The New Apostolic Reformation

[00columcille00]

Does anyone have any personal experience with the New Apostolic Reformation?

For example:

The Seven Mountain Mandate
The International Coalition of Apostles
Transform Our World

 

[ltwin]

No I do not, but I would recommend you stay away, far away just based on what I’ve heard. They have a very warped view on the

*the role of the church in soceity (they advocate “dominion” theology)
*spiritual authority
*the role of apostles
*the role of prophets
*spiritual warfare

 

[Trebor135]

No I do not, but I would recommend you stay away, far away just based on what I’ve heard. They have a very warped view on the

*the role of the church in soceity (they advocate “dominion” theology)
*spiritual authority
*the role of apostles
*the role of prophets
*spiritual warfare

Please elaboarate on what makes these five items so questionable. For instance, Catholics couldn’t be against spiritual warfare or the practice of exorcism would have to cease straight away.

Plus, I’d like to know if they’re even trinitarian.

 

[Victoria_R]

Thank you my friend. http://images.thebestexercisebikes.net/images/smile.gif

 

[ltwin]

Please elaboarate on what makes these five items so questionable. For instance, Catholics couldn’t be against spiritual warfare or the practice of exorcism would have to cease straight away.

Plus, I’d like to know if they’re even trinitarian.

They are Trinitarian. As per their treatment of the following:

*the role of the church in soceity (they advocate “dominion” theology)
*spiritual authority
*the role of apostles
*the role of prophets
*spiritual warfare

It is, as I said, their understanding which is off.

I am Pentecostal, so I believe in the present day apostolic and prophetic functions of the church. They are needed. However, the self appointed “apostles” and “prophets” of the NAR seem more interested in creating their own positions of power than actually doing the work of real apostles and prophets. The job descriptions are in the New Testament.

Spiritual warfare, I am also familiar with. However the NAR focuses an inordinate amount of time on which demonic principality, throne, dominion, etc. is exercising authority over a given nation, region, or person that they almost glorify the demonic at the expense of God. We as Christians do not need to find and search out which demonic influence is specifically targeting a person or people group as if they could stop the gospel from reaching a people. We simply speak to Satan with Christ’s authority and tell him to leave us alone.

 

[Silent_Bob]

Please check out websites related to C. Peter Wagner for more specific information about NAR. He has the best articulation of beliefs regarding churches associated with NAR. I know Peter and several key leaders in NAR and believe them to be steadfast as Christians although I do not accept all of their theology or practices. Please pray for Peter and his wife (Doris) who are getting on in years and both have serious health problems.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Weird new version of protestantism.

 

[wisdomseeker]

As long as man holds the Bible in their hands not telling what kinds of ideas and theology they can come up with. they read and develop ideas and opinions about God. and so they go. it would so much easier if they seek the Holy of God already established 2000 yrs by God and guided by the HS to teach the Truth to all man.

 

[00columcille00]

They are Trinitarian. As per their treatment of the following:

*the role of the church in soceity (they advocate “dominion” theology)
*spiritual authority
*the role of apostles
*the role of prophets
*spiritual warfare

It is, as I said, their understanding which is off.

I am Pentecostal, so I believe in the present day apostolic and prophetic functions of the church. They are needed. However, the self appointed “apostles” and “prophets” of the NAR seem more interested in creating their own positions of power than actually doing the work of real apostles and prophets. The job descriptions are in the New Testament.

Spiritual warfare, I am also familiar with. However the NAR focuses an inordinate amount of time on which demonic principality, throne, dominion, etc. is exercising authority over a given nation, region, or person that they almost glorify the demonic at the expense of God. We as Christians do not need to find and search out which demonic influence is specifically targeting a person or people group as if they could stop the gospel from reaching a people. We simply speak to Satan with Christ’s authority and tell him to leave us alone.

How should the “present day apostolic and prophetic functions of the church” operate and how do they operate today? Can you point to examples of how their “understanding is off” and how they are seeking their own power versus doing the real work. Is this fellow Peter Wagner an example of that?

