L
LCMS_No_More
Guest
Does anyone know when will we know whether or not the Vatican has approved the updated Mass Translation recently approved by the USCCB and when it will be implemented once approved?
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
According to a Press Release of the Vox Clara committee of 1 June 2006: “A draft timeline for completion of the Committee’s work on the translation of the Roman Missal was approved, which projects final consideration of the ICEL texts by the end of 2007.” (From vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20060601_press-release-vc_en.html ).
In their Press Relase of 27 October 2006 they have: “The Committee appreciated that ICEL is maintaining its increasingly ambitious schedule for completion of translations of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia.” (From whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2006/10/vox-clara-rides-again.html ).
Even if the Roman Missal translation is approved, how long will it take to publish? One of the changes expected is the reply “And also with you.” to “And with your spirit.”.
What should happen for the Rite of Distributing Holy Communion outside of Mass. The approved translation is “And also with you.” (Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass, published by E.J. Dwyer, Sydney, 1975, ISBN 0-85574-401-4, page 13. Also in The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, page 649).
Perhaps they will say we need a new translation of “Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass” before we introduce a changed translation of the Roman Missal. Perhaps 2 years extra.
The same for the Liturgy of the Hours. It has “And also with you” for the blessing at the end. Approve and publish new translations of these. Perhaps 10 years extra.
The same for the Book of Blessings. Change “And also with you”. Approve and publish a new translation with new adaptations. Perhaps 5 years extra. In Australia there is not yet an approved translation of this 1984 Latin edition after 22 years.
The could be similar issues with other liturgical books that have been published.
So I think the earliest to make the change in Mass is 2008. But I can easily image it will be 2010, 2020, 2060, 2100 or 2200.
In their Press Relase of 27 October 2006 they have: “The Committee appreciated that ICEL is maintaining its increasingly ambitious schedule for completion of translations of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia.” (From whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2006/10/vox-clara-rides-again.html ).
Even if the Roman Missal translation is approved, how long will it take to publish? One of the changes expected is the reply “And also with you.” to “And with your spirit.”.
What should happen for the Rite of Distributing Holy Communion outside of Mass. The approved translation is “And also with you.” (Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass, published by E.J. Dwyer, Sydney, 1975, ISBN 0-85574-401-4, page 13. Also in The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, page 649).
Perhaps they will say we need a new translation of “Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass” before we introduce a changed translation of the Roman Missal. Perhaps 2 years extra.
The same for the Liturgy of the Hours. It has “And also with you” for the blessing at the end. Approve and publish new translations of these. Perhaps 10 years extra.
The same for the Book of Blessings. Change “And also with you”. Approve and publish a new translation with new adaptations. Perhaps 5 years extra. In Australia there is not yet an approved translation of this 1984 Latin edition after 22 years.
The could be similar issues with other liturgical books that have been published.
So I think the earliest to make the change in Mass is 2008. But I can easily image it will be 2010, 2020, 2060, 2100 or 2200.
M
mosher
Guest
Also there is the issue of the proper translation of pro multis which may be an issue that can hold up the approval for years.
I doubt, however, that the issue cited by JL (above) concerning the other titles found in Rites will hold up the approval of the Missale. This has not been the case in the past and each has been done under separate directives. Usually such common liturgical phrases are addressed in an “insert” authorized by competent authority making the changes without approving a new rite per each title.
Of course I have a friend that works for Vox Clara so I should just email him. If I get a response worth noting I will post it.
I doubt, however, that the issue cited by JL (above) concerning the other titles found in Rites will hold up the approval of the Missale. This has not been the case in the past and each has been done under separate directives. Usually such common liturgical phrases are addressed in an “insert” authorized by competent authority making the changes without approving a new rite per each title.
Of course I have a friend that works for Vox Clara so I should just email him. If I get a response worth noting I will post it.
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
Can you give me an example of a phrase being changed to an approved liturgical book?Also there is the issue of the proper translation of pro multis which may be an issue that can hold up the approval for years.
I doubt, however, that the issue cited by JL (above) concerning the other titles found in Rites will hold up the approval of the Missale. This has not been the case in the past and each has been done under separate directives. Usually such common liturgical phrases are addressed in an “insert” authorized by competent authority making the changes without approving a new rite per each title.
Of course I have a friend that works for Vox Clara so I should just email him. If I get a response worth noting I will post it.
Who would be the competent authority to make the change?
My understanding of the process of a getting an approved translation is to get more than two thirds of the bishops in the Conference of Bishops to vote for it, then get the recognito of the Congregation for Divine Worhsip and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Then there can be pulbication and introduction.
I do not know of another process.
M
mosher
Guest
Yes, but there are interim permissions that can be given by the Bishop’s Conference as confirmed by the Holy See. It is hard for me to think of an example but if I remember correctly such a circumvention happened during the time between the First and Second Typical Editions. I have also seen it in the Pontifical. That usually is the last to get translated and revised so when the Church is doing one thing in all the other forms of liturgy and formal para-liturgy it is necessary to place an insert in the proper areas. Maybe the most ready example is the insert that goes in the Liturgy of the Hours currently that reflects changes to the calendar that are not reflected in the books themselves.Can you give me an example of a phrase being changed to an approved liturgical book?
