The Netherlands Catholic Church was Autonomous?

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Well, this could apply just as much to your church’s sacraments, from someone else’s point of view.

In fact, while I would bet most Anglican’s would probably assume your church’s sacraments are valid in spite of your attitude towards them, some Orthodox would not be so willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Well, sure. But if I wanted to buy into the sacramental theology of some other church or religion, I would just go ahead and join.

More to the point – and I realize you are not Catholic – as a Catholic I will not sit by while someone says on a Catholic board that another church’s sacraments are valid when they are not. It’s simply misleading to the audience.
I think it is best not to judge. **“But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter …”**Matt 23:13 D-R
We surely don’t want to be counted among that bunch!
Uh, not quite. First, I do want to be counted among the “bunch” that listens to the teachings of the See of Peter. Second, that passage is about judging men’s souls. It is not a call to relativism: i.e., that we cannot judge any action or position as being morally or theologically incorrect. Or one might as well say, “You should go to a Scientologist church. Their religion is totally valid. At least, they say so, and who are you to judge them?” That’s what I consider faulty theological thinking.
 
Well, this could apply just as much to your church’s sacraments, from someone else’s point of view.

In fact, while I would bet most Anglican’s would probably assume your church’s sacraments are valid in spite of your attitude towards them, some Orthodox would not be so willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I think it is best not to judge. **“But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter …”**Matt 23:13 D-R

We surely don’t want to be counted among that bunch!
relativism=DO NOT WANT

funny thing about Truth (i mean the truth of Christ and His Church) is that it is not true for some or most people, it is true for EVERYONE no matter what they were taught to believe. say for example a father teaches his son all his life that the color of the sky is red, so he thinks the sky is red when in actuality it is blue, just because he was taught to believe, indeed he honestly does believe, and even teaches his son that the sky is red, does not make the sky red. The sky is, was, and alwayes will be (barring a change in the composition of our atmosphere) blue, even though this guy and his descendants think it is red
 
Confessions and marriages in the Orthodox church are presumed valid, so it may not be the case that those of this diocese are invalid. The matter is not so easily determined.
Confessions and marriages from this diocese and the Orthodox are invalid for Catholics, they are valid for their own faithful.
 
More to the point – and I realize you are not Catholic – as a Catholic I will not sit by while someone says on a Catholic board that another church’s sacraments are valid when they are not. It’s simply misleading to the audience.
I am not sure I understand your point here.

Are you saying their bishops are real bishops but the sacraments these people confect are not real sacraments? :confused:
 
I am not sure I understand your point here.

Are you saying their bishops are real bishops but the sacraments these people confect are not real sacraments? :confused:
As I explained above with a link to the canon law, being a “real” priest is not always enough by itself. For instance, the sacrament of penance requires, in addition to valid Holy Orders, the permission (“faculties”) of the proper canonical authority.

Take, for instance, a “defrocked” priest – maybe one who voluntarily left the priesthood to get married or join a cult, or maybe someone who was kicked out due to heresy and pedophilia or what have you. Because the priesthood is an indelible sacrament, he is, sacramentally, a priest forever. If he says the words of consecration over bread and wine with the proper intention, they become the Eucharist. It’s a very grave sin for him to do so in that condition, but the sacrament is valid nonetheless. Now suppose that he hears someone’s confession and gives them absolution. Valid? No, because he lacks canonical priestly faculties. It would be valid if the penitent were in danger of death, since that is a canonical exception to the requirement of faculties; there are also certain doctrines which govern the situation of a penitent who goes to a priest not knowing that he lacks faculties to hear confessions. But as a general matter if you are a laicized, defrocked priest (a) you can validly though illicitly confect the Eucharist, and (b) not validly grant absolution. As I said above, I believe that marriages fall in the latter category.

I’m by no means well schooled in the situation of the Old Catholics, but, as a sect with zero canonical standing, what I have said, as far as I know, is as true of their situation as of any other priest with valid orders and no canonical faculties. (That’s not counting the womynpriests that the Old Catholics are ordaining these days, but that’s a whole 'nother story … ;)).
 
How do these topics become so quickly derailed?

Utrecht has always been 100% Catholic and was one of the earliest bishoprics of northern Europe and had a great missionary influence when northern Europe was still pagan in the majority. It remained a great centre of Catholicism until the bishopric was abolished by the new Protestant government 1680.

Catholicism was suppressed in the Netherlands until the early decades of the 1800s. The bishopric was re-established but as elsewhere in the Netherlands they did not return the old cathedral and ecclesiastical buildings to the Catholics.

The present Metropolitan Archbishop, Willem Jacobus Eijk was appointed by our present Pope. He is known for his conservative views and revitalization of Catholicism.

Pope Adrian VI, elected in 1522, was born in Utrecht.
 
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