The new old Tridentine Mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter janessa1850
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hold it right there!!!

No Mass is supposed to be meditated through, no matter what the old prayer books say. Rather, Mass is supposed to be actively participated in, even if all you are doing is attentively listening.
What does that mean? Do you equate “active participation” with singing peppy songs, standing up, sitting down, kneeling, standing up, etc? Does ‘active participation’ mean laity coming out of the congregation to perform the readings, offer the ‘sacrifices of gifts’, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, etc? Can you ‘actively participate’ in the Traditional Latin Mass that served us very well for centuries?
 
Hold it right there!!!

No Mass is supposed to be meditated through, no matter what the old prayer books say. Rather, Mass is supposed to be actively participated in, even if all you are doing is attentively listening.
I’m not sure that’s exactly correct, but this may be a difference of the way people understand meditation… Of course we shouldn’t be meditating on something else during Mass, but I think fully participating in Mass (even by simply listening) can be the same thing as meditating on the Sacred Mysteries of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass itself.

And no, I don’t mean by jumping up and down and singing “peppy” songs, I’m talking about uniting ourselves internally to the Sacrifice that is taking place, as we indicate externally when we sing the Great Amen after the Eucharistic Prayer (at least in the OF).
 
I still don’t get it. I’ve seen people forget to reverence the tablernacle after they bow to the altar and that gets to me.

If I went to see a relic on display, would they put the relic off in a corner and the table it had sat on in the main area?
 
If you liked the Tridentine Mass then you should try a Chrysostom Liturgy it predates even the Tridentine.
 
Maybe I should explain what my meaning of meditation was. Because it was my first Latin Mass and much of the time I could not hear what the priest was saying, I used the missals we were given (Latin on one side, English on the other, with beautiful art photos). I tried to guess where we were in the Mass. I said to myself the Latin words which I was familiar with. During the confession, I prayed a silent confession of my sins to God. We all joined in on the Kyrie. When it was time for the Gloria (unfortunately there was no choir), I sung the Gloria that I know to myself, while it was being spoken in Latin (hardly audible) by the priest. When I couldn’t hear at all or follow where we were, I looked at the art and meditated upon them (the crucifixion, the angel Gabriel, etc.). The sermon was wonderful-I actually took a few notes. I also took notes of something I felt God was telling me during the early part of the Mass. I got totally lost in between the credo and Agnus Dei because I simply could not hear hardly anything. So I read one of the prayers before communion and meditated upon that. Then I meditated upon the mystery of Holy Communion and how it could possibly happen. For communion, there were kneelers, since our church removed their altar rail in the 80s. Our tabernacle is still front and center, mounted upon the old altar against the wall, thank God. We received only the wafer, and from the priest himself, while kneeling. It was quite nice, although I missed the wine.
 
At that point, the ‘wafer’ and the ‘wine’ are actually the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Communion under one species, obviously not fully Traditional though. I think there are better representations of that Mass Jan that you might feel the fully Holiness of it, think of that as just a taste of what is being lost to the Church today. I couldn’t possibly know what you felt of even what God may have been imparting on you of course, but perhaps could it be that is how our worships should be focused?
 
Bl. Pope John XXIII … praised Latin highly (as a unifying force, among others) and called for its retention in the Church’s liturgies in his 1959 Apostolic Letter Veterum Sapientia.
Sorry to nitpick, but for sake of those trying to find it, I should note that Veterum Sapientia was a 1962 Apostolic Constitution.
 
//Do you equate “active participation” with singing peppy songs, standing up, sitting down, kneeling, standing up, etc?//

**And do you not think there is a via media between what you describe and simply being lost in your own prayers while the Eucharistic Sacrifice goes on in front of you while you’re actually detached from it?

Actually, singing peppy songs, standing up, sitting down, kneeling, standing up, etc, if this is what the body is assigned to be doing at the Euchrist is EXACTLY what is meant by “active participation.” Indulging in one’s own personal devotions instead is actually causing a schism in the Church.

And except for “peppy songs”, those at the EF do exactly the same things: stand up, sit down, kneel, etc.

In any case, we are supposed to attend to the public prayers, either by listening attentively or following a translation in a book if necessary. We’re not simply supposed to do our own thing while the worship of God goes on around us or in front of us.**
 
Active participation is not necessarily increased by standing up and sittting down. There is no standing at the EF I attend. We sit for the readings and homily and kneel for everything else. Changing the Mass to include physical activity hasn’t worked for us well, as the number of Catholics walking through the church doors on Sunday mornings are quite diminished. Three out of four Catholics don’t participate at all anymore.
 
Active participation is not necessarily increased by standing up and sittting down. There is no standing at the EF I attend. We sit for the readings and homily and kneel for everything else. Changing the Mass to include physical activity hasn’t worked for us well, as the number of Catholics walking through the church doors on Sunday mornings are quite diminished. Three out of four Catholics don’t participate at all anymore.
You don’t even stand for the Gospel?