Also, my own understanding of intercessory prayer and spiritual warfare from the Catholic tradition is different from the one you describe. Demons are identified by name for the intercessor to exercise authority over them in the name of Jesus. In my experience, Demons are very legalistic. If you evict “Satan” by name but not “Baal” and it is Baal or Jezebel who are the principalities and powers operating, they are not going to leave. I think scripture names demons for a reason. By naming them, you are not glorifying them, you are exercising authority by virtue of Baptism in Christ as priest, prophet and king.

Also, are their discernible fruits from the NAR?

 

[ltwin]

How should the “present day apostolic and prophetic functions of the church” operate and how do they operate today? Can you point to examples of how their “understanding is off” and how they are seeking their own power versus doing the real work. Is this fellow Peter Wagner an example of that?

Also, my own understanding of intercessory prayer and spiritual warfare from the Catholic tradition is different from the one you describe. Demons are identified by name for the intercessor to exercise authority over them in the name of Jesus. In my experience, Demons are very legalistic. If you evict “Satan” by name but not “Baal” and it is Baal or Jezebel who are the principalities and powers operating, they are not going to leave. I think scripture names demons for a reason. By naming them, you are not glorifying them, you are exercising authority by virtue of Baptism in Christ as priest, prophet and king.

Also, are their discernible fruits from the NAR?

Is this the doctrine of the Catholic Church concerning spiritual warfare:

For many in the church this excessive interest in all things supernatural has found expression in two related beliefs and practices

1. Territorial Spirits/Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare which believes that certain spirits have control over certain geo-political locations and in order for the Gospel to reach people these sprits have to be “bound” and their hold on the area broken.

1. Portals are geographic locations on Earth that possess super-spiritual access to the realm of the Divine and that Heaven and Earth can be aligned by cleansing the area of demonic spirits.

Certainly these beliefs are closely tied in with Dominionism… inasmuch as it is believed that the binding of territorial spirits is an crucial step towards the Christianization of the world, leading to the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth before Christ can, or will return.

Or is this?

Operation Ice Castle:
Ana Méndez Ferrell, once a witch in Haiti’s Voodoo cult, founded of the Voice of The Light Ministry along with her husband Emerson Ferrell. She calls herself “An ordained prophet and apostle” [3b] Apparently, according to C Peter Wagner

the Holy Spirit clearly showed her that a principal stronghold over the 10/40 Window was located on Mt. Everest in Nepal, and that she was to lead a team of intercessors in a frontal attack on this power of darkness, who was none other than the Queen of Heaven. Before finally deciding to go, she sought the agreement of Rony Chavez, Harold Caballeros, Cindy Jacobs, George Otis, Jr., Fred Markert, Chuck Pierce, Doris Wagner, me, and others. [3c]

Three teams (one led by Doris Wagner) then undertook the spiritual warfare mission to the Himalayas named “Operation Ice Castle” to combat the chief of all territorial demons, the “Queen of Heaven.” Wagner quotes Ana Mendez’s report

"God spoke to us that He was going to release judgment upon the iniquity and over the false religious systems of the world. He said that he was going to bring down the foundations of ‘Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots.’ [This is the Queen of Heaven. The ancient name of Everest is Sagarmata, meaning “Mother of the Universe.”] [3c]

According to C Peter Wagner “the most difficult, dangerous, and technically exacting part of the Everest ascent” took place on September 22, 1997. After describing “an incredible climbing anointing” that came over the team, she says they were about to reach the point where they had located the seat of the Queen of Heaven when the devil unleashed his fury and a huge avalanche broke loose above them. Miraculously saved they

"… continued toward our goal, and when we arrived we took the throne that the Lord had showed us, prophesying against the powers of darkness and declaring the judgment of God on the whore of Babylon and the false religions of the world. [3c]

However I am really confused. They took this trip to declare “the judgment of God on the whore of Babylon and the false religions of the world”.

