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Digitonomy
Guest
I’m not so sure about this; never is a long time.
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Digitonomy
Guest
I notice that the Ordinariate is located at OLW in Houston. Does this mean that parish, and other Anglican use parishes, are destined to be transferred from the archdiocese to the ordinariate?
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Filii_Dei
Guest
Yes, OLW seems the most likely candidate for being under the Personal Ordinariate. However, membership is still dependent upon the initiative of the Anglican Use parishes. There is no ‘destiny’ as they are not automatically transferred to the jurisdiction to the Personal Ordinariate. The parish must apply for it themselves and be accepted.
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Digitonomy
Guest
Interesting. So an Anglican use parish could choose to remain under its current bishop rather than joining the ordinariate? And in that case I assume the bishop could (in theory) refuse the requested transfer of parish property and clerics to the ordinariate.
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TrueLight
Guest
Will the Anglican Use rite still exist or will those parishes become part of the Ordinariate?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
The Ordinariate uses the Anglican Use rite. They are two different things.
The Ordinariate is the formal ecclesial structure that governs the Anglicans who convert to Catholicism. It is a structure equal in most respects to a diocese, except that it is not limited by geographical boundaries (other than the US Ordinariate being limited to the US and the UK’s to the UK). You can think of it as a “personal diocese,” in that it serves the people of a specific type rather than a territorial area. Think of the Extraordinary Form personal parishes operated by the FSSP, for example. The parishes aren’t limited by territorial bounds, they’re limited by the people they serve, which is their own personal choice. The Ordinariate works in the same way, except it works as a diocese rather than as a parish, and it governs the Anglican Use parishes.
The Anglican Use is not an ecclesial structure. It is a liturgical rite of the Latin Church that is used by the churches that the Ordinariate is in charge of. It is a mixed adaptation of two of the Anglican Books of Common Worship and of the Roman Rite. This mixed adaptation is published as a book called the Book of Divine Worship, which is thoroughly Catholic in theology and dogma but with very Anglican phrasing. The structure is a hybrid.
Think of it like this:
The Diocese of (_______) uses the Roman Rite, according to the Roman Missal
The Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham (which is the full title) uses the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite, according to the Book of Divine Worship
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TrueLight
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Great explanation. Thanks.
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jwinch2
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A minor correction.
At this time, the Ordinariate is not in charge of any of the Anglican Use parishes. Rather, they are part of their local diocese. Those parishes which are identified as Anlgican Use came in through the Pastoral Provision promulgated by Blessed JP2, well before the Ordinariate was put in place.
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Dan_Daly
Guest
Glad to help. When you get the time try listening to some of the other sermons on that website I linked to. Great stuff.Dan Daly:
You are so very fabulous. Thank you so much because you have cleared some of this up for me.
"Anglo-Catholics" Again Protestants, but a subset of the previous group, many of whom are closer to Catholic belief, but still not in union with Rome and without valid apostolic succession."
Bingo----this is what my friends call themselves. Anglo-Catholics. But they insist they are not protestants and are as Catholic as me. I don’t know how this can be since they reject the Pope.So, am I right to think that only the Anglican Use Catholics are really Catholic in their beliefs and they are the ones that are joining our faith? If so then I think I got it!!
Thanks for clearing some of this up for me. I am off the see the video in hopes the rest of my questions are answered.
Pax Christi
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Faithdancer
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I attended my first Episcopalian Mass this evening in Hollywood. The church, St. Thomas’, is nearly 100 years old, Gothic, and gorgeous. The service was, quite frankly, more orthodoxly Catholic than some Catholic services I’ve attended lately. No rock band, no clapping, much Marian veneration, and the liturgy was pretty much Second Missal. The Mass, held in the churches Lady Chapel since only the few faithful were in attendance along with the odd visitor (me) was preceded by Vespers in the Damien chapel.
Interestingly enough, it was the priest’s last service of Mass as an Episcopalian- he is going to be transitioned into the Catholic priesthood. The Church itself will remain Episcopalian, however.
Interestingly enough, it was the priest’s last service of Mass as an Episcopalian- he is going to be transitioned into the Catholic priesthood. The Church itself will remain Episcopalian, however.
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Faithdancer
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By the way, I’ve studied many Anglican and Episcopalian websites over the past couple of days and I’ve yet to find a branch of the general Christian denomination that is Anglican or Episcopalian or Anglo-Catholic, etc. does not claim Apostolic succession. They simply don’t agree that Apostolic succession occurs only in the Vatican.
There is a group of conservative Anglicans who broke away from the main body and do claim Apostolic succession. One of the largest of these groups is the Orthodox Anglican Church, which claims about 1 million members worldwide, has their own prelate, and opposes ordination of women, gay marriage, and the “new” Book of Common Prayer, holding to the 1928 version. Their numbers can be expected to grow as the backlash over the ordination of female and gay Episcopalian bishops continues.
There is a group of conservative Anglicans who broke away from the main body and do claim Apostolic succession. One of the largest of these groups is the Orthodox Anglican Church, which claims about 1 million members worldwide, has their own prelate, and opposes ordination of women, gay marriage, and the “new” Book of Common Prayer, holding to the 1928 version. Their numbers can be expected to grow as the backlash over the ordination of female and gay Episcopalian bishops continues.
