The new Anglican Ordinariate is established today!

[TheMc]

Yes, I do think I was fair.

My point was that we cannot simply dismiss the glaring omission from Pope Benedict (of the possibility of Anglican attempted ordinations as being valid) as a mere “streamline this matter to avoid messy and distracting investigations into the status of various Anglican priests’ ordinations”

While I don’t pretend to know what is in the Pope’s mind, the question itself is so painfully obvious that it defies reasoning to say that this was not something he at least considered.

What if a former Anglican asserts that his previous ordination was a valid one? Is naturally a question that would arise in implementing the Apostolic Constitution.

Pope Benedict chose not to answer that question in the Constitution itself.

Why not? Because we must accept as a given that Anglican attempts at ordination are absolutely null and utterly void.

The possibility of an Anglican having been validly ordained is so remote that it need not be addressed in the Constitution. Might it happen? Yes, I admit it might.

The few times that this has been brought to the attention of the Holy See, the conclusion has always been that either he must be ordained w/o conditions, or be ordained conditionally: never (at least since the 1600s) has an Anglican ordination been accepted as valid.

Remember that in Catholic theology, repeating ordination (in the same degree) is not merely a violation of discipline, it is an act of sacrilege–since it denies the validity of the first ordination. To say that the Church would not do this (re-ordain) merely to streamline the process of receiving former Anglicans is not consistent with the Church’s theology or praxis. The issue is so serious that no amount of investigation and discernement is “too much” before risking the possibility of truly re-ordaining a validly ordained priest.

If the Holy Father saw re-ordaining as something to be a likely reality, surely he would have said at least something about it in the Constitution. The fact that he omitted it speaks volumes here.

I unfortunately haven’t followed this thread, but if there is any doubt, couldn’t a man be conditionally ordained? I have to be honest, this is one area I don’t know very much about.

 

[FrDavid96]

I unfortunately haven’t followed this thread, but if there is any doubt, couldn’t a man be conditionally ordained? I have to be honest, this is one area I don’t know very much about.

Yes.

But the point I was making is that the doubt is such a remote possibility when talking about Anglican attempts at ordination that the Pope did not even address it in the Apostolic Constitution.

Surely, if he felt that something had changed between Pope Leo’s declaration and the present day, he would have addressed this in Anglicanorum Coetibus. The fact that he did not tells us (in my assessment) that he does not think anything has changed.

We have to take it as a given that all Anglican attempts at ordination are absolutely null and utterly void; without however excluding the possibility that, in individual cases, the Holy See might entertain the question of ordaining conditionally.

 

[dochawk]

This may be true, but the introduction of the Old Catholic apostolic lineage did not occur merely a few years ago. In fact, it happened in the early 20th century before either had begun ordaining women. If their apostolic succession has been established in all subsequent Anglican episcopal consecrations, then it would be interesting to wonder if Continuing Anglicans have valid orders, since they do not recognise the ordination of women and so their “understanding of the Sacrament” would not be hindered by that.

“notch clergy” ?



There could indeed be a gap period after Dutch touching but before female “ordaining,” but I thinktht Fr. David’s comment on the intent being “Anglican orders” rather than apostolic succession are well taken.

I’d stop short of the “intent to repair” standard; there could easily be an intent analogous to conditional ordination, but it’s going to be rare . . .

Also, do you have the source that says that the Old Catholic orders are no longer valid due to them attempting to ordain women? I would like to archive that for future reference.

Unfortunately, no. But Fr. David’s explanation goes a long way on this. If the intent is to create something that can be either male or female, whatever that something is is not a bishop!

Hawk

 

[beckers]

Thank you for posting this thread. I actually am a parishioner at Our Lady of Walsingham and we are so excited for ever thing. If you ever come to Houston you should stop in for mass. We are a small but active parish made up up former Anglicans and cradle Catholics and have been around for 25years.

Our Mother plans things well because we just finished the shrine and rosary fountain and the church hall last year. Very fitting that it happened right before she was declared the patronage.

 

[Chatter163]

Moderator, is there any chance that we could resurrect the Anglicanorum Coetibus sub-forum from late 2009/early 2010? There seem to be enough posts for it. :tiphat:

 

[JGMendes4049]

Moderator, is there any chance that we could resurrect the Anglicanorum Coetibus sub-forum from late 2009/early 2010? There seem to be enough posts for it. :tiphat:

I recommend you PM one of them.

 

[Genovefa]

I don’t understand how this decision does anything for individual Anglicans who do not live near any of these Anglican congregations.

I seems to be a decision about moving a few churches into communion, but the majority of Anglicans do not live anywhere near one of these congregations, so essentially we have to convert, leave the Anglican church all together, and become Catholic.

Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[FrDavid96]

I don’t understand how this decision does anything for individual Anglicans who do not live near any of these Anglican congregations.