And if you are going to imply that “adding” physical activity by the people at Mass is what drove people out of the Church, I’m afraid you’ll have to convince me better.

1958’s De Musica Sacra 22b, “The participation of the congregation becomes more complete, however, when, in addition to this interior disposition, exterior participation is manifested by external acts, such as bodily position (kneeling, standing, sitting), ceremonial signs, and especially responses, prayers, and singing.”
 
Whoops, sorry about that, of course we stand for the Gospel.

My point is adding the additional standing, sitting, reciting, etc, hasn’t done much good for the Church. Further, ‘active participation’ is now being explained as paying attention, not merely getting up and down, singing peppy tunes, shaking hands, etc. I’m curious to know how many people remember which Gospel reading was read, what Father’s homily was about, which Eucharistic Prayer was said, etc after their Sunday obligation. All surveys point to the fact that actual participation in the Church is down significantly since the new Mass was invented. Therefore, it seems the physical ‘active participation’ inserted into the OF has not achieved what it intended.

Physical gestures are indeed important and have a rightful place in our liturgy. At the NO Mass I attended this past Sunday the majority of people didn’t genuflect before getting into their pew and not one person I observed bowed prior to receiving Holy Communion. Many people walked away with the Body of Christ in their hand putting it into their mouth mid-stride. I don’t know if anyone else prayed before or after Mass but I had a difficult time with all the chatter that was going on around me.

Conversely, at the old new Tridentine Mass people aren’t getting up and down as much, nor reciting the prayers (i.e. Gloria, Sanctus, Agnes Dei) but everyone genuflects, kneels for Holy Communion, and respects the concept of reverent silence in the nave. I actively participate during Mass by following along in my missal. There are more prayers in the EF and the emphasis is on Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary, something diminished in the OF. Thus, I personally feel as though I’ve prayed the Mass and worshipped Christ on the Cross, not merely attended my weekly obligation.
 
What does that mean? Do you equate “active participation” with singing peppy songs, standing up, sitting down, kneeling, standing up, etc? Does ‘active participation’ mean laity coming out of the congregation to perform the readings, offer the ‘sacrifices of gifts’, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, etc? Can you ‘actively participate’ in the Traditional Latin Mass that served us very well for centuries?
I think you need to go back and re-read what Fr. Brendan wrote.

The Mass IS meant to be actively particiapted in, in precisely the way Fr. Brendan outlined.

We listen attentively to the Readings, Gospel and Homily ( there we are to meditate on those words in the precribed moments of silence, so yes Father, there IS a place for meditiation as well)

Then, during the Eucharistic Canon, we are to offer ourselves, fully and completely, as a Sacrifice along with (but distinct from) the Sacrifice of Christ that the priest is offering us on our behalf.

Fr. Brendan said nothing that Pope Benedict didn’t say in his book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”
 
Further, ‘active participation’ is now being explained as paying attention, not merely getting up and down, singing peppy tunes, shaking hands, etc.
Some people (clergy among) decided to wrest “active participation” away from its traditional meaning and confuse it with “activity” rather than “authenticity” and “reality”. It’s taken a while to flush that artificiality and discontinuity out of the system.
All surveys point to the fact that actual participation in the Church is down significantly since the new Mass was invented. Therefore, it seems the physical ‘active participation’ inserted into the OF has not achieved what it intended.
I agree that mere physical action is of no avail. But that was not what the Church called for. When you speak of “physical ‘active participation’ inserted into the OF,” do you mean people’s insertion of physical activity, or the liturgy itself?
Physical gestures are indeed important and have a rightful place in our liturgy. At the NO Mass I attended this past Sunday the majority of people didn’t genuflect before getting into their pew and not one person I observed bowed prior to receiving Holy Communion…
That is very disappointing. I wouldn’t be surprised if the priest himself did not bow during the Creed. Pastors need to teach their flocks about these things, because so many of them have been brought up not knowing a thing about them!
Conversely, at the old new Tridentine Mass people aren’t getting up and down as much, nor reciting the prayers (i.e. Gloria, Sanctus, Agnes Dei) but everyone genuflects, kneels for Holy Communion, and respects the concept of reverent silence in the nave.
It would be great if you all would do both, the exterior participation (vocal as well) with the internal participation.

