The new religion

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So if you have Korzybski then you will understand that this is the stepping stone to NLP and Neurosemantics. You may want to look into L. Michael Hall “The Users Manual of the Brain” Vol I & II. You would then understand more of what you are talking about.

I have no time now to read Wilber. What is this disease that he formulates as a paradigm?

You may want to understand that as a physician I take issue with the notion of disease being tossed around. In other words is it a disease you speak of or some sort of nominalization by someone that something exists “like a disease”. I am not fond of the DSM, nor is William Glasser, MD., author of Reality Therapy and Choice Theory. I find that this paradigm is not in keeping with what is out there and exists as a construct that in my opinion is harmful.🙂
Thanks for the references. I am a budding certified NLP practitioner and have some idea of what all that is about, despite needing to add those two volumes to my library.

I’m sorry that you don’t have time to read Wilber, but I’m sure that your practice and other matters keep you plate very full. Thanks for the services you are performing!

It is more that I have deduced from his four quadrant paradigm that we are in a public state of mental disease, having abandoned the depth considerations available to us as humans in favor of arguing appearances and exteriors. It would be silly for me to try to be simplistic about it here, so if you nave a moment some time, go to rationalspirituality.com/articles/Ken_Wilber_4_Qudrants.htm
 
Thanks for the references. I am a budding certified NLP practitioner and have some idea of what all that is about, despite needing to add those two volumes to my library.

rationalspirituality.com/articles/Ken_Wilber_4_Qudrants.htm
You may be interested in reading L. Michael Hall “Movie Mind” an introduction to Neurosemantics. It is an easy read and explains what may be the next step to understanding beyond NLP as it concerns communication. In a nutshell how we picture things and think, ie in movies. For instance think of what you did yesterday and after you do you will realize that it was not a bunch of words you imagined, it was a movie. Our minds conjure up movies and it is those movies that we can recreate, change, etc.

I spent a year at SWIHA

swiha.edu/

I encountered many people looking for spiritual life outside of the norm of Christian thought. They talk of Spirit, the Cosmos, enlightenment; Shamans, The Universe and I bit my tongue with my beliefs yet was able to see that all these people are looking for God yet not calling what they are looking for is God. They have the same spiritual thirst any of us has but give it different names. They yearn for honesty, ethics, and everything we call love of neighbor.

I am a student of thought. I am also expert in record review and revealing types of thinking. I have a BS in Zoology and learned to speak Evolution although I did not believe in it. I muse at the Protestants that see Evolution as the enemy to be fought with the Bible, a la Kurt Cameron

wayofthemaster.com/

Essentially Calvinists

And this book, the Evidence Bible.

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_Bible:_Irrefutable_Evidence_for_the_Thinking_Mind

One thing I have discovered is that by listening and reading through material you will discover if there is clarity or there is not. When I hear and read Wilber I don’t find clarity. He reminds me of Magister Ludi, the Glass bead game. I am confused and the only way to not be confused is to try to make sense of the paradigm and he is the master and soon I am the disciple but to what end. I don’t see that it solves a problem or helps me understand anything.

Then after reading and listening to him talk I found this…
And in the highest reaches of evolution, maybe, just maybe, an individual’s consciousness does indeed touch infinity—a total embrace of the entire Kosmos
— Ken Wilber, A Brief History of Everything, 42–3
I am not alone is seeing that chance and natural selection by themselves are not enough to account for the emergence that we see in evolution.
Ken Wilber, "Re: Some Criticisms of My Understanding of Evolution
He believes in evolution. I suggest you take a look at what Korzybski says. Plants bind energy, Animals bind energy and space and Humans bind energy, space and time. The time binding is the key. In other words we take information from the past and bring it to the present so we do no have to reinvent the wheel. Every generation does not have to get another Bill Gates or Steve Jobs to create a computer. We just build on past information or bind time. Now this correlates with Oral Tradition. Protestants you can see are out of synch because they routinely reinvent the wheel and have to read into the Bible what it is they are to do. I have met too many Protestants that have to decide for themselves if they should baptize babies. What nonsense.