I seems to be a decision about moving a few churches into communion, but the majority of Anglicans do not live anywhere near one of these congregations, so essentially we have to convert, leave the Anglican church all together, and become Catholic.

Am I understanding this correctly?

I do think you’re understanding it.

As an individual Anglican, you can still join the Ordinariate, but unfortunately it might not mean very much if there is no Ordinariate parish near you. For all practical purposes you’d be a member in name only–but you would still be a Catholic. You would be in a situation similar to an Eastern Catholic who does not live near an Eastern parish.

I wish I could respond with a better answer, but if there’s no Ordinariate parish near you, or no local community of Anglicans seeking (or likely in the near future) to join the Ordinariate, that’s the best that can be said.

Don’t let it hold you back though. Remember that you’re always welcome to join the Catholic Church even if you won’t be able to attend local Anglican Masses at the present time.

 

[Genovefa]

Thank you Fr. David for your considerate response.

Right now I attend at a conservative high-church Episcopal parish with Catholic “leanings”. I also frequently attend Mass at the local Catholic church without partaking.

I know that it is not likely to happen anytime soon, but I do wish that Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox believers could all become part of one communion while retaining some of their uniqueness and traditions. This does seem to be a step in that direction, however.

One more question…has the process for being received into the Catholic church changed for individual Anglicans wanting to be in full communion with the RC (joining the Ordinate) or is it still done through the same way (RCIA, confirmation, etc)?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Thank you Fr. David for your considerate response.

Right now I attend at a conservative high-church Episcopal parish with Catholic “leanings”. I also frequently attend Mass at the local Catholic church without partaking.

I know that it is not likely to happen anytime soon, but I do wish that Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox believers could all become part of one communion while retaining some of their uniqueness and traditions. This does seem to be a step in that direction, however.

I think we are very close (that is, considering our 1000 year east-west split and 500ish year Catholic CofE split) to reconciling. However, I hope that we continue to keep our liturgical patrimonies distinct.

 

[Genovefa]

I think we are very close (that is, considering our 1000 year east-west split and 500ish year Catholic CofE split) to reconciling. However, I hope that we continue to keep our liturgical patrimonies distinct.

That would be wonderful!

 

[Vico]

I do think you’re understanding it.

As an individual Anglican, you can still join the Ordinariate, but unfortunately it might not mean very much if there is no Ordinariate parish near you. For all practical purposes you’d be a member in name only–but you would still be a Catholic. You would be in a situation similar to an Eastern Catholic who does not live near an Eastern parish.

I wish I could respond with a better answer, but if there’s no Ordinariate parish near you, or no local community of Anglicans seeking (or likely in the near future) to join the Ordinariate, that’s the best that can be said.

Don’t let it hold you back though. Remember that you’re always welcome to join the Catholic Church even if you won’t be able to attend local Anglican Masses at the present time.

A personal ordinariate is canonically of the Latin Church and is equivalent to a diocese, but for former Anglicans only (and I suppose their children). It that respect it is different than an eastern Catholic Church and is more similar to a diocese using one of the other liturgies such as the Ambrosian.

 

[MarkBrown]

Thank you Fr. David for your considerate response.

Right now I attend at a conservative high-church Episcopal parish with Catholic “leanings”. I also frequently attend Mass at the local Catholic church without partaking.

I know that it is not likely to happen anytime soon, but I do wish that Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox believers could all become part of one communion while retaining some of their uniqueness and traditions. This does seem to be a step in that direction, however.

One more question…has the process for being received into the Catholic church changed for individual Anglicans wanting to be in full communion with the RC (joining the Ordinate) or is it still done through the same way (RCIA, confirmation, etc)?

Try this link. A list of all Anglican Use, Ordinariate, and hopefully ordinariate/Anglican Use parishes in the UK, Canada and the USA. One maybe near you.

Check with the ones in the USA and Canada. Not all are yet in communion with Rome.

hope this helps.

g.co/maps/657vr

 

[5Loaves]

One more question…has the process for being received into the Catholic church changed for individual Anglicans wanting to be in full communion with the RC (joining the Ordinate) or is it still done through the same way (RCIA, confirmation, etc)?

If you are in the US then the National Statues for the Catechumenate (page 368) of the U.S. Conference of Bishops have established that Christians are received into full communion without undue delay.

“Those baptized persons who have lived as Christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition and a degree of probation within the Catholic community should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the catechumenate” (NSC 31)…

"[t]he reception of candidates into the communion of the Catholic Church should ordinarily take place at the Sunday Eucharist of the parish community, in such a way that it is understood that they are indeed Christian believers who have already shared in the sacramental life of the Church and are now welcomed into the Catholic Eucharistic community . . . " (NSC 32).

…"It is preferable that reception into full communion not take place at the Easter Vigil lest there be any confusion of such baptized Christians with the candidates for baptism, possible misunderstanding of or even reflection upon the sacrament of baptism celebrated in another Church or ecclesial community . . . " (NSC 33).