But didn’t the apostle John already tell us this would happen? I seem to recall him talking about Babylon the great, the “habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit” who’s sins have reached even unto heaven” and that judgment on her was already pronounced… “in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire” [Revelation 18]. See Two Babylons

C Peter Wagner then says

Ana points to some world events which occurred within two weeks after the prophetic act at the throne of the Queen of Heaven which she senses have some connection: (1) The nation of Indonesia, the largest Muslim nation in the world, caught on fire and began to burn on that very day; (2) An earthquake destroyed the Basilica of Assisi in Italy, the place where the Pope had called a meeting for the unity of all world religions; (3) Hurricane Paulina destroyed the infamous temple of “Baal-Christ” in Acapulco, Mexico; (4) Princess Diana of England died, representing the crown of England, to whom Mt. Everest was consecrated by Sir Edmund Hillary; and (5) Mother Theresa, one of the most visible advocates of exalting Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix, died in India. [3c]

However Ana’s sensing of the supposed related events are as off base as her claim that the Queen of Heaven had a stronghold on Everest.

[“Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare & Territorial Spirits”](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/dt7_spiritual_warfare.html)

“Operation Queen’s Palace”

Somehow I doubt it. If this is not what Wagner or NAR believes, let me know. If it is, it is highly disturbing, and I’m no Catholic or an advocate of Mary veneration.

 

[00columcille00]

Is this the doctrine of the Catholic Church concerning spiritual warfare:

Or is this?

[“Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare & Territorial Spirits”](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/dt7_spiritual_warfare.html)

“Operation Queen’s Palace”

Somehow I doubt it. If this is not what Wagner or NAR believes, let me know. If it is, it is highly disturbing, and I’m no Catholic or an advocate of Mary veneration.

I don’t think that the teaching on territorial spirits or portals is necessarily in conflict with Catholic teaching. We consecrate Churches to various saints - that is a territory placed under the intercessory dominion of a particular saint. The inverse could also be the case, especially if occult forces do a black consecration of a place to a particular demon. Also, we have places like Lourdes that could be considered territorial portals of extraordinary grace flowing through those places into the world. Those who believe in Medjugorje have a similar view concerning that location. There is no reason why some places are portals where real evil has a stronghold.

Nothing that I’m aware of makes these ideas or the approach of doing strategic intercession in conflict with the Catholic faith. There is a difference between something being an official teaching and something being in conflict. There is a lot of freedom within Catholicism as long as we are not in conflict with teaching.

Now, Peter Wagner’s opinion about the fruits of his intercession are his own. I obviously would not draw the connections that he does concerning Mother Teresa and Assisi. Also, there is a pagan goddess called Ashtoreth who is identified at the Queen of Heaven. Some protestants think that the Blessed Virgin Mary is basically this demonic spirit being worshiped by Catholics. Obviously I disagree.

But having this confusion is distinguishable from the goals and means of this movement, which seems to be about using spiritual means to transform society and claim it for Jesus.

Isn’t this what Gaudium et Spes called for?

 

[CopticChristian]

Does anyone have any personal experience with the New Apostolic Reformation?

For example:

The Seven Mountain Mandate
The International Coalition of Apostles
Transform Our World

Sarah Palin, Huckabee, Dominionism, Rushdie…

 

[CopticChristian]

Please elaboarate on what makes these five items so questionable. For instance, Catholics couldn’t be against spiritual warfare or the practice of exorcism would have to cease straight away.

Plus, I’d like to know if they’re even trinitarian.

They are Protestant, Calvinist, Anti-Catholic and want to bring the OT laws into the present, such as execution of homosexual, adulters etc…

 

[Izdaari]

They are Protestant, Calvinist, Anti-Catholic and want to bring the OT laws into the present, such as execution of homosexual, adulters etc…

My contact with the NAR is all from the political side. I keep running into them in connection with dominionism and theonomy, movements that tend to support the theocratic side of Protestantism. And while I am from the same side of the faith as they are (evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.), I am utterly opposed to that kind of politics. I support pluralistic democracy, with maximum freedom of speech, religion and conscience for all, and have no use for anything that even smells a little bit like theocracy. Accordingly, if I hear that a candidate supports or is supported by the NAR, I will probably vote against them… even if I otherwise agree with them.

