The Necessity of Baptism

[fbl9]

Sounds like you are agreeing; Matthew 7:13-14 speaks of a group of religious people; many are on the wrong path, the few are on the right bath…what I’m saying is that from experience. most of these would have been baptized, but only a few actually and really receive the Holy Spirit. See what I’m saying? Where is that teaching of Jesus? On the contrary; justification will always precede water baptism for a true believer.

**This is the teaching of God.
**Ask yourself this; Does active verb repentance act on the active tense forgiveness or does the past tense verb baptized? You need to look at the tenses of each and in light of the biblical teaching of repentance, which is for forgiveness of sins. When put in the Greek construction the meaning of the text becomes even clearer, but as English speaking people; we must understand our own grammar to assist us in getting it correct. This is not a chronological formula is it?

It it the outward symbol of the inward faith; it cannot not save; if it did then God has changed from the OT to the NT;a new way of salvation. God does not and never will change the way people are saved.

Did or did not the Isrealites pass through water when they were saved?

 

[Seeking12]

Don’t beleive what? God
Seeeking 12"It is important because it is an act of obedience to the Lord,and not something Paul or any other saint would take lightly""…
Oh no one has do do something,it’s works,it’s works…an act of obedience to the Lord why would you do that?? it means you are doing a WORK,Obedience is a mark of a true disciple, which happens after one is justified before God, part of the sanctification process; you mixing words again and for the last time.

Please Seeeking 12 if you are going say St.Paul is a saint address him as such then.

 

[Seeking12]

Did or did not the Isrealites pass through water when they were saved?

Did not.

 

[fbl9]

Did not.

what the Isrealites didn’t go through the red seafrom the book of Exudus 15:19"…though the Isrealites marched on dry land THROUGH the midst of the sea."no matter how you may try to say otherwise the Isrealites indded did pass through water when they were saved.

 

[fbl9]

Seeking12:
i am copying your words word for word it is you who can’t seem to keep what you are saying straight,
When one repents one is doing an act(work),

 

[Seeking12]

The teachers are the Apostles … you were taught by someone, somehow … you did not reach all your conclusions on your own. If those did not teach as the Apostles … there erred in their teaching.
In what other manner does the Word of God need to be communicated? Falliably? By you?

The topic of the thread is the Necessity of Baptism. You give your view, opine that we are in “grave error” and hope to move on, well no … “grave error” implies incorrect and impure teaching … this is not true … so you bring it on yourself when I respond … “you have been ill taught”. When you spout off against the Church you do this to all Catholics.

Myself and others have tried to articulate what the Catholic Church has taught and believed and practiced for 2000 years … and these were taught by the Apostles.

Your definition of Church and ours are different … you see the Church as an obstacle … a hinderance to a personal understanding of Scripture and means to salvation. We do not.

If you condemn us in “grave error” it is the Apostles you too condemn … since what Catholics practice today is no different than what the Apostles practiced 2000 years ago.

So if you wish personal opinion to be left out … then leave it out … Non.

Have you ever practiced humility? You make yourself omniscient in knowing my thoughts about your religion, what I have learned, where I have learned; there is a certain amount of arrogence in all of that. There seems to be a few angry people here; it is very sad coming from those claiming to represent the Apostles, the Church and Christ.

 

[Seeking12]

what the Isrealites didn’t go through the red seafrom the book of Exudus 15:19"…though the Isrealites marched on dry land THROUGH the midst of the sea."no matter how you may try to say otherwise the Isrealites indded did pass through water when they were saved.

You are claiming that all the people that crossed the red sea are in heaven; very unlikely.

 

[fbl9]

You are claiming that all the people that crossed the red sea are in heaven; very unlikely.

that’s your own assumption,not mine. not a single soul(except for two?) ever made it into heaven before Christ’s resurection.

 

[Seeking12]

Hello, we have. John 3:5. Please take the time to actually read everyones post to you. This has been given to you. Here is just one that we can “show” you.

