The need for the 12 apostles for the priesthood

[ParkerD]

Hey ParkerD,

Did God only want His Church to last one generation because it seems to me that you are saying that everything ended with one group of Apostles and God had no plans for the following generations.

God’s plan of salvation began in pre-mortal life, and is being carried out in this life on this earth. It is apparent in the vision John had, that God’s plan was definitely going to be exactly as He had planned in the eventual salvation of all those desiring and choosing to be saved through their repentance and sanctification and through the grace and mercy extended through the crucifixion, sacrifice and atonement of Christ and through His intercession.

God’s plan for the gospel being brought to the earth through His Beloved Son, included in John’s vision that the church was going to “fly into the wilderness” “for a time, and times, and half a time” (Revelation 12:14)–meaning that the vision showed that God’s plan included the taking of the church “into the wilderness”. It also included the allowance for the dragon and the beast to “make war with the saints, and to overcome them…” (13:7) It also included that another angel was going to come to earth with “the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people;” (14:6)

So the answer is that God’s plan could include the taking away of the priesthood from among the people generally, and that another angel from the midst of heaven would preach the everlasting gospel to them that dwell on earth. It is logical to me that this means the purity of it had been allowed to be changed–why? Because then free will choice is a more necessary component of choosing one’s religion and choosing what one does with it.

If God’s Church is the one true Church than is not that the choice? Either to accept it or not that is the choice not what Church becasue there is thruth and there is falsehoods.

If a person is being told that the only choice they can make is thus and so, because it is the “truth” because of thus and so, then that means their relationship with God and their reliance and seeking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit is less important, and they have made the “obvious” right choice. This leads to more dependence on “tradition” and on “history” than on deeply personal guidance from God and a personal, heartfelt choice through inspired one-to-one guidance from the Holy Spirit.

So what I was describing is a greater expanse of free will choice, and a greater likelihood of filtering those who have sought a personal communication relationship with God, with the Savior, and with the Holy Spirit versus those who have made religious choices for other reasons.

I think people argued because they loved each other. Spouses who love each other fight all the time. They had so much interest in one anothers well being that they did not want to see the other misled. Also is it better to agree to avoid confrontation or to agrue to find the truth?

I don’t think arguing “finds truth”. I think it finds points of view, but without the Holy Spirit or loving, gentle meekness involved in the conversation, then neither party will find “truth.”

Also if I were to look at LDS history won’t I find conflict?

You will find many who left while in conflict with the leaders or with their own families. The leaders sought for peaceful and compassionate understanding among those with differences of perspectives–but also sought to carefully preserve the pure doctrines of the gospel.

So every single person who ever lived after the first apostles is on a roll that will eventually be baptised? EVERYONE? Wow I did not know that my salvation depends on the record keeping of another person.

I would say that it is not unreasonable that God or the angels have a “roll” that includes everyone who has ever lived, since every single person is important in the eyes of God. Record keeping of names, families, and so forth is not something that is unfamiliar to those who see this done in the Bible. “Missing names” is not something difficult to take care of by the angels who have been watching the whole history of the world and recording what needed to be recorded.

I agree that Christ suffered the crucifixion and atonement to “free us from sin” for those who repent of their sins. Also, that the gates of heaven ultimately will open for those who continued to repent of their sins after accepting Christ and His gospel, at whatever point in time they did that and then continued to grow toward sanctification.

So the gates of heaven where open and always have been, point proven God would not allow His people to be without salvation after He died for it.

No one is “without salvation after He died for it”, nor “before He died for it.” The time factor is not a factor for God in His timetable for the human family–all of us, and all throughout history.

 

[zaffiroborant]

So the answer is that God’s plan could include the taking away of the priesthood from among the people generally, and that another angel from the midst of heaven would preach the everlasting gospel to them that dwell on earth. It is logical to me that this means the purity of it had been allowed to be changed–why? Because then free will choice is a more necessary component of choosing one’s religion and choosing what one does with it.

If a person is being told that the only choice they can make is thus and so, because it is the “truth” because of thus and so, then that means their relationship with God and their reliance and seeking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit is less important, and they have made the “obvious” right choice. This leads to more dependence on “tradition” and on “history” than on deeply personal guidance from God and a personal, heartfelt choice through inspired one-to-one guidance from the Holy Spirit.

