The New Fight for Marriage

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fix said:
Not a competition but an objective moral truth. I know the modern American mind wants every single issue to be morally equal but that just is not so.

Additionally, the relativists and homosexual apologists very much want to deflect away from the issue of “gay” marriage.
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If you had read the thread without a combative mindset, I think you would see that I have not attempted (and gone out of my way to make clear I was not attempting) to “deflect” anything. As it stands, you are arguing with nothing because I have already stated both are immoral and should not be legal. In any case, I feel that I am wasting data on my phone by continuing this thread, so I will recuse myself at this point. I read these forums to grow in my faith and knowledge, not set up straw men to knock down, as it seems some do.
 
Eric09 said:
If you had read the thread without a combative mindset, I think you would see that I have not attempted (and gone out of my way to make clear I was not attempting) to “deflect” anything. As it stands, you are arguing with nothing because I have already stated both are immoral and should not be legal. In any case, I feel that I am wasting data on my phone by continuing this thread, so I will recuse myself at this point. I read these forums to grow in my faith and knowledge, not set up straw men to knock down, as it seems some do.
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I was making a general statement not meaning you specifically. Instead of reading combat into my words why not look inward as to why you are so defensive?
 
Eric09 said:
Amen!! As a person in my mid twenties, I firmly believe that no-fault easy divorce is doing an incredible amount of harm to my generation. If marriage is nothing more than a statement of affectionate feelings, when hard times come, it’s natural to walk away and try again. There’s no sense of permanence regarding marriage anymore, and it is tragic. If it is this bad now, I cannot imagine what it will be like for the next generations, when marriage will be nothing more than a tax break and a way to share insurance. Which is what the current fight, if lost, will lead to. But no-fault divorce is just as damaging, if not more so.
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I agree with this. Divorce has been undermining marriage for a long time. So has contraception. Marriage is already all but dead, killed off by contraception, divorce, materialism, and sexual license. It had to reach a comatose state before gay marriage would even be an option. Gay marriage is simply the final break, definitively cutting off marriage from its roots and making it entirely meaningless. It doesn’t matter whether there are few or many homosexual marriages. It’s the final nail in the coffin. With it, marriage finally dies, and with it, our civilization.
 
marymary1975 said:
While is true that no-fault is damaging what you are missing here is that that no fault divorce and gay marriage are more linked than what you think. There is a saying people who don’t remember their history is condemned to repeat and that is what is happening here. The current actual movement for gay marriage is nothing but a continuation of the anti-life movement that started in 1950 by trying to introduce no-fault divorce. Exactly the same arguments that you hear now in favor of gay marriage and the same techniques are the same ones that were used to brainwash people into believing that no-fault divorce was ok. After they succeed with no-fault divorce they moved into contraception, abortion, radical feminism, then during the 80’s they went into marriage is not necessary cohabitation is the right thing, and now that they finally convinced many people that reproduction and sex are disassociated, that marriage is not that important, that heterosexual marriage is a mess, now they are going for gay marriage. The same arguments in favor of gay marriage were made over and over for no-fault divorce, abortion, cohabitation, etc. Don’t fall into the game that “gay marriage is only a small thing” because is not simply about two gays in love, is more than that, is a whole movement trying to poison society’s beliefs to destroy society from its very root.
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So where is all the outrage over no-fault divorce?

That’s my point, ask anybody on the street what the Catholic Church says about gay marriage and I’ll bet you will get the right answer. Ask the same question about no-fault divorce and I bet you get an answer about divorce being called something else in the church, but not that it’s not accepted.

The over abundance of outrage over gay marriage and the relative silence about divorce and the cheapening of the sacrament in other ways has done enough damage to our credibility so that nobody cares what we say about marriage at all.
 
Heterosexuals already ruined the institution of marriage.
 
The problem of gay marriage began when we started allowing gay people to adopt and get IVF. Divorce is an issue too. The social fabric is coming undone. My guess is we will either be destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah from the fires of our own lust or get it and move on. My guess is the former though…
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
Heterosexuals already ruined the institution of marriage.
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They devalued it, but that is repairable with time and effort. A return to Chirst and His teachings can reteach a generation the proper role of husband and wife. Your statement is often uttered as a way to almost claim “most heterosexual marriages are just as bad.” No, they are not.

Homosexual unions change the very definition that God created, and literally destroy what He intended. If marriage is not between a man and woman, all bets are off. There is little today as serious as the danger this poses to the fabric of society, as the Church emphasizes all the time.