**Okay everyone pay attention to these versus and then reconcile them to your understanding of baptism; I wish you all the best because this is getting way to personal for me.

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8 “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?”

Acts 11:16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Any question as to the fact that there is a water baptism and the true baptism of the Holy spirit? Any doubts left as to which happens first? If so; then take them up with God because He wrote it.**

 

[Seeking12]

that’s your own assumption,not mine. not a single soul(except for two?) ever made it into heaven before Christ’s resurection.

**Nice meeting you and happy life. **

 

[fbl9]

**Okay everyone pay attention to these versus and then reconcile them to your understanding of baptism; I wish you all the best because this is getting way to personal for me.

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8 “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?”

Acts 11:16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Any question as to the fact that there is a water baptism and the true baptism of the Holy spirit? Any doubts left as to which happens first? If so; then take them up with God because He wrote it.**

It seems you have forgot it was St.John the Baptist who was baptising with water only bc the New Covenant wasn’t effected yet…

 

[mercygate]

Okay everyone pay attention to these versus and then reconcile them to your understanding of baptism; I wish you all the best because this is getting way to personal for me.

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

**Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. **

**Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." **

**Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?” **

**Acts 11:16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ **

Any question as to the fact that there is a water baptism and the true baptism of the Holy spirit? Any doubts left as to which happens first? If so; then take them up with God because He wrote it.

Other churches, not just Catholics, do not separate the baptism of the Holy Spirit from water baptism. “Water AND spirit” – remember? When does the spirit descend upon Jesus in the form of a dove? After his baptism with water.

I assure you my earnest Christian brother, although baptized as an infant when I could not make a personal profession of faith, my entire life has been an appropriation of the grace bestowed upon me on that day – a lifelong baptism of the Spirit, a lifelong growth in faith in my Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Seeking12]

Other churches, not just Catholics, do not separate the baptism of the Holy Spirit from water baptism. “Water AND spirit” – remember? When does the spirit descend upon Jesus in the form of a dove? After his baptism with water.

I assure you my earnest Christian brother, although baptized as an infant when I could not make a personal profession of faith, my entire life has been an appropriation of the grace bestowed upon me on that day – a lifelong baptism of the Spirit, a lifelong growth in faith in my Savior, Jesus Christ.

You can ignore the plain teaching of the passages, that is a personal choice; it is God’s word you are ignoring, not mine.

 

[fbl9]

You can ignore the plain teaching of the passages, that is a personal choice; it is God’s word you are ignoring, not mine.

no one is ingoring God’s word just YOUR teaching of it.

God bless and i hope and pray you will be enlightened to KNOW the truth.

 

[broski234]

**Okay everyone pay attention to these versus and then reconcile them to your understanding of baptism; I wish you all the best because this is getting way to personal for me.

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8 “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?”

Acts 11:16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Any question as to the fact that there is a water baptism and the true baptism of the Holy spirit? Any doubts left as to which happens first? If so; then take them up with God because He wrote it.**

Let’s take a look at your passages that you believe disprove the necessity or validity of a water baptism:

Matt 3:11—I agree with this passage 100%. I just don’t agree with your fallible, interpretation of it and what you are trying to make it say. Unfortunately for you, this is talking about the sprinkling of the water. John the Baptist prophesied that Jesus will baptize (baptisei) with the Holy Spirit and fire. In this case, “baptisei” refers to a pouring out over the head. This is confirmed by Matt 3:16 where the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus’ head like a dove and Acts 2:3-4 where the Holy Spirit descended upon Mary and the apostles’ heads in the form of tongues of fire. Same with Mark 1:8 and Luke 3:16!

Acts 1:5— Again, I agree with this passage 100%! I believe someone already answered this one. The new covenant had not taken place with John’s baptism. John’s baptism was before the new covenant went into effect.