So I have found solace in looking at the information of the OHCAC and see all the documents and thoughts do as Korzybski says and bind time. I don’t believe that we evolve in our minds we just keep gathering information that is built on from the past and put it to use. Motion is ambulation, to wheels, to automobiles, to planes etc. It is still just motion.

So here is what I found that is ultra important and useful…Paul says this in the introduction of the letter to the Romans.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
We should be able to look in the world and see what God wants us to know about Him. Now check this out. I have pointed out that at SWIHA I see the same thirst for what we take for granted. They know and recognize something that we call God and Jesus and Church but with a different understanding however it is what they see. God reveals Himself and they see the map as they filter it. Recall from NLP that the filters of communication are distortion, deletion and generalization.

So here is what I have found. Wilber makes for difficult understanding as far as his map is concerned and does not provide clarity. It also does not coincide with what I know and see in the Church. General Semantics NLP and Neurosemantics on the other hand correlate well with what I see in the Church.

Recall that I said that L. Michael Hall wrote “movie mind”…wow, what a discovery, our minds create movies and that is how we understand and how we generate thoughts.

Remember the Master of communication was Jesus….He created our means of communication. Recall in NLP we reframe. Jesus routinely reframed. The Pharisees said this and he would answer you say…and I say…He used what we call NLP.

Movie mind, new discovery, I don’t think so…Jesus taught in parables because He knew how our minds worked and so he created little movies for us to learn.

This I find useful…
 
You may be interested in reading L. Michael Hall “Movie Mind” an introduction to Neurosemantics.
Yes, this is so. When we do an assessment of the coding used by a traveler (I feel that the people I meet with are “travelers” using their :maps") in an NLP session, we look at the modalities and filters of the movie they have made of an experience. Those can be worked with.
I spent a year at SWIHA
Looks like a fascinating place!
I encountered many people looking for spiritual life outside of the norm of Christian thought … They yearn for honesty, ethics, and everything we call love of neighbor.
Why would they not? Are we not all made in the image and likeness of God? 🙂
I am a student of thought. I am also expert in record review and revealing types of thinking. I have a BS in Zoology and learned to speak Evolution although I did not believe in it. I muse at the Protestants that see Evolution as the enemy to be fought with the Bible, a la Kurt Cameron
Yes, I see that you are very astute and very well educated. You have much in your mental library that can provide navigational aid in the world of paradigms presented to us by the world.

For my part, I am a student of awareness, that which, it could be said, is the vessel of thought in both senses of the word. While it is useful in many regards to manipulate thoughts, one has to ask “what holds these thoughts that they can so readily be moved about with the resulting changes in behavior?” We can notice, e.g, that while thoughts and attiudes might change, there is never a change in the understanding that I am “I.” To me that is ultimately fascinating.
Then after reading and listening to him talk I found this…(quotes)
He believes in evolution. I suggest you take a look at what Korzybski says. Plants bind energy, Animals bind energy and space and Humans bind energy, space and time. The time binding is the key. In other words we take information from the past and bring it to the present so we do no have to reinvent the wheel. Every generation does not have to get another Bill Gates or Steve Jobs to create a computer. We just build on past information or bind time. Now this correlates with Oral Tradition.
So in this regard you agree with Wilber as well, as he pretty much spells that out.

One thing I have discovered is that by listening and reading through material you will discover if there is clarity or there is not. When I hear and read Wilber I don’t find clarity. He reminds me of Magister Ludi, the Glass bead game. I am confused and the only way to not be confused is to try to make sense of the paradigm and he is the master and soon I am the disciple but to what end. I don’t see that it solves a problem or helps me understand anything.Yes, I can understand why that might happen. It is one of the reasons I try to read and converse about ideas from many perspectives, so at least I can be familiar with the basic ideas that are on the table. A very interesting lesson came to me about this from a friend who was in a group working with a book called Basic Self Knowledge.

It seems that an inventor, someone who was at a genius level IQ, wished to join the group. He was told, OK, but read the book first and come back and tell us what you read. So he did that, and he was told–“go read the book.” Long story short, and I don’t know where he from he mustered such persistence, he ended up reading that (short) book 26 times before he reported back, “OK, my own filters were in the way of seeing wht he was actually saying. I don’t get it in some ways, but I’m ready to look for clarity because it is so darned interesting what I think I see.”