So what I was describing is a greater expanse of free will choice, and a greater likelihood of filtering those who have sought a personal communication relationship with God, with the Savior, and with the Holy Spirit versus those who have made religious choices for other reasons.

So God intentionally sowed confusion with different “Christianities” because there weren’t already enough religions to choose from?? And because He needs some sort of filter here to filter out the “good” ones for Him?

 

[ParkerD]

So God intentionally sowed confusion with different “Christianities” because there weren’t already enough religions to choose from?? And because He needs some sort of filter here to filter out the “good” ones for Him?

Zaffiroborant,

One can take the approach that “God intentionally” does anything that happens in the world, but the Bible makes it clear that God is only good, and all that He does is good, but also that He allows Satan, the dragon, to be involved on the earth–and that there is an ultimate “good purpose” that is being fulfilled by that allowance which God, who is omnipotent and omniscient and all-good, makes. (See Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 12:9)

This means that Satan could tempt, could foster contention, could take things that were purely true and purely right and “sow seeds” in the mind of someone who could take a pure truth and make it into something not so pure. Then that person could teach the changed doctrine and it would lead in a different direction than the “pure truth” was leading. That doesn’t mean such a person was deliberately “following Satan”, but when a person lives in an atmosphere of contention and of arguing points of doctrine, then whoever wins and carries the day has not the slightest guarantee that what they “won over” was the pure doctrine.

An example of a “filter process” that sifts out what is in the hearts of people, is a parable that is very familiar to you, I’m sure–the parable of the seeds that fell into different kinds of soil. The “filter process” allows every individual to choose from their own heart what they really want in their religious choices, based on their personal, ongoing relationship with God and with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

As I have noted before several times, the fact that there are different religions that follow Christ’s teachings means that people have a full scope of free will choices, which God did not “create” but He allowed to happen so that people could arrive at where they choose for themselves to arrive, both on earth and in heaven, with no force involved–just their having chosen using their own free will. Thus, people are going to arrive at the happiness, love, joy, peace, fruits of the Spirit, and so forth that they choose for themselves here and hereafter.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Zaffiroborant,

This means that Satan could tempt, could foster contention, could take things that were purely true and purely right and “sow seeds” in the mind of someone who could take a pure truth and make it into something not so pure. .

Rev 13:7
Roman Persecutions

Many can be found here.
catholiconline.com/saints/martyr.php

When I think of the Saints being overcome I think of Saint Peter upon the upside down cross.

I think of the Saints being fed to the lions. In that coliseum who was really being fed to the lions? Who do you think they were cheering for? The lions or the Saints?

Yes the world can and does overcome each and every one of us. But we have Christ crucified as well as Christ resurrected front and center in our lives. the real prize.

If you want to ponder this as a game you might want to also ponder the final score. Being beat is a loss in this world and I myself choose this defeat at each Holy Mass. Being defeated by the world brings me closer to the Cross of my Lord.

With Jesus, being overcome ads up to eternal life. Without him death.

Jesus wins

May not look like it to the world
But then again, I am not in the world without Jesus.
Parker, this is what the Holy Spirit is telling me as I read revelation. Again its all about Jesus and His cross. Where he was overcome or……

His Church will never loose as we have the forgiveness of sins. We are not Saints, we are sinners. Knowing this creates Saints.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Dear Parker
Tonight at Bible study the up coming scriptures made me think of you. Then I found this meditation and thought I need to pass it on to you. I think it covers a lot of what has been pondrede here. Take the time to read all of this. God bless
Rich

GOSPEL: John 14:15-21.
Jesus said to his disciples, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

EXPLANATION: Jesus continues his discourse to his disciples during the Last Supper.

will . . . commandments: Again he identifies himself with God the Father: God’s commandments are his also.

Father . . . Counselor: He promises them that he will get the Father to send them another Counselor when he leaves them. Here we have the Trinity as three distinct persons, yet as one God.