Acts 10:47—I agree with this passage 100%! I just don’t agree with your fallible, man-made interpretation of it and what you are trying to make the verse say. This passage plainly links water to baptism, not the other way around. In fact, the bible always links water with baptism. Peter says, “Can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people…?” Hmm, doesn’t sound like what you are trying to make it say to fit your theology! If belief is all we need to be saved, then why isn’t everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Catholics don’t pit one against the other like you are trying to do. We take a both\and position. Both happens!

 

[NotWorthy]

**Sounds like you are agreeing; Matthew 7:13-14 speaks of a group of religious people; many are on the wrong path, the few are on the right bath…what I’m saying is that from experience. most of these would have been baptized, but only a few actually and really receive the Holy Spirit. **No, I’m saying its irrelevant. When Catholic refer to Baptism, they are talking of the Sacrament of Baptism. The Baptism you are hinting at in Matthew 7 can only be the Baptism of John, which was not Sacramental.

See what I’m saying? Where is that teaching of Jesus? **On the contrary; justification will always precede water baptism for a true believer.**Hmmmm… Read Acts 2:38 one more time. Read Ezekiel 36 one more time.

**This is the teaching of God.
******In regards to your declaration that “never losing the Holy Spirit” is a teaching of God,

Seeking, you know that Catholics don’t teach this. And you would save everyone a lot of meaningless discussion if you would bring this up in the first place. For this is the crux of the matter. If we address that, we may be able to resolve the baptism issue.

Ask yourself this; Does active verb repentance act on the active tense forgiveness or does the past tense verb baptized? You need to look at the tenses of each and in light of the biblical teaching of repentance, which is for forgiveness of sins. When put in the Greek construction the meaning of the text becomes even clearer, but as English speaking people; we must understand our own grammar to assist us in getting it correct. This is not a chronological formula is it?

It certainly sounds like it, to me. Repentance is not simply for “the forgiveness of sins”. For if we don’t continue in our Repentance (Metanoia), we fall back into Sin. True Repentance is becoming more Christ-like, not simply the forgiveness of sins.

It it the outward symbol of the inward faith; it cannot not save; if it did then God has changed from the OT to the NT;a new way of salvation. God does not and never will change the way people are saved.

God doesn’t change. No one is claiming that. What has changed is man. When mankind was a child, God treated us like a child. When mankind grew more mature, God treated us more maturely.

 

[Seeking12]

No, I’m saying its irrelevant. When Catholic refer to Baptism, they are talking of the Sacrament of Baptism. The Baptism you are hinting at in Matthew 7 can only be the Baptism of John, which was not Sacramental.There is no baptism in Matthew 7; what **I’m saying is that Matthew 7:13-14 , the Lord is speaking about a group of religious people, you and I included. I presume, that most would be baptized; therefore since only a FEW actually receive the Holy Spirit and are truly saved, then it is safe to surmise that water baptism cannot save you on a practical level.

Another way to say it; since we know a majority of people that profess Jesus are baptized, but only a few of that majority are saved, then we can easily conclude that water baptism does not save.**

Hmmmm… Read Acts 2:38 one more time. Read Ezekiel 36 one more time. Why? I already know what the Bible and those passages say.

In regards to your declaration that “never losing the Holy Spirit” is a teaching of God,

Seeking, you know that Catholics don’t teach this. And you would save everyone a lot of meaningless discussion if you would bring this up in the first place. For this is the crux of the matter. If we address that, we may be able to resolve the baptism issue.
** I really don’t follow you here; I don’t think the baptism issue will be resolved in a forum; it is resolved for me anyway.**
It certainly sounds like it, to me. Repentance is not simply for “the forgiveness of sins”. For if we don’t continue in our Repentance (Metanoia), we fall back into Sin. True Repentance is becoming more Christ-like, not simply the forgiveness of sins.
God doesn’t change. No one is claiming that. What has changed is man. When mankind was a child, God treated us like a child. When mankind grew more mature, God treated us more maturely. So God treats us more maturely; interesting theology; something tells me that is not part of the Catholic teaching and certainly not a biblical teaching. If God doesn’t change, then how can He change the way He saves?

