam and Eve. The history of your book is flawed. The earth is about 4 billion years old.

Nonetheless, we are not all descended from 7 people less than 6,000 years ago. We do all share a common ancestor, known as Mitochondrial Eve, but she lived some 200,000 years ago, and unlike the Eve myth, was not alone on the planet at the time.

You can get more info here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

OK - your declarations have convinced me.

 

[Rocinante]

I am in good company - almost 1900 years of Catholics, Popes and Church Fathers. Oh and I forgot Jesus too.

the thing is, we have learned a heck of a lot about the world in the past 1900 years that the catholic church fathers of the middle ages (let alone jesus) didn’t know. if they were alive today, they would certainly lose big on “are you smarter than a fifth grader?”

just imagine.

they would get the questions wrong about the efficacy of hand washing for preventing the spread of disease, the shape of the earth, the wisdom of leeching and bleeding patients to restore the balance of their humors, the difference between an epileptic seizure and demonic possession, the morality of burning witches at the stake, the number of continents, the chemical composition water, the fact that a sperm fertilizes an egg at conception, and probably every question that is not about theology.

so, no. you are obviously not in good company with regard to knowledge about the world.

rocinante

 

[spauline]

Allegory doesn’t have to mean completely unhistorical or fiction.

Someone can write an allegory that is about history but using figurative language, symbols, mythological language.

Hence, when I say that the Flood is allegory, which it is, I mean PARTIAL allegory, not full. Full allegory would be a completely fictitious story that merely illustrates a moral or spiritual lesson. PARTIAL allegory, on the other hand, is a story written in figurative language but that poetically references a general stage in history.

The first 11 chapters or so, of Genesis, fit this genre. The poetry of the creation, the tree, the garden, the serpent, the fruit, all this is figurative, as the Catechism explains. But they are allegorically recounting the beginning ages of man: God brought into being the material order from nothing. There is space and then space is filled, allegorically speaking. That is, also, in salvation history, the greater ages are predetermined according to the fall and what God must do to progressively heal man and impart His self to them. But each age, or space, must be “filled” with individual human beings to make it a reality.

The world is the Product of the Divine Wisdom, De Fide
that is, all natural laws, if even governing some sense of an evolutionary process that could have been uncountable eons, are nevertheless the product of God’s Immeasurable Wisdom. They are not arbitrary.

He made them male and female. At some point, regardless of how the life evolved into human like beings, a soul was infused into a material body or bodies, and so man was. Even if the sexuality evolves in life development over the billions of years (fine), it is intended by God from all eternity to image, on the one hand, the Trinity by way of the symbolism of the human family, and in the context of man and woman, an image of the relationship of God, the CreaTOR, to the human being, the creaTURE.

Man initially walks in friendship with God, symbolized by the garden: there is no death for the human person when sanctifying grace dwells in the soul without ever having been lost.

God reveals, accept my created order and live for my Love, and you shall live in love and happiness, but if you choose to reject the order of my creation and take it from me in selfishness, as if it can satiate you ultimately, you will “die.”

God allows the previously fallen spirits to induce the seduction, which influences man to turn from God, to lose trust in His all-encompassing benevolence.

This is all figurative in the garden, the tree, the serpent, the fruit.

The language is allegorical, but the history behind it is real.

The Creation is the result of God’s Wisdom and Love.

Man initially walks in peace with God.

Man turns from God and suffering and death result, for it is intrinsic. The flesh and the spirit are one in unison when there is perfect love of God. But once the spirit rebels against God, the flesh is an enemy, and hence, the ultimate separation of body and spirit follows. Death is the intrinsically NECESSARY consequence of the fall, not just an arbitrary punishment from God.

Similarly, the Flood is allegory, but the general history behind it is real: The fall of man accelerates into general wickedness, just as when the sun sets, it becomes eventually very dark, until the sun rises.

In this case, man cannot even be disposed to repent through conditional suggestion (turn from your ways, and I will withhold a wound to this wicked world), that is, if God were to send someone, “come back to me, and I will relent on discipline,” the world would, like the stubborn child, say, “O yeah, PROVE it!”

For this reason, God wastes no time, for He foresees this reaction. Hence, He does not come as the prophets to the Jews (Repent, and I will protect you from exile), but, rather, He simply says, “There is coming a Flood to wash away the darkness of hard hearts. You can prepare, or die.”

But note, this is not an eternal condemnation. For in all instances, the wicked ones have the opportunity to beg forgiveness as they either see that they are going to drown, or as they drown. Hence, the flood is merciful. So also, like I quoted that Scripture, we are led to believe that many repented in this case. For this reason, the wound is temporary, the Flood saved them from eternal death by means of a temporary physical death. So also, does Baptism save the soul from eternal death. And so, therefore, the Flood is an event that foreshadows a spiritual reality. This is the profundity of analogy in God’s interaction with man.

But the whole world was not wicked, for there was a remnant, just as, in most cases, there are minor luminaries in the night. God reveals the Plan to the minority, the ark is a symbol of the later Church: The Church saves from eternal death, just as the Ark spared the remnant righteous from physical death, at least, at that time.

Allegory, but history behind it, if even general.

 

[buffalo]

the thing is, we have learned a heck of a lot about the world in the past 1900 years that the catholic church fathers of the middle ages (let alone jesus) didn’t know. if they were alive today, they would certainly lose big on “are you smarter than a fifth grader?”

just imagine.

they would get the questions wrong about the efficacy of hand washing for preventing the spread of disease, the shape of the earth, the wisdom of leeching and bleeding patients to restore the balance of their humors, the difference between an epileptic seizure and demonic possession, the morality of burning witches at the stake, the number of continents, the chemical composition water, the fact that a sperm fertilizes an egg at conception, and probably every question that is not about theology.

so, no. you are obviously not in good company with regard to knowledge about the world.

rocinante

Your claim is Jesus was wrong?

What made these?

http://www.cccts.org/photos/WashWheatDMG/mediafiles/l14.jpg

or this?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)