The new acceptance of sodomy

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No, I specifically said it was a crime on the moral level. I said that criminal penalties are different and related to the logical argumentation of the positives and negatives from choosing one penalty over another. But yes, in my utopia, where culpability is not diminished because of a society that deceives people into thinking nothing is wrong with grave depravity, all crimes that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengeance would be frowned upon. They would all perhaps (big perhaps) have criminal penalties. These could be debated if we ever reverse the sexual revolution and reach this utopian Catholic society.

To the substance of your argument:
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, in Denzinger 3634, calls it the “Crime of the sodomites.” Therefore, I am merely using the same word choice that the Holy See used in the 1800s, but I agree I should use “sin.” It is a more prudential and sensitive way to say it, and takes into account the vastly changed circumstances for evangelization that exist today compared to what existed in the past.
 
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No, I specifically said it was a crime on the moral level. I said that criminal penalties are different and related to the logical argumentation of the positives and negatives from choosing one penalty over another. But yes, in my utopia, where culpability is not diminished because of a society that deceives people into thinking nothing is wrong with grave depravity, all crimes that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengeance would be frowned upon. They would all perhaps (big perhaps) have criminal penalties. These could be debated if we ever reverse the sexual revolution and reach this utopian Catholic society.

To the substance of your argument:
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, in Denzinger 3634, calls it the “Crime of the sodomites.” Therefore, I am merely using the same word choice that the Holy See used in the 1800s, but I agree I should use “sin.” It is a more prudential and sensitive way to say it, and takes into account the vastly changed circumstances for evangelization that exist today compared to what existed in the past.
It’s not ‘grave depravity’ alph. It’s ‘what WE describe as grave depravity’. Let’s just make sure we have that right if we could.

Edit: Accepted, of course, that we are on a Catholic forum. But just needed to be qualified nevertheless.
 
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No, this is in error. It IS objectively, by nature of its very object, grave depravity. No more do we construct it to be “grave” than do we construct the laws of nature or the axioms of mathematics to be the way that they are.
 
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I’ve had various non-religious people realize that sexual morality wasn’t exactly “nonsense” when they got burned really bad by a breakup, a divorce, a bad STD, or just realizing that sex as they were having it was empty and boring.
Most (I think all) of the non-religious people I know believe in sexual morality. They may have a different idea of the scope and boundaries of that morality, but they certainly recognize that there are boundaries.
 
I meant “outraged” as in “outraged to the level that you’d be scandalized by a crime.”

Society definitely (somewhat) looks down upon moral issues like adultery, and as you said, abuse of power. However, still, society in no way considers these anywhere near the level of crimes on the moral level (like they would call child sexual abuse).
 
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No, this is grave error. It IS objectively, by nature of its very object, grave depravity. No more do we construct it to be “grave” than do we construct the laws of nature or the axioms of mathematics to be the way that they are.
Simply put: No. It isn’t.

It’s based on a particular religious viewpoint. Nothing more. Nothing less. And please let’s not have more of the ‘this body part shouldn’t be used for that specific function’.

What people do in the privacy of their own bedroom has nothing to do with you. What they get up to is of no concern to you. What they do with various body parts should not cause you to lose any sleep.

What you are effectively doing is saying: ‘Hey, I don’t know what you get up to in there but here’s a list of things that offend me and which my religion considers to be a grave moral sin’.

I don’t know how to reply really. Except to say ‘thanks for letting me know’. Just get back in touch IF you consider making it a crime. Then you might here from me again.
 
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Tis_Bearself:
I’ve had various non-religious people realize that sexual morality wasn’t exactly “nonsense” when they got burned really bad by a breakup, a divorce, a bad STD, or just realizing that sex as they were having it was empty and boring.
Most (I think all) of the non-religious people I know believe in sexual morality. They may have a different idea of the scope and boundaries of that morality, but they certainly recognize that there are boundaries.
Great point. It’s not as if all bets are off and we’re all out looking for a great time every night. But with greater freedom comes greater responsibility.

Don’t deny freedom. But emphasise responsibility.
 
It IS objectively, by nature of its very object, grave depravity.
Simply put: No. It isn’t.

It’s based on a particular religious viewpoint.
I would respectfully suggest that you guys are not arguing about whether sodomy is objectively immoral, you are arguing about either 1) whether the Catholic Church’s view on morality is objectively correct (in general), or 2) whether the Catholic Church’s view on morality necessarily comports with God’s view. (Of course 2 should generally merge with 1 for those that believe in an Abrahamic God.) If you do not agree on 1 or 2, you probably cannot agree on the sodomy issue, which is derivative of the larger point.
 
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alphonsus1:
It IS objectively, by nature of its very object, grave depravity.
Simply put: No. It isn’t.