“Filled as We are with a most ardent desire to see the true Christian spirit flourish in every respect and be preserved by all the faithful, We deem it necessary to provide before anything else for the sanctity and dignity of the temple, in which the faithful assemble for no other object than that of acquiring this spirit from its foremost and indispensable font, which is the active participation in the most holy mysteries and in the public and solemn prayer of the Church. … Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.” (Pope Pius X, Tra la sollecitudini)

“In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it. It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies, or when pious sodalities take part with the clergy in a procession, they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the Liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed. If this is done, then it will no longer happen that the people either make no answer at all to the public prayers – whether in the language of the Liturgy or in the vernacular – or at best utter the responses in a low and subdued manner.” (Pope Pius XI, Divini Cultus)

“[L]ocal Ordinaries and the other pastors should take great care that the faithful from their earliest years should learn at least the easier and more frequently used Gregorian melodies, and should know how to employ them in the sacred liturgical rites, so that in this way also the unity and the universality of the Church may shine forth more powerfully every day.” (Pope Pius XII, Musicae Sacrae)

“Interior participation is the most important; this consists in paying devout attention, and in lifting up the heart to God in prayer. … The participation of the congregation becomes more complete, however, when, in addition to this interior disposition, exterior participation is manifested by external acts, such as bodily position (kneeling, standing, sitting), ceremonial signs, and especially responses, prayers, and singing. The Supreme Pontiff Pius XII, in his encyclical on the sacred liturgy, Mediator Dei, recommended this form of participation. … When the papal documents treat of ‘active participation’ they are speaking of this general participation, of which the outstanding example is the priest, and his ministers who serve at the altar with the proper interior dispositions, and carefully observe the rubrics, and ceremonies. Active participation is perfect when “sacramental” participation is included. … Since adequate instruction is necessary before the faithful can intelligently, and actively participate in the Mass, it will help to note here a very wise law enacted by the Council of Trent: …” (Sacred Congregation for Rites under Pope Pius XII, De Musica Sacra)

“This [full, conscious and active] participation should be above all internal, in the sense that by it the faithful join their mind to what they pronounce or hear, and cooperate with heavenly grace, [but] must be, on the other hand, external also, that is, such as to show the internal participation by gestures and bodily attitudes, by the acclamations, responses and singing. The faithful should also be taught to unite themselves interiorly to what the ministers or choir sing, so that by listening to them they may raise their minds to God.” (Sacred Congregation of Rites under Pope Paul VI, Musicam Sacram)
 
IFr. Brendan said nothing that Pope Benedict didn’t say in his book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”
I suspect you are correct in Fr. Brendan’s understanding of ‘active participation’. However, I suggest he needs to re-read the quote he responded to. It seems he took the word ‘meditative’ to mean intently distracted and I don’t believe that’s what the member meant.

In my experience it is easy to enter and stay in a state of prayerful meditation in the EF. With the increased reverence, prayers, silence, and emphasis on the Cross, one can more easily contemplate Christ at Calvary. Of course it’s just my opinion, but I find the OF’s standing, sitting, verbalizing, hymns, laity participation to be a distraction. The OF has more of an emphasis on communal supper than Sacrifice at Calvary. Consider that in the OF immediately after the Agnes Dei (one of the most solemn prayer in our faith) we are to break away from our focus on Christ and shake hands with our neighbours. Even the architecture of post-V2 churches takes the focus off Christ and onto each other.

We’d be a lot better off if “Spirit of the Liturgy” was incorporated fully into our parishes.
 
Some people (clergy among) decided to wrest “active participation” away from its traditional meaning and confuse it with “activity” rather than “authenticity” and “reality”. It’s taken a while to flush that artificiality and discontinuity out of the system.

I agree that mere physical action is of no avail. But that was not what the Church called for. When you speak of “physical ‘active participation’ inserted into the OF,” do you mean people’s insertion of physical activity, or the liturgy itself?
I agree that ‘active participation’ has been misinterpreted and/or misapplied. The concept seems to be used as laity actions instead of congregational focus. Lectors, announcers, cantors, shaking hands, etc are all brought forth under this justification. I have often been at a Mass with under twenty people and yet, an EMHC is deployed.

The EF could perhaps use more ‘active participation’ but not at the expense of breaking the attention (meditative even) away from the Sacrifice at Calvary.

Pope Benedict is guiding us to a proper interpretation of V2 documents and perhaps we’ll restore ‘active participation’ to what the Church teaches as you have so generously provided.
 
So you are bowing to a table? An inanimate object? I prefer to bow to the tabernacle where our Lord lies.
From the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Syro-Maronite Farewell to the Altar
Remain in peace, O Altar of God.
May the offering that I have taken from you
be for the remission of my debts
and the pardon of my sins
and may it obtain for me
that I may stand before the tribunal of Christ
without condemnation and without confusion.
I do not know if I will have the opportunity
to return and offer another sacrifice upon you.
Protect me, O Lord,
and preserve your holy Church as the way to truth and salvation.
Amen.
 
The EF could perhaps use more ‘active participation’ but not at the expense of breaking the attention (meditative even) away from the Sacrifice at Calvary.
Certainly. The purpose of external “active participation” is not to distract attention but rather to manifest the interior devotion in a liturgically appropriate way.
Pope Benedict is guiding us to a proper interpretation of V2 documents and perhaps we’ll restore ‘active participation’ to what the Church teaches as you have so generously provided.
Amen to that!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top