If we want to stress the importance of sacramental marriage and the issue with no fault divorce, great. But the Church on any given day, and can only fight so battles at once. They have chosen the gravest issues to make their stand on. Not to mention, homosexuals have brought the lifestyle to the fore, not the Church.
 
silentfactor80 said:
The problem of gay marriage began when we started allowing gay people to adopt and get IVF. Divorce is an issue too. The social fabric is coming undone. My guess is we will either be destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah from the fires of our own lust or get it and move on. My guess is the former though…
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There were never rules against that AFAIK.
Frank_Drebin said:
They devalued it, but that is repairable with time and effort. A return to Chirst and His teachings can reteach a generation the proper role of husband and wife. Your statement is often uttered as a way to almost claim “most heterosexual marriages are just as bad.” No, they are not.

Homosexual unions change the very definition that God created, and literally destroy what He intended. If marriage is not between a man and woman, all bets are off. There is little today as serious as the danger this poses to the fabric of society, as the Church emphasizes all the time.

If we want to stress the importance of sacramental marriage and the issue with no fault divorce, great. But the Church on any given day, and can only fight so battles at once. They have chosen the gravest issues to make their stand on. Not to mention, homosexuals have brought the lifestyle to the fore, not the Church.
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Where did I say “most heterosexual marriages are just as bad”? My problem is that when no fault divorce was sweeping through the nation Catholics did not make a stand then and there against it, you see the thing is that was a sin many of them might fall victim to and so they didn’t want punishments for themselves, but when it comes to a sin they are unlikely commit then harsh punishments are just fine.

Between contraception/abortion and divorce the institution of marriage has been damaged to it’s very core.
 
Frank_Drebin said:
They devalued it, but that is repairable with time and effort. A return to Chirst and His teachings can reteach a generation the proper role of husband and wife. Your statement is often uttered as a way to almost claim “most heterosexual marriages are just as bad.” No, they are not.

Homosexual unions change the very definition that God created, and literally destroy what He intended. If marriage is not between a man and woman, all bets are off. There is little today as serious as the danger this poses to the fabric of society, as the Church emphasizes all the time.

If we want to stress the importance of sacramental marriage and the issue with no fault divorce, great. But the Church on any given day, and can only fight so battles at once. They have chosen the gravest issues to make their stand on. Not to mention, homosexuals have brought the lifestyle to the fore, not the Church.
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amen
 
JimG said:
I agree with this. Divorce has been undermining marriage for a long time. So has contraception. Marriage is already all but dead, killed off by contraception, divorce, materialism, and sexual license. It had to reach a comatose state before gay marriage would even be an option. Gay marriage is simply the final break, definitively cutting off marriage from its roots and making it entirely meaningless. It doesn’t matter whether there are few or many homosexual marriages. It’s the final nail in the coffin. With it, marriage finally dies, and with it, our civilization.
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Jim, I’m mostly in agreement with you (and similarly minded posters here) except for the last sentence. If we suppose the worst, are things really any worse than pre-Christian Rome? At the worst, so long as the Church holds to its beliefs, doesn’t there still remain a core of Christians among the heathens?

The question I ponder is, if that is the case, how can Christianity resurrect itself and reevangilize the world. In the Roman days, Christians came to be admired and emulated for, among other things, their big families.
 
_Abyssinia said:
Laura Bush and The Lie of Inevitability

christianpost.com/news/laura-bush-and-the-lie-of-inevitability-91242
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Great article. If there is one sentence that is key this is it: “Gay marriage remains stalled in deep-blue states.”

Advocates for homosexual marriage have made tremendous progress but mostly in the deep blue states and their momentum there may have led them to prematurely push the matter before the country.

What the article doesn’t mention is that they have done a superb job of brainswashing the young and it is there that the danger is greatest, even among otherwise orthodox Christians.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Jim, I’m mostly in agreement with you (and similarly minded posters here) except for the last sentence. If we suppose the worst, are things really any worse than pre-Christian Rome? At the worst, so long as the Church holds to its beliefs, doesn’t there still remain a core of Christians among the heathens?