It’s based on a particular religious viewpoint.
I would respectfully suggest that you guys are not arguing about whether sodomy is objectively immoral, you are arguing about either 1) whether the Catholic Church’s view on morality is objectively correct (in general), or 2) whether the Catholic Church’s view on morality necessarily comports with God’s view. (Of course 2 should generally merge with 1 for those that believe in an Abrahamic God.) If you do not agree on 1 or 2, you probably cannot agree on the sodomy issue, which is derivative of the larger point.
You’re missing an option. That the church considers it’s view to be objective. I agree with that. It does consider it to be objective. But do I personally consider it to be objective? No, I do not.

I consider it to be a religious viewpoint based on scripture. With which I have no problem. If you’re a Catholic, then please follow the church’s rules. Just don’t think that everyone else should. And definitely do not insist that we must.
 
You’re missing an option. That the church considers it’s view to be objective. I agree with that. It does consider it to be objective. But do I personally consider it to be objective? No, I do not.

I consider it to be a religious viewpoint based on scripture. With which I have no problem. If you’re a Catholic, then please follow the church’s rules. Just don’t think that everyone else should. And definitely do not insist that we must.
I get your point, but I don’t think that I missed an option. The Church considers its teaching on sodomy to be objectively correct (which the Church believes about almost all of its teachings), you do not. So you do not agree that the Church’s view on morality is (always) objectively correct. So you disagree on point #1. Not trying to be difficult, just trying to feel for the edges of the dispute.
 
(A) Whether something is of a “concern to me” does not determine the morality of acts. It does not “concern me” that two people cheated on each other thousands of miles away in Alaska. The two people that cheated probably even “consented to it,” but adultery is wrong nonetheless.
(B) I sure hope that whether I personally “lost sleep” over a Crime does not determine whether that Crime is actually a Crime. What if I didn’t have empathy? Would murder then be okay since I didn’t lose sleep over a murder? I sure hope you do not have to look at my “empathy reading” to be able to figure out if theft and murder are wrong. Simply, morality is not determined by a random person, perhaps hundreds of miles away, who might or might not be feeling a particular emotion at any given time.
C) Whether something personally offends me has nothing to do with the morality of the act whatsoever. One thing might not “offend” me (say if I was repeatedly misgendered), but it could very well offend a transgender individual. Therefore, being emotionally aware of other people (not just whether you individually are offended), is the way to go.

First, God exists and whether Jesus is God is not a “religious viewpoint.” It is a Truth claim about the world. It is either True or false. But those questions are for another thread.

Second, people do all sorts of consensual stuff in the “privacy of their bedrooms” that is immoral. What about the circumstances of the act, the proportionate weighing of the positive and negative consequences? If the fire alarm went off and you saw smoke, or if your child was screaming in the other room louder than he’d ever screamed before and needed your attention, or if you had to be to work very soon and you knew that you were going to be fired if you were late, then I sure hope you wouldn’t say: it is moral to go have sex (just as long as you agree to it), and who cares about the negative consequences because it’s in the ‘privacy of a bedroom’!

What about what is in your heart? I sure hope you wouldn’t say: being selfish or disrespectful is good, who cares about intentions because the circumstances are good (no proportionate harm). I sure hope you wouldn’t say that because you “consented” to harmful behavior, who cares about harm? Or if you were very good at being deceptive, and no one could guess what was in your heart (so there was no observable harm), then would you say: who cares about intentions! Go be selfish, etc?

Third, arguments from exclamation do not require a reply because they have no substance at all (“please let’s not have …“ is not an argument). If it were an argument, then thanks for the inguienity, I can now settle the debate by using it right back at you with an “argument from exclamation.”

I can assert right back at you:
“let’s please have none of this consent stuff. Who cares about consent? Obviously love, procreation, marriage, and freedom are what matters.”

Finally, why does the location of where you do wicked, depraved acts, such as doing it in the “privacy of your bedroom,” make it any less twisted? Would other crimes like rape or murder become moral if they were done privately?
 
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In an article from Homiletic and Pastoral Review, John Kippley reviews how we got to where we are today with respect to sexual morality, and what actions can be taken to reaffirm historic Church teaching.
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The author writes “In 2002 we learned that a small number of priests not only accepted sodomy … How did priests who took a promise of chaste celibacy come to think that it was now morally acceptable for them to engage in sodomy with consenting adults and even with minors …”

Yet I saw nothing presented to show that priests actually believed that it was morally acceptable, including the 2002 report from 40th Statewide Investigating Grand Jury. Can somebody point out where that is stated?
 
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Wozza:
You’re missing an option. That the church considers it’s view to be objective. I agree with that. It does consider it to be objective. But do I personally consider it to be objective? No, I do not.