That is extreme, of course, but such examples abound in my life as experiences and stories I’ve heard. It was, in fact, a radical shift in awareness precipitated by a sort of accident that so astonishingly changed my world view in a flash that I started to be interested in religion and philosophy as phenomena after having a very strong grounding in Catholic theology through my parochial and high school years.

All that is to say that after all those decades, including reading mystics, contemplatives, Saints ans scholars, I found Wilber to be pellucidly clear and spot on. (continued)
 
(continued)
Protestants you can see are out of synch because they routinely reinvent the wheel and have to read into the Bible what it is they are to do. I have met too many Protestants that have to decide for themselves if they should baptize babies. What nonsense.
So I have found solace in looking at the information of the OHCAC and see all the documents and thoughts do as Korzybski says and bind time. I don’t believe that we evolve in our minds we just keep gathering information that is built on from the past and put it to use. Motion is ambulation, to wheels, to automobiles, to planes etc. It is still just motion.
And many would contend, I think, that evolution is just motion. I myslef do not “believe” in evolution as a named theory in all its aspects. Yet there is some sort of change factor involved, my understanding of which I won’t go into here. But I completely agree that reinventing the wheel is a waste of time when time binding is a far more efficient way of accumulating culture. We only need to be able to step outside that a bit and have some ability to exercise a modicum of critical analysis, as much on the world/cultural level as in the lab, the office, confessional, or in the examination room
So here is what I found that is ultra important and useful…Paul says this in the introduction of the letter to the Romans.
We should be able to look in the world and see what God wants us to know about Him. Now check this out. I have pointed out that at SWIHA I see the same thirst for what we take for granted. They know and recognize something that we call God and Jesus and Church but with a different understanding however it is what they see. God reveals Himself and they see the map as they filter it. Recall from NLP that the filters of communication are distortion, deletion and generalization.
Yes, Paul had some filters removed, eh? 🙂
So here is what I have found. Wilber makes for difficult understanding as far as his map is concerned and does not provide clarity. It also does not coincide with what I know and see in the Church. General Semantics NLP and Neurosemantics on the other hand correlate well with what I see in the Church.
As far as GS, NLP, and NS, I very much agree with you. I find them very congruent even with the work of my favorite contemplatives. And yet, especially because of the four quadrants idea and the nine fulcrums, I have to say that in essence I have to agree with Wilber as well, my area of interest being precisely those fulcrums, both scholastically and experientially.
Recall that I said that L. Michael Hall wrote “movie mind”…wow, what a discovery, our minds create movies and that is how we understand and how we generate thoughts.
Remember the Master of communication was Jesus….He created our means of communication. Recall in NLP we reframe. Jesus routinely reframed. The Pharisees said this and he would answer you say…and I say…He used what we call NLP.
Movie mind, new discovery, I don’t think so…Jesus taught in parables because He knew how our minds worked and so he created little movies for us to learn.
How utterly fascinating! You are the only other one in my experience who has come to this conclusion! It may be out there as an idea, but no one I know has voiced it. That is admirable. I think you are spot on. It goes, in my opinion, with Mark 4:33,34.
This I find useful…
🙂
 
(continued)
How utterly fascinating! You are the only other one in my experience who has come to this conclusion! It may be out there as an idea, but no one I know has voiced it. That is admirable. I think you are spot on. It goes, in my opinion, with Mark 4:33,34.

🙂
For my part, I am a student of awareness, that which, it could be said, is the vessel of thought in both senses of the word. While it is useful in many regards to manipulate thoughts, one has to ask “what holds these thoughts that they can so readily be moved about with the resulting changes in behavior?”
I am no genius. I have a solid map that is engrained with Catholic Thought and over time I have constantly tested it. You may want to search NLP/Christianity. Bodenhmer is a Protestant and Protestants have discovered NLP.

godrules.net/NeuroSemantics_Articals_BobBodenhamerandMichaelHall_NewAge.html

I was raised in a Roman Catholic family of Cultural identity. I attended a Roman Catholic Church as a child into my teens run by Irish Catholic priests. I was taught by Dominican Sisters. I attended High School with Brothers of St. Patrick and Brothers of La Salle. So I had Irish, Italian, French and other Catholic influences and later I became interested in the East and now I feel complete. My heart is in the East.