Unless there is a good reason for them to share instruction with the unbaptized who make up the order of catechumens these baptized candidates should have only the instruction necessary for their preparation to make an informed declaration of faith and then receive the Sacrament of Confirmation and Holy Eucharist. The Rite of Reception of Baptized Christians into the full Communion of the Catholic Church may happen in a weekday Mass or a Sunday Mass, and can in fact take place outside of Mass. RCIA Ritual text paragraph 476. (Page 275)

The exception to this is Christians who are Orthodox. There is no rite involved since their Chrismation/Confirmation in the Orthodox Church is valid. There is no ritual involved, only a profession of faith is made. RCIA Ritual text paragraph 474. (Page 275)

 

[Chatter163]

One more question…has the process for being received into the Catholic church changed for individual Anglicans wanting to be in full communion with the RC (joining the Ordinate) or is it still done through the same way (RCIA, confirmation, etc)?

That is what I had to do 28 years ago. Felt odd, but I offered it up and went with it. I hope that you will consider it. You will not regret it, even if you must endure RCIA.:tiphat:

 

[YoungTradCath]

Thank you Fr. David for your considerate response.

Right now I attend at a conservative high-church Episcopal parish with Catholic “leanings”. I also frequently attend Mass at the local Catholic church without partaking.

I know that it is not likely to happen anytime soon, but I do wish that Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox believers could all become part of one communion while retaining some of their uniqueness and traditions. This does seem to be a step in that direction, however.

One more question…has the process for being received into the Catholic church changed for individual Anglicans wanting to be in full communion with the RC (joining the Ordinate) or is it still done through the same way (RCIA, confirmation, etc)?

They have parish-wide catechetical sessions, probably not dissimilar to an average RCIA meeting. I am not sure if this is done by the parish priest, or by an existing Ordinariate or Roman Rite priest.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I think we are very close (that is, considering our 1000 year east-west split and 500ish year Catholic CofE split) to reconciling. However, I hope that we continue to keep our liturgical patrimonies distinct.

Yes, the 500 anniversary is coming up in a few years. We have been praying for reconcilliation, and this is such a positive sign!

My non-Catholic in-laws see signs of a split in the Presbrytrian church now that they have approved gay clergy and same-sex marriage. While I hate to see it happen this way (with more splits in other parts of the christian body), I am very pleased to hear that traditionally minded folks are gathering together. There is stremgth in numbers!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

One more question…has the process for being received into the Catholic church changed for individual Anglicans wanting to be in full communion with the RC (joining the Ordinate) or is it still done through the same way (RCIA, confirmation, etc)?

I haven’t heard the the process for individuals has changed. However, speak to your Catholic priest. Baptised Christians don’t have to go through all the same program as the non-baptised. I know many who did not. There is though, soemthing to be said for going through RCIA with a good priest. You can learn a lot, and you develop friendships with those entering the church and the team.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thank you Fr. David for your considerate response.

Right now I attend at a conservative high-church Episcopal parish with Catholic “leanings”. I also frequently attend Mass at the local Catholic church without partaking.

I know that it is not likely to happen anytime soon, but I do wish that Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox believers could all become part of one communion while retaining some of their uniqueness and traditions. This does seem to be a step in that direction, however.

One more question…has the process for being received into the Catholic church changed for individual Anglicans wanting to be in full communion with the RC (joining the Ordinate) or is it still done through the same way (RCIA, confirmation, etc)?

I missed that last question earlier.

Everyone (except a former Orthodox) who is joining the Catholic Church as an adult does go through RCIA.

There is often confusion about RCIA here on these boards. RCIA is not only for those who are unbaptised. RCIA takes 3 forms:

1 RCIA for Unbaptised adults
2 RCIA for Adults baptised outside the Catholic Church
3 RCIA for baptised Catholics who (for whatever reason) did not receive the sacraments of First Communion and/or Confirmation as children

All three forms are still RCIA.

An adult Anglican who wishes to become Catholic would go through the RCIA process, but not as an unbaptised person; as a previously baptised one.

An Anglican could be received into the Church by RCIA and be received by a priest of the Anglican Ordinariate if there is one available.

If no Anglican Ordinariate priest is available, the local Catholic pastor can receive a former Anglican into the Church, again via RCIA. That person would still be able to join the Ordinariate as an individual or wait until there is a local Anglican-use parish and join at that time.

 

[BettyBoop416]

Not real sure which forum to put this question in, but I went with this one.

Let me begin by saying that I am pretty much ignorant about Anglican Use Catholics, and that I am in no way affected by this personally. It’s just a matter of curiosity.

Anyway…my understanding is that in certain cases and after meeting many requirements and conditions (most of which I know nothing about) an Anglican parish can become part of the Catholic Church, and the members of this parish become Catholic. My question is regarding those members of the parish who are in marriage situations that would be considered irregular in the Catholic Church. How are those people affected when their parish is absorbed into the Church?