I consider it to be a religious viewpoint based on scripture. With which I have no problem. If you’re a Catholic, then please follow the church’s rules. Just don’t think that everyone else should. And definitely do not insist that we must.
I get your point, but I don’t think that I missed an option. The Church considers its teaching on sodomy to be objectively correct (which the Church believes about almost all of its teachings), you do not. So you do not agree that the Church’s view on morality is (always) objectively correct. So you disagree on point #1. Not trying to be difficult, just trying to feel for the edges of the dispute.
Not to be pedantic, but point one was ‘the catholic view on morality is objectively correct’. I disagree. It isn’t. But I will agree that the Catholic church BELIEVES its view is correct.

And I was being pedantic, so apologies.
 
One of the commenters in the section following the original article also questioned that assumption. Did the abusing priests come to a conclusion that their actions were now acceptable, or did they simply do them while knowing them to be wrong? Kippley doesn’t really answer that question. The timeline of events he presents show that a great many people came to accept a variety of sexual activities that had previously been considered immoral. He seems to think that abusing priests were a part of that trend, while society in general was becominng more accepting of things that all Christian religions had previously condemned.
 
One of the commenters in the section following the original article also questioned that assumption. Did the abusing priests come to a conclusion that their actions were now acceptable, or did they simply do them while knowing them to be wrong? Kippley doesn’t really answer that question. The timeline of events he presents show that a great many people came to accept a variety of sexual activities that had previously been considered immoral. He seems to think that abusing priests were a part of that trend, while society in general was becominng more accepting of things that all Christian religions had previously condemned.
An acceptance that certain sexual acts are no longer considered to be morally wrong (rightly or wrongly) surely cannot be used as a justification for child rape.
 
Not to be pedantic, but point one was ‘the catholic view on morality is objectively correct’. I disagree. It isn’t. But I will agree that the Catholic church BELIEVES its view is correct.

And I was being pedantic, so apologies.
OK, I think we agree that the Catholic Church believes its view is objectively correct, and that you disagree with that. We probably also agree that there is little or no reason for non-Catholics to accept the Catholic Church’s assertion that it is objectively correct (at least without more than the mere assertion).

No apologies required.
 
An acceptance that certain sexual acts are no longer considered to be morally wrong (rightly or wrongly) surely cannot be used as a justification for child rape.
Certainly not, yet during the time period discussed, people were justifying fornication, adultery, and numerous sex acts that had previously been considered wrong. As shown by the MeToo movement, and various allegatiions of sexual assault on college campuses and elsewhere, the use of consensuality as a limiting factor did not seem to work.
 
The bottom line is that whatever you in your private time, at least know what the Church has to say about it. If you’re going to break the rules, at least have the courtesy to know what those rules are first and know that you are breaking them voluntary and with full knowledge of your acts(s).

As far as the sin aspect of it goes, don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.
 
An acceptance that certain sexual acts are no longer considered to be morally wrong (rightly or wrongly) surely cannot be used as a justification for child rape.
This gets to an interesting point. Doesn’t whether one believes that consensual sodomy and child rape are connected depend on one’s view of sexual morality?

If one’s view of sexual morality is based on a purity doctrine, meaning that some acts are impure and therefore always forbidden, then i can see how that person may believe that rejecting the concept of sexual purity would lead to unbounded behavior.

Put a slightly different way, if one’s view of sexual morality is based on a deontological list of correct and incorrect behaviors (independent of any other reasoning into the value or merits of the actions), throwing out the list could be said to lead to unbounded or uncontrolled behavior.

If, however, sexual acts are judged the way most other acts are judged - that is, based on whether they cause harm, are done with knowing consent, and so forth, then changing one’s view of a particular act does not lead to chaos - as sexual acts are still bounded by the same basic moral doctrines as any other act.

I find that some people adopt one of the first two views, and therefore think that “changing the rules” will lead to a parade of horrible behaviors. Those that take the third view - that sex acts are to be judged as any other act is judged - tend to believe that coming to different conclusions about the morality of one act will have little or no impact on the prevalence of other, different, acts.

Which is a long way of saying that most people understand that allowing two adults to have whatever sex they want does not lead to pedophilia, but I get why some people think differently (even if I don’t agree with them).
 
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Wozza:
An acceptance that certain sexual acts are no longer considered to be morally wrong (rightly or wrongly) surely cannot be used as a justification for child rape.
Certainly not, yet during the time period discussed, people were justifying fornication, adultery, and numerous sex acts that had previously been considered wrong. As shown by the MeToo movement, and various allegatiions of sexual assault on college campuses and elsewhere, the use of consensuality as a limiting factor did not seem to work.
You didn’t mention consent. Consent is always required. By those able to give it. That sexual practices might have recently come to be considered acceptable (which I think is nonsense anyway) doesn’t need to include the concept of consent.
 
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