Spirit of truth: His office will be to teach them all things, and recall to their minds all that he has already taught them (14:26).

world cannot receive: The term “world” is used in the sense of opposition to Christ and to the truth. Such men cannot receive or know the truth or its Author, the Holy Spirit.

you know him: The Apostles are open to the truth, they and their successors, the Church of God, will have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
not . . . desolate: Jesus realizes their anguish at the thought of his leaving them. He promises that he will return to them after the resurrection, and also in his glorious life which the disciples and all his followers, but not the “world” of the unbelievers, will share with him.

I am in the Father: After the resurrection and Pentecost they will forever be convinced of Christ’s divinity. They will also understand that through his Incarnation he has made himself one with them and made them one with him—adopted sons of the Father.

keeps . . . commandments: This is the final proof of love of Christ, and the Father will repay this love for his Son. Christ himself too will repay his loyal follower, and form an intimate acquaintance with him. He will manifest himself to him.

…Continued

---

 

[catholic-rcia]

APPLICATION: In this discourse at the Last Supper, which was his last will and testament, our divine Lord promised his Church, through the Apostles, that the Holy Spirit would be with it until the end of time. The Spirit of truth will be directing it and effectively aiding it to preserve the faith, the doctrine, and the morals which Christ taught his Apostles.

Looking back now over almost 2,000 years of the Church’s history we can see how this promise has been fulfilled. There were heretics and schismatics who threatened the very continuance of the Church as God’s faithful people on earth. There were crises and near catastrophes caused by the human weaknesses of its heads and its members, yet the Church survived and spread and continued to send saints to heaven because of the direct and active aid of the Holy Spirit.
During those two thousand years great empires have risen and fallen. They had large armies and vast wealth and earthly resources at their disposal, yet they disintegrated like all things human. The names of one-time mighty men who ruled over millions are now nothing more than a nuisance for children in their history classes. The large tracts of our globe which they ruled are now divided and known by other names. This was, is, and will be the lot of all merely human enterprises. Today’s despots, where they rule with iron hand, will share the same fate.
In the midst of all these upheavals the Church of Christ has continued to flourish because it was directed and sustained by the Holy Spirit, who abides within it. How can we ever show enough gratitude to the three Divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity who planned so lovingly and so efficaciously for our safe journey to heaven? The Father sent his Son as man among us so that we men could become his brothers, and adopted sons of the Father. The Son suffered hardships, insults and misunderstanding during his temporary stay on earth, and ended like a crucified malefactor because of the sins of mankind. But he rose triumphantly from the dead and set up the Church as a society which would bring to men of all races, ages and colors the salvation and exaltation of mankind, which his life and death had won for us.

Knowing only too well the weaknesses and waywardness of human nature, he and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to remain with his Church as its infallible guide until the last man has entered heaven.

This is a very brief summary of what the Blessed Trinity has done, and is continuing to do for us, through the Church. We, the people of God, the chosen race of the New Testament are God’s Church on earth. It is for you and me that the Holy Spirit is at work this very day. When he guides the steps of Peter’s successor, the Pope, or the deliberations of the bishops, the heirs of the apostolic college, it is for us and for our salvation that he is acting. While we are faithful members of the Church, and of Christ’s mystical body, while we remain live branches safely attached to the vine who is Christ, we have nothing to fear; we are on the sure road to heaven, to enjoy eternal happiness with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit whom we shall thank and glorify forever.-a182

From: catholicmatters.com/a182.htm

 

[KathleenGee]

The apostles were given the right to appoint successors through the Holy Spirit, and in the example of Jesus Christ Who appointed Peter as the Rock after he was filled with the Holy Spirit, and was able to say to Jesus, ‘You are the Christ’. Without the Holy Spirit, Peter would not have been able to say that…especially considering the testimony of his own humanity in past actions.

It is only verifiable that the Apostles – Christ chose 12 of them as His witnesses – to be the human but consecrated foundation of His church, and only logical that imparted with such a great mission to preach the Gospel of all nations, they would have the savvy to erect churches with administrators…the epistles are testimony to this.

To say another religion after the fact is now the only ones called to have successors, with a different doctrine and different practices, self-contained vs the Church existing for the Good News and serving all poor of mankind, is indeed a different message and a different belief that does not come from the apostles’ successors.