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Faithdancer
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The belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was very apparent in the Episcopalian service I attended today. The liturgy of the Eucharist was virtually identical to that in the Catholic Mass. The Eucharist was received kneeling at the altar rail, too.Is there a list of churches that have been accepted by Rome.
I have an Anglican friend that keeps telling me I can receive communion at her Anglican church but I know that they are not in union with the Pope and I am not so sure they believe Christ is truly in the Eurchrist.
So, I’d like to make sure before I get in too deep.A list would be most helpful.
p.s. the priest faced the altar as well, away from the people. Haven’t seen that in a while! I’m going to go to a High Mass next time, see how that looks.
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horselvr
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faithdancer:
Yes the services are close to a Catholic Mass and while the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist may seem apparent to those in attendance, the Vatican begs to differ thanks to Pope Leo as the AS has been broken.
Catholics are NOT allowed to receive Communion (sacraments) in any church other than Catholic and only by their Ordained Priests. Even if their service has all the bells and whistles, an alter, a railing, a Eucharist prayer, a priest that faces the alter, old gothic etc.
I have been around and around this whole thing for quite a few years and while my friend who is an Episcopalian priest tells me I can receive communion in his church I know for a fact, differently. Honestly, I view that as dishonest as he knows better. I have known him since he was a little boy and remember when he was “ordained”. I have also been to his Mother’s church–Anglican— and they too insisted I receive communion in that church and were somewhat upset when I would not. I no longer visit others churches not even out of friendship.
However, I am glad you enjoyed the service but I do hope that you, as a Roman Catholic, were not fooled into receiving communion.
The video posted is very educational as are the others. Please take the time for viewing.
Yes the services are close to a Catholic Mass and while the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist may seem apparent to those in attendance, the Vatican begs to differ thanks to Pope Leo as the AS has been broken.
Catholics are NOT allowed to receive Communion (sacraments) in any church other than Catholic and only by their Ordained Priests. Even if their service has all the bells and whistles, an alter, a railing, a Eucharist prayer, a priest that faces the alter, old gothic etc.
I have been around and around this whole thing for quite a few years and while my friend who is an Episcopalian priest tells me I can receive communion in his church I know for a fact, differently. Honestly, I view that as dishonest as he knows better. I have known him since he was a little boy and remember when he was “ordained”. I have also been to his Mother’s church–Anglican— and they too insisted I receive communion in that church and were somewhat upset when I would not. I no longer visit others churches not even out of friendship.
However, I am glad you enjoyed the service but I do hope that you, as a Roman Catholic, were not fooled into receiving communion.
The video posted is very educational as are the others. Please take the time for viewing.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Right, but, there is no Real Presence in an Anglican service. Never, unless their priest was ordained by a Catholic bishop.
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Filii_Dei
Guest
Or Old Catholic. Ever heard of the Dutch Touch?
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Faithdancer
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I think that most people are aware of this. There is really no need for capitalization, i.e. shouting. And please clarify your use of the word, “fooled.”
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Faithdancer
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Good point Filii Dei.Or Old Catholic. Ever heard of the Dutch Touch?
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liturgyluver
Guest
Actually I don’t think your friend was being dishonest. As far as he and other Anglicans/Episcopalians are concerned, the Canon of the Anglican Church allow all confirmed Christians to receive communion at their services.
Now we Catholics are debarred from receiving communion anywhere but at a Catholic church,as you rightly say,but that is OUR responsibility to know not to receive, not the responsibility of the church we happen to be attending. Perhaps it’s different in the UK, but when I attend CofE services there is no problem with politely declining the invitation of the communion usher to receive - besides I’ve noticed that I am never alone and many others choose not to receive, just like in our churches.
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Faithdancer
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Henry VIII “stole?” The rest of your post seems to speak of preservation. So is Henry VIII then to be posthumously thanked, even if preserving great tradition was only an inadvertent effect of his creation of the Church of England?Praise be to God.
Pope Benedict is the Pope of Christian unity.
usordinariate.org/
Anyone else want to attend Mass at one of their churches? Their masses seem absolutely fantastic.
For example:
walsingham-church.org/site/Weekly_Bulletin_files/Mass-Mary%20Mother%20of%20God%202012.pdf
It seems they do a wonderful liturgy. The structure of the Mass is, in my opinion, is one of the best of any rite. I would love to go to Mass at one of these Ordinariate churches. The music is ridiculous, in a good way. I think it’s an excellent compromise between the EF and the OF, along with some of its own Anglican flavor. I like. I mean, look at where they put the “peace.” Before the Offertory. What a genius idea!
Anyone else hoping that this will have a “gravitational pull?”
We’re taking back what Henry VIII stole! And for the better! Just another reason liturgy fascinates me.
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Faithdancer
Guest
Nice to read a post with a moderate and conciliatory tone in this thread. Just one addition- most of the Anglican and Episcopalian websites I’ve visited, and there have been a number- indicate that baptism is the only Sacrament necessary to receive communion in their churches.
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