 

[Seeking12]

Let’s take a look at your passages that you believe disprove the necessity or validity of a water baptism:

Matt 3:11—I agree with this passage 100%. I just don’t agree with your fallible, interpretation of it and what you are trying to make it say. Unfortunately for you, this is talking about the sprinkling of the water. John the Baptist prophesied that Jesus will baptize (baptisei) with the Holy Spirit and fire. In this case, “baptisei” refers to a pouring out over the head. This is confirmed by Matt 3:16 where the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus’ head like a dove and Acts 2:3-4 where the Holy Spirit descended upon Mary and the apostles’ heads in the form of tongues of fire. Same with Mark 1:8 and Luke 3:16!

Acts 1:5— Again, I agree with this passage 100%! I believe someone already answered this one. The new covenant had not taken place with John’s baptism. John’s baptism was before the new covenant went into effect.

Acts 10:47—I agree with this passage 100%! I just don’t agree with your fallible, man-made interpretation of it and what you are trying to make the verse say. This passage plainly links water to baptism, not the other way around. In fact, the bible always links water with baptism. Peter says, “Can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people…?” **After they have been justified, which the point…thank you! **Hmm, doesn’t sound like what you are trying to make it say to fit your theology! My theology can be reconciled to Scripture because it comes from Scripture, but your theology comes from??? If belief is all we need to be saved, then why isn’t everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus? Learning and believing are totally different. Ever heard of the many and the few?
The better question is; why do so many that have been water baptized, never received the Holy Spirit?

Catholics don’t pit one against the other like you are trying to do. Now you are omniscient; there is another Catholic around here that is the same way; knowing the very thought, actions and intent of others before they even know it. We take a both\and position. Both happens!

Great; so now Scripture is being rewritten based on some odd interpretation.

That was pretty informative; now can anyone refute these passages? You can’t because it does not teach both/and; but the Scripture is true as it speaks of man and God.

I baptize you with water but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit…pretty hard to distinguish isn’t it?

 

[NotWorthy]

Seeker12:

what I’m saying is that Matthew 7:13-14 , the Lord is speaking about a group of religious people, you and I included. I presume, that most would be baptized; therefore since only a FEW actually receive the Holy Spirit and are truly saved, then it is safe to surmise that water baptism cannot save you on a practical level.

*Water Baptism is necessary for our Salvation. It ALONE does not bring us to salvation and keep us there. Don’t forget. One can lose their Salvation, and be cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire.

Another way to say it; since we know a majority of people that profess Jesus are baptized, but only a few of that majority are saved, then we can easily conclude that water baptism does not save.

If Salvation one a one-time event, then that would be so. But its a process.

Why? I already know what the Bible and those passages say.

Evidently you don’t know what they say, for they say Repent and be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit. The reception of the Holy Spirit is conditional upon the repentance and the Baptism.

*hmmm, then why did you come here. To learn? Evidently not.

So God treats us more maturely; interesting theology; something tells me that is not part of the Catholic teaching and certainly not a biblical teaching. If God doesn’t change, then how can He change the way He saves?

**Why were there seven covenants? Why is the Mosaic Covenant no longer binding on you and I?

BTW, the quote function is a wonderful device.
**

 

[broski234]

Great; so now Scripture is being rewritten based on some odd interpretation.

That was pretty informative; now can anyone refute these passages? You can’t because it does not teach both/and; but the Scripture is true as it speaks of man and God.

I baptize you with water but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit…pretty hard to distinguish isn’t it?

You still aren’t getting it! One more time…This was before the new covenant was in effect. This passage is not saying that water is of no importance. It’s saying both are of importance. Now they will be getting baptized by the water and the spirit. John was prophesying about the new covenant baptism. This is in perfect accordance with scripture my friend. You tend to build straw man arguments that really are irrelevant. The both\and position I am talking about is the Catholic position which is in perfect concordance with the bible. Continued…