The Necessity of Baptism

[SHW]

Original post by SHW: 1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (Acts 2:38)

This is describing baptism.

Original post by Seeking12: This is not describing water baptism, this is the washing of regeneration, cleansing by the blood from all unrighteousness; not baptism of water. Every time you read the phrase “washing of”, think of Jesus blood being poured out that cleanses us.

Jesus said that we are made His disciples by Baptism.

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

So, if we are not baptized, then we are not really His disciples.

If we are not His disciples according to Jesus unless we are baptized, then are we saved if we are not baptized?

(This is not concerning other types of baptism such as baptism of desire or baptism of blood/martyrdom.)

SHW

 

[franciscanhobbi]

This is describing baptism.

Jesus said that we are made His disciples by Baptism.

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

So, if we are not baptized, then we are not really His disciples.

If we are not His disciples according to Jesus unless we are baptized, then are we saved if we are not baptized?

(This is not concerning other types of baptism such as baptism of desire or baptism of blood/martyrdom.)

SHW

Then how did the good thief get into heaven without baptism?

 

[Seeking12]

This is describing baptism.

Jesus said that we are made His disciples by Baptism.

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

So, if we are not baptized, then we are not really His disciples.

If we are not His disciples according to Jesus unless we are baptized, then are we saved if we are not baptized?

(This is not concerning other types of baptism such as baptism of desire or baptism of blood/martyrdom.)

SHW

Just bookmarking…will post later.

 

[GJx86]

Then how did the good thief get into heaven without baptism?

The OP wants to discuss normative necessity, not strict necessity:

(This is not concerning other types of baptism such as baptism of desire or baptism of blood/martyrdom.)

Edit: The good thief would fall into that bucket instead. Sorry about the somewhat snippy original response – every baptism thread I’ve read for the past week has mentioned the thief, as though his mere existence disproves the necessity and regenerative properties of Baptism. I have half a mind to produce a Bible translation with his story conspicuously missing–if it’s good enough for Luther…

 

[jlhargus]

Then how did the good thief get into heaven without baptism?

JL: Water baptism is a necessity, but not an absolute necessity, without exceptions. Natural birth is a necessity, but not an absolute necessity, without exceptions. In exceptional cases the physician intervenes, birthing by cesarean. The Great Physician, in exceptional cases, can intervene in our spiritual birth. The Holy Spirit can circumcise the heart of one who wills to do the will of God, by baptism of desire or blood. When the lack, of baptism by water, is thru no fault of their own, such as the thief on the cross.

 

[Seeking12]

This is describing baptism.

Jesus said that we are made His disciples by Baptism.

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
**There are three verbs here “Go”, “make” and “baptizing”; this passage does not infer being baptized is a being or not being a disciple.
**
So, if we are not baptized, then we are not really His disciples.

If we are not His disciples according to Jesus unless we are baptized, then are we saved if we are not baptized?

(This is not concerning other types of baptism such as baptism of desire or baptism of blood/martyrdom.)

SHW

**
How does anyone become a disciple; saved or unsaved? By the hearing of the word and responding to some degree. The Word will fall upon at least four types of soils or hearts; only the good soil will produce the good fruit of righteousness and these are the “true disciples”.**

 

[Seeking12]

Catholics are not the only group that believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I have a co-worker associated with The Church of Christ; she believes the same thing. I can’t help but wonder how God is going to deal with this error. I do not mean that in an offensive manner, but it is an error. If someone were to say we can’t be saved without being baptized into Christ through the Holy Spirit; then I would agree.

 

[NotWorthy]

**
How does anyone become a disciple; saved or unsaved? By the hearing of the word and responding to some degree. The Word will fall upon at least four types of soils or hearts; only the good soil will produce the good fruit of righteousness and these are the “true disciples”.**

But how can one truly become a disciple if they don’t follow what the Master teaches. Jesus clearly tells us that Baptism is the normative means to enter into Salvation. I’m going to listen to him and let the exceptions (such as the good thief) take care of themselves.

 

[NotWorthy]

Catholics are not the only group that believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I have a co-worker associated with The Church of Christ; she believes the same thing. I can’t help but wonder how God is going to deal with this error. I do not mean that in an offensive manner, but it is an error. If someone were to say we can’t be saved without being baptized into Christ through the Holy Spirit; then I would agree.

You would be surprised then that the majority of Protestant faiths believe that Salvation is necessary.

The early Church (before She went “into Apostasy” according to many Protestant faiths) always taught that Baptism was necessary for Salvation. Could we have got it wrong as early as the 1st century?

Who was the first to teach that Baptism is not necessary?

 

[broski234]

Then how did the good thief get into heaven without baptism?

Well, the New Covenant had not yet been instituted. The Old Covenant was still in effect. The Old Covenant equivalent of baptism was circumcision…and this thief being a jew, was undoubtedly circumcised. Therefore, the fact that he wasn’t baptised (as far as we know) is irrelevant.

 

[broski234]

Catholics are not the only group that believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I have a co-worker associated with The Church of Christ; she believes the same thing. I can’t help but wonder how God is going to deal with this error. I do not mean that in an offensive manner, but it is an error. If someone were to say we can’t be saved without being baptized into Christ through the Holy Spirit; then I would agree.

