The Necessity of Baptism

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Psychotheosophy

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From a philosophical standpoint:

Why is baptism necessary to obtain Perfect Eternal Happiness?
 
Well, even if I believed in God I would not believe that is the case. Just as one example of why it makes no sense, some babies die immediately after birth with no baptism… why doom them to hell? My thought on the matter is that baptism is purely symbolic… you “wash” away your sin and start from a blank slate. It is a powerful symbol and thus used a lot, but I don’t think it would be literally required for salvation as that is simply an unrealistic and earthly requirement.
 
If you define baptism as the bringing of someone into God’s family that wasn’t a part before, then baptism becomes necessary for salvation no matter how you look at it.

That would also mean that baptism could be by water in a very real way. And it could also mean that there might be other ways as well, since it wouldn’t seem like God is limited to only act through material means (hence baptism by desire or blood/martyr).
 
liquidpele said:
Well, even if I believed in God I would not believe that is the case. Just as one example of why it makes no sense, some babies die immediately after birth with no baptism… why doom them to hell? My thought on the matter is that baptism is purely symbolic… you “wash” away your sin and start from a blank slate. It is a powerful symbol and thus used a lot, but I don’t think it would be literally required for salvation as that is simply an unrealistic and earthly requirement.
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If the blank slate can be soiled again by sin (CCC #1264),
And
One can still go to hell, even after being baptized (CCC #1264),
And
Baptism can only be given once (CCC #1272)
Then
Why is it such a powerful symbol?
Shike said:
If you define baptism as the bringing of someone into God’s family that wasn’t a part before, then baptism becomes necessary for salvation no matter how you look at it.

That would also mean that baptism could be by water in a very real way. And it could also mean that there might be other ways as well, since it wouldn’t seem like God is limited to only act through material means (hence baptism by desire or blood/martyr).
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What is the difference between,
A person who is adopted into God’s family,
And
A person who is not?
 
Psychotheosophy said:
From a philosophical standpoint:

Why is baptism necessary to obtain Perfect Eternal Happiness?
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Honestly, I’ve never understood the Christian distinction between “happiness” and “perfect happiness”. Does perfect happiness refer to the condition of possessing as much happiness as is possible, or what? To me, “happiness” is what is felt when one gets what they want; the product of preference satisfaction.
 
Shike said:
I presume the presence of God’s grace dwelling in/with the person.
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I appreciate your patience.

How is that different from the grace that leads them to baptism?
(I’m not trying to discredit the necessity of baptism.)
Oreoracle said:
Honestly, I’ve never understood the Christian distinction between “happiness” and “perfect happiness”. Does perfect happiness refer to the condition of possessing as much happiness as is possible, or what? To me, “happiness” is what is felt when one gets what they want; the product of preference satisfaction.
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I agree it can be confusing.

In one sense,
Anything less than happiness,
Is something other than happiness
Therefore,
Happiness is Perfect Happiness.

However,

Those who are not perfectly happy,
Can still have happiness.

So,

I think it is probably best to use adjectives.
Perfect Happiness (complete happiness),
And
Imperfect Happiness (incomplete happiness).
Oreoracle said:
Honestly, I’ve never understood the Christian distinction between “happiness” and “perfect happiness”. Does perfect happiness refer to the condition of possessing as much happiness as is possible, or what? To me, “happiness” is what is felt when one gets what they want; the product of preference satisfaction.
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All people naturally seek Perfect Happiness.
So I agree,
People feel perfectly happy when they get what they want (Perfect Happiness).

But

People do not feel perfectly happy when they get what they mistakenly think they want, (imperfect happiness).

Is this helpful?
 
Psychotheosophy said:
How is that different from the grace that leads them to baptism?
(I’m not trying to discredit the necessity of baptism.)
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I don’t really know. But to conjecture, I would say that the difference is that the grace that leads them to baptism isn’t in/with the person. Without as opposed to within.
 
Yes, Psychotheosophy, perfectly clear. Thank you. I asked because I’ve heard people speak as though happiness is not an emotional state.
 
Shike said:
I don’t really know. But to conjecture, I would say that the difference is that the grace that leads them to baptism isn’t in/with the person. Without as opposed to within.
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Please let me know if I’m taking these out of context…
  1. “Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened an inclined to evil, persists in man and summon him to spiritual battle” (CCC #405)
  2. Baptism “allows” people"to grow in goodness through the moral virtues" (CCC #1266)
  3. Baptism gives “sanctifying grace,” which, “is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love.” (CCC #2000)
Is seems the grace of perfection does not exist in a person before baptism.
Oreoracle said:
Yes, Psychotheosophy, perfectly clear. Thank you. I asked because I’ve heard people speak as though happiness is not an emotional state.
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A happy person
Feels a peace and joy,
Even in the midst of emotional (or physical) suffering.

Happiness is more like a sense of meaning,
Rather than an emotional state.

Happiness (God) could be considered Meaning itself.

I hope I didn’t confuse the issue.
 
Psychotheosophy said:
Is seems the grace of perfection does not exist in a person before baptism.
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I agree.
Happiness is more like a sense of meaning,
Rather than an emotional state.
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I would categorize as there being two types of happiness that are not necessarily opposed to each other: subjective and objective happiness.

subjective would be more of the emotional component while objective would be more of the ontological component. Our emotions don’t always correspond to objective reality.
 
Shike said:
Since being brought into God’s family is a gift, not even faith is required if God so chooses to give it.

For example, infants who are baptised.
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Why would God not choose to to give this gift?
 
Shike said:
I don’t know. I’m not God.

But maybe he would choose not to give such a gift if he knows it’s going to be refused.

But like I said, I do not know.
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God willed all men to be saved.
Does free will have anything to do with it?
 
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