Who would be the competent authority to make the change?
My understanding of the process of a getting an approved translation is to get more than two thirds of the bishops in the Conference of Bishops to vote for it, then get the recognito of the Congregation for Divine Worhsip and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Then there can be pulbication and introduction.
I do not know of another process.
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
I understand for a new saint there will be an additon to the Roman Missal and Liturgy of the Hours. A supplementary booklet would be made for this.
But the difficulty I have is changing the approved translation, without the the approval process. The Book of Blessings has the reply “And also with you.” It is the approved translation for the USA. The only process I am aware of changing the correct reply to “And with your Spirit” is for there to be a new approved translation of that book.
But the difficulty I have is changing the approved translation, without the the approval process. The Book of Blessings has the reply “And also with you.” It is the approved translation for the USA. The only process I am aware of changing the correct reply to “And with your Spirit” is for there to be a new approved translation of that book.
M
mosher
Guest
Yes officially you are correct unless as I said a separate instruction is provided. However, in practical application it won’t matter. All para-liturgical forms always follow the Mass in practice.I understand for a new saint there will be an additon to the Roman Missal and Liturgy of the Hours. A supplementary booklet would be made for this.
But the difficulty I have is changing the approved translation, without the the approval process. The Book of Blessings has the reply “And also with you.” It is the approved translation for the USA. The only process I am aware of changing the correct reply to “And with your Spirit” is for there to be a new approved translation of that book.
N
Nicholas_Larkin
Guest
Phrases used in Communion Serives, or whatever liturgical texts follow that of the Roman Missal. If the Roman Missal says “The Lord be with you, and with your spirit.” then so does the other texts. It is not one says one, and the other another. Now at first one will just have to assume this until latter when these books are republished. But this should be no problem. It is a matter of reversing a habit. May God bless you!
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
The ceremonies in the Book of Blessings are not para-liturgies. They are official liturgies in an official liturgical book, that should be faithfully followed – using the approved translation.Yes officially you are correct unless as I said a separate instruction is provided. However, in practical application it won’t matter. All para-liturgical forms always follow the Mass in practice.
M
mosher
Guest
Para-liturgical things include that which is not a Sacrament or not in either volumes of Rites if I am not mistaken.The ceremonies in the Book of Blessings are not para-liturgies. They are official liturgies in an official liturgical book, that should be faithfully followed – using the approved translation.
B
Brendan
Guest
No, a Liturgy is a public prayer of the Church as a whole.Para-liturgical things include that which is not a Sacrament or not in either volumes of Rites if I am not mistaken.
The Liturgy of the Hours is an excellent example. It is a liturgy that is distinct from the Mass
M
mosher
Guest
Yes, I am aware of that but the Book of Blessings contains quite a bit of things that are not liturgies as such. The Book of Blessings I believe contains both.No, a Liturgy is a public prayer of the Church as a whole.
The Liturgy of the Hours is an excellent example. It is a liturgy that is distinct from the Mass
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
Dennis Smolarski has a definition.
“PARALITURGY … - The name sometimes given to a religious gathering or service that is not found in any official liturgical book. A common example is a “holy hour” that includes hymns, prayers and sermons.”
(Dennis Smolarski, Liturgical Literarcy, Paulist Press, 1990, page 162.)
Obviously with this understanding of the term, nothing in the Book of Blessings is a paraliturgy.
“PARALITURGY … - The name sometimes given to a religious gathering or service that is not found in any official liturgical book. A common example is a “holy hour” that includes hymns, prayers and sermons.”
(Dennis Smolarski, Liturgical Literarcy, Paulist Press, 1990, page 162.)
Obviously with this understanding of the term, nothing in the Book of Blessings is a paraliturgy.
M
mosher
Guest
Sounds good to me. Thanks for the correction.Dennis Smolarski has a definition.
“PARALITURGY … - The name sometimes given to a religious gathering or service that is not found in any official liturgical book. A common example is a “holy hour” that includes hymns, prayers and sermons.”
(Dennis Smolarski, Liturgical Literarcy, Paulist Press, 1990, page 162.)
Obviously with this understanding of the term, nothing in the Book of Blessings is a paraliturgy.
A
AlexV
Guest
I am appalled that someone would be pedantic enough to argue that if the new English Missal translation reads “And with your spirit” we would then have to wait for specific approval of every last liturgical book before making such an obvious and easy change to the English “And also with you” in any number of other books.
Liturgy is about quite a bit more than hyperrubricism and citing a document before agreeing to breathe during a liturgical act.
If the English Missal is approved with “And with your spirit”, obviously every occurrence of the Dominus vobiscum dialogue in the liturgy would then be altered in English translation.
Liturgy is about quite a bit more than hyperrubricism and citing a document before agreeing to breathe during a liturgical act.
If the English Missal is approved with “And with your spirit”, obviously every occurrence of the Dominus vobiscum dialogue in the liturgy would then be altered in English translation.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.