 

[ltwin]

They are Protestant, Calvinist, Anti-Catholic and want to bring the OT laws into the present, such as execution of homosexual, adulters etc…

Are they really Calvinist??? My knowledge of their beliefs in that area isn’t really good, so I don’t know. However, they are continuationists, and it seems that Calvinists tend to be cessationists.

 

[Izdaari]

Are they really Calvinist??? My knowledge of their beliefs in that area isn’t really good, so I don’t know. However, they are continuationists, and it seems that Calvinists tend to be cessationists.

There are some Calvinist continuationists but they’re definitely a minority. And there are a lot of Calvinist theonomists, but I think NAR comes more from Pentecostalism.

 

[CopticChristian]

There are some Calvinist continuationists but they’re definitely a minority. And there are a lot of Calvinist theonomists, but I think NAR comes more from Pentecostalism.

christianity-guide.com/christianity/dominionism.htm

The above discusses Dominionism

Dominion Theology is a grouping of theological systems with the common belief that society should be governed exclusively by the law of God as codified in the Bible, to the exclusion of secular law. The two main streams of Dominion Theology are Christian Reconstructionism and Kingdom Now Theology. Though these two differ greatly in their general theological orientation (the first is strongly Reformed and Neo-Calvinistic, the second is Charismatic), they share a postmillennial vision in which the Kingdom of God will be established on Earth through political and (in some cases) even military means.

My understanding is that Rushdoony is the source of thought for this movement.

 

[00columcille00]

They are Protestant, Calvinist, Anti-Catholic and want to bring the OT laws into the present, such as execution of homosexual, adulters etc…

“Execution”?!?

Really? Can you supply a reference to support this statement?

Nothing I’ve seen would lead me to your conclusion. In fact, what I’ve seen leads to the opposite conclusion - that “none should perish.” They want to see all men saved.

The NAR is supposedly the fastest growing block within Christianity today.

youtube.com/watch?v=PHWyOz_SZCk

 

[CopticChristian]

“Execution”?!?

Really? Can you supply a reference to support this statement?

Nothing I’ve seen would lead me to your conclusion. In fact, what I’ve seen leads to the opposite conclusion - that “none should perish.” They want to see all men saved.

The NAR is supposedly the fastest growing block within Christianity today.

youtube.com/watch?v=PHWyOz_SZCk

opposingviews.com/i/politics/2012-election/lunatic-fringe-dominionism-must-be-taken-seriously

Sure, it’s tempting to dismiss dominionists as a marginalized lunatic fringe. After all, many of them do tend to take positions that are, to be blunt, really out there. For example, they would not only outlaw abortion, they would execute any woman who gets the procedure or doctor who performs one. They would also execute gays, adulterers, blasphemers and those who hold to “false” religions.

yuricareport.com/Dominionism/InvitationToAStoning.html

Ah, yes, accuracy does count. In a world run by Rushdoony followers, sots would escape capital punishment–which would make them happy exceptions indeed. Those who would face execution include not only gays but a very long list of others: blasphemers, heretics, apostate Christians, people who cursed or struck their parents, females guilty of “unchastity before marriage,” “incorrigible” juvenile delinquents, adulterers, and (probably) telephone psychics. And that’s to say nothing of murderers and those guilty of raping married women or “betrothed virgins.” Adulterers, among others, might meet their doom by being publicly stoned–a rather abrupt way for the Clinton presidency to end.

jewsonfirst.org/dominionism.html

Use the search engine “Dogpile”…enter Dominionism, Dominionism+Execution, Dominionism + Old Testament Law…

You’ll see the picture. The most radical change since the Protestant reformation…guess the Protestants aren’t done protesting…they are trying to continually establish themselves as the World Religion or you get executed. Sounds like a real Christian attitude.

 

[Contarini]

Demons are very legalistic.

No doubt. But Jesus isn’t. And Jesus is Lord–demons aren’t.

The demons’ understanding of what “works” to evict them is not really important if Jesus is Lord. Hence, your position appears to be that rare thing in my experience–a real, definable example of superstition.

Edwin