The question I ponder is, if that is the case, how can Christianity resurrect itself and reevangilize the world. In the Roman days, Christians came to be admired and emulated for, among other things, their big families.
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I guess I’m old enough to be able to afford to be a pessimist, but I don’t advise giving up on civilization entirely. It’s true, there are many signs that we are headed for collapse, from the state of marriage, to the decline of fertility rates, to unsustainable national debts everywhere in Western Europe and the United States–the old offloading their bills onto the next generation. We have not yet, I think, reached the stage of collapse which preceded the collapse of the Roman Empire, but things seem to be headed in that direction.

When civilization broke down, the Church picked up the pieces. It will again. I’ve even read a non-Christian author who speaks about a new monastic culture to save what’s left of civilization, (by which he didn’t mean a religious order, of course.) But certainly the Church will find a way to re-establish a sane culture.

If I’m wrong, and I certainly hope I am, and we can be successful in actually reversing current trends, that would be even better. But it’s a long shot.
 
JimG said:
I guess I’m old enough to be able to afford to be a pessimist, but I don’t advise giving up on civilization entirely. It’s true, there are many signs that we are headed for collapse, from the state of marriage, to the decline of fertility rates, to unsustainable national debts everywhere in Western Europe and the United States–the old offloading their bills onto the next generation. We have not yet, I think, reached the stage of collapse which preceded the collapse of the Roman Empire, but things seem to be headed in that direction.

When civilization broke down, the Church picked up the pieces. It will again. I’ve even read a non-Christian author who speaks about a new monastic culture to save what’s left of civilization, (by which he didn’t mean a religious order, of course.) But certainly the Church will find a way to re-establish a sane culture.

If I’m wrong, and I certainly hope I am, and we can be successful in actually reversing current trends, that would be even better. But it’s a long shot.
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Allow me to suggest a unifying view: Things may get worse, they may get a lot worse. But no matter how deep the depression/collapse/whatever, there will always exist a core of sanity around the Church.

The most important question to ponder is how to carry yourself in this world and, especially, how to prepare your children for it. Unlike the Romans, modern secularists are especially adapt at seducing Christians. Even nominally Catholic universities are not very reliable in this respect.

The more academic question is how bad things will get before the tide turns. I think it’s fine to be pessimistic about that so long as you don’t lose hope in an eventual turn of the tide.
 
SamH said:
It’s already a loss. Next up, how to marry your dog.
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While gay marriage is a logical thing after no fault divorce, lack of adultery laws and contraception/abortion marrying your dog does not qualify as a rational thing to proceed from it.
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
While gay marriage is a logical thing after no fault divorce, lack of adultery laws and contraception/abortion marrying your dog does not qualify as a rational thing to proceed from it.
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I’m putting my money on polygamy.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
I’m putting my money on polygamy.
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Polygamy may very well be next. I think that sanctioned pederasty may follow.

I see many threads where gay marriage is argued, and its proponents invariably say something like “why are you picking on gays? Heterosexuals have already destroyed marriage.”

And they are right. It is true that same sex marriage must of necessity deprive a child of either a mom or a dad. But so does divorce. So does serial monogamy. Cohabitation deprives children of a real family. Fornication and adultery deprive sex of meaning. Children live now with the awareness that their family can be broken up at the whim of either parent. Contraception deprives children of brothers and sisters. Abortion kills off a fourth of their siblings.

So it’s not that same sex unions will destroy marriage. Same sex unions are thinkable only because marriage has already been destroyed.

Few even wish to commit to traditional marriage vows: for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, till death shall rip us apart.

Not at all. Now, we prefer, for better, for richer, and in good health and ‘as long as love shall last.’ Forget that sickness and poorer and till death stuff. That might cause us to bail.

Now, marriage is a natural institution, but the natural law argument no longer holds water, because people want what they want, natural or not. It’s about personal rights, not love. It’s about fulfillment, not sacrifice for another.

But because marriage IS a natural institution, it will eventually be restored. I just don’t think it will be able to restore itself until civilizations has gone through the next dark age which has been brought on by the dissolution of the family.
 
All I have to say is to see whats is coming look at the GLSEN’s reading material for kids. This article appeared on Gateway Pundit awhile ago. Scroll down to the book list and you will see it links you directly to GLSEN page. The GLSEN says the following about its book:
“All BookLink items are reviewed by GLSEN staff for quality and appropriateness of content. However, some titles for adolescent readers contain mature themes. We recommend that adults selecting books for youth review content for suitability. The editorial and customer reviews listed at Amazon.com often provide information on mature content.”
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Some of those books have pedophilia in them…
 
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