Well that is why Baptism is a sacrament.

 

[WAYNE_LEYDS]

Then how did the good thief get into heaven without baptism?

did jesus not descend to the place of the dead where He preached the good news about His salvation? what then did He baptise with?is He not both the baptiser and the baptismal water?is His spirit not that Spirit that consumes you?Are His words not Powerful?He healed the sick by His words.Howmuch more can His words save you from hell if you just accept them.even at the moment of death.

 

[WAYNE_LEYDS]

i think its the case of eat the chicken and throw away the bones…every one wants a piece of jesus but some people only want Him from a distance.like his words of wisdom.but nothing that would bind them to Him.

 

[Seeking12]

But how can one truly become a disciple if they don’t follow what the Master teaches. Jesus clearly tells us that Baptism is the normative means to enter into Salvation. I’m going to listen to him and let the exceptions (such as the good thief) take care of themselves.

****Where does Jesus tell us baptism is the normative means to enter into salvation?

“so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.”

“even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law;”

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; "

I’m picking some of the more obscure versus; there are many more. It is all the work of Christ; Christ plus nothing. I can see already how the storyline is going to go here concerning baptism; but keep in mind I am taught that there is water baptism, not necessary for salvation, but rather an act of obedience to the Lord. There is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the receiving or immersing of the Holy Spirit into a true believer; that is necessary baptism. The real life proof of this is look at how many people are water baptized and never know Christ; probably more get water baptized and are damned than those that get water baptized and are true disciples.

I base that on the theme of Matthew 7:13-14, where He is speaking to religious people and the many are on the broad road, I’d say most of those were water baptized, then there are the few and most of them were water baptized, but they are the one’s that recived the baptism of the Holy Spirit.****

 

[Seeking12]

You would be surprised then that the majority of Protestant faiths believe that Salvation is necessary.

The early Church (before She went “into Apostasy” according to many Protestant faiths) always taught that Baptism was necessary for Salvation. Could we have got it wrong as early as the 1st century?

Who was the first to teach that Baptism is not necessary?

**
I would look even earlier into the OT; Gos saves people in the OT the same as He did in the NT; He does not change does He? How did He save in the OT? In some ways I can’t even believe this is an issue because God is so clear about how He saves, but that is how I see it. Obviously other people see something different.**

 

[broski234]

**
I would look even earlier into the OT; Gos saves people in the OT the same as He did in the NT; He does not change does He? How did He save in the OT? In some ways I can’t even believe this is an issue because God is so clear about how He saves, but that is how I see it. Obviously other people see something different.**

Does 1 Peter 3:21 ring a bell? Do you believe that the NT is conceiled in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT?

 

[Seeking12]

Well, the New Covenant had not yet been instituted. The Old Covenant was still in effect. The Old Covenant equivalent of baptism was circumcision…and this thief being a jew, was undoubtedly circumcised. Therefore, the fact that he wasn’t baptised (as far as we know) is irrelevant.

**Let’s say you are correct and circumcision in the OT is similar in effect as water baptism is to the NT, which it may well be.

Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”
(This is the same message; God does not change how He saves.)
Galatians 6:15 “For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.”

Romans 2:29 “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.”
Philippians 3:2-3 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; for we are the **{true} circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, **

Colossians 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
Just as we are baptized with a baptism made without hands, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.**

 

[Seeking12]

Does 1 Peter 3:21 ring a bell? Do you believe that the NT is conceiled in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT?

Thanks for that one; this is the verse I have been seeking. This verse shows that water baptism is not the real baptism that saves.

1 Peter 3:21 “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

 

[GJx86]

Thanks for that one; this is the verse I have been seeking. This verse shows that water baptism is not the real baptism that saves.

1 Peter 3:21 “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

I disagree with this interpretation. The point is not that the physical sign is ineffective because it’s a physical sign. Rather, it’s that the sign itself is effective because it’s an appeal to God for a good conscience. We seek Baptism after repentance, and it is salvific precisely because it’s an appeal for a good conscience. (To put that another way: Taking a shower doesn’t save you; Baptism does; the reason is that the latter is a directed appeal for a good conscience, while the former is not.)

In particular, I don’t see how you can reconcile this interpretation – Baptism is a physical sign that doesn’t save in the way faith does – with Paul’s theology of Baptism in Romans 6, in which it is baptism, not faith, that unites us to the death and resurrection of Our Lord.

 

[ncgolf]

I disagree with this interpretation. The point is not that the physical sign is ineffective because it’s a physical sign. Rather, it’s that the sign itself is effective because it’s an appeal to God for a good conscience. We seek Baptism after repentance, and it is salvific precisely because it’s an appeal for a good conscience. (To put that another way: Taking a shower doesn’t save you; Baptism does; the reason is that the latter is a directed appeal for a good conscience, while the former is not.)

In particular, I don’t see how you can reconcile this interpretation – Baptism is a physical sign that doesn’t save in the way faith does – with Paul’s theology of Baptism in Romans 6, in which it is baptism, not faith, that unites us to the death and resurrection of Our Lord.

Also with Colossians 2:12
“You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.”

This ties baptism with Christ’s resurrection … the divine life.