As a student of NLP you know that “why” drives you crazy and asking your mind “what” and “how” is the way to get answers.

Why do I do this or that? Who cares.

What do I do that I want to change? How do I choose to change it? Then comes the answer and the changing of thoughts. This is consistent with Catholic Christian thought.

Maps/paradigms are nothing more than languages. I have interest in speaking different languages. I speak more than one language. I discovered that understanding other maps is like speaking different languages. I know and understand many different maps. The way I get to the bottom of the map is by what is called “chunking down” asking questions. I like my map. I am secure in my map. My map is the mind of the Church, incomplete but being filled regularly. I believe that the manifold wisdom of God is made known through the Church and since I have not filled that vessel there is no room for those that question “I am” or “Is”….this is like asking “why”. If you find this interesting and helpful great.

I can learn to speak Wilber and converse with those that have Wilber in their head…but as for me and my house, I will serve the Lord, I speak Christ crucified and I am not ashamed of the Gospel…this works for me and the World reflects that.

When you ask questions like what holds these thoughts you should realize that the beauty of NLP is that you do not have to understand how or why something is what it is you just have to know that it does and make use of it. This is attractive. I spent years as a Psychology major and found this study useless, trying to figure out how the mind works. NLP works by using how it works without trying to figure out why.
For my part, I am a student of awareness, that which, it could be said, is the vessel of thought in both senses of the word. While it is useful in many regards to manipulate thoughts, one has to ask “what holds these thoughts that they can so readily be moved about with the resulting changes in behavior?”
In summary if your map requires you to ask questions like this then I suggest you investigate NLP more as this is less important than knowing that it does work and does prove to change behavior, why it works does not help in the process of doing in my opinion.🙂
 
I am no genius. I have a solid map that is engrained with Catholic Thought and over time I have constantly tested it.
And I’m sure that all the tests came back positive 🙂
You may want to search NLP/Christianity. Bodenhmer is a Protestant and Protestants have discovered NLP.
No thanks. Full plate syndrome.
I was raised in a Roman Catholic family of Cultural identity. I attended a Roman Catholic Church as a child into my teens run by Irish Catholic priests. I was taught by Dominican Sisters. I attended High School with Brothers of St. Patrick and Brothers of La Salle. So I had Irish, Italian, French and other Catholic influences and later I became interested in the East and now I feel complete. My heart is in the East.
That’s quite a background! And I’m sure that you mean Coptic, not Hindu or Buddhist. I have had a fascination with Egypt for a number of reasons, but I guess it all came from my Dad being a rather good armchair Egyptologist.
As a student of NLP you know that “why” drives you crazy and asking your mind “what” and “how” is the way to get answers.
Yes, the latter two are my main pursuits.
Why do I do this or that? Who cares.
Not me, really.Only part of the equation, as far as I can see, but yes.
What do I do that I want to change? How do I choose to change it? Then comes the answer and the changing of thoughts. This is consistent with Catholic Christian thought.
OK
Maps/paradigms are nothing more than languages. I have interest in speaking different languages. I speak more than one language. I discovered that understanding other maps is like speaking different languages. I know and understand many different maps. The way I get to the bottom of the map is by what is called “chunking down” asking questions. I like my map. I am secure in my map. My map is the mind of the Church, incomplete but being filled regularly. I believe that the manifold wisdom of God is made known through the Church and since I have not filled that vessel there is no room for those that question “I am” or “Is”….this is like asking “why”. If you find this interesting and helpful great.
I’m really not at all interested in any of that in a “why” kind of way, and I’m not clear how you came to that impression. I am, though, interested in the "paper: the maps are written on, as it seems that any sort of map can be printed on it, so to speak, and just because it’s on there, the holder takes it for real, So to me the paper is much more interesting. It is so because I am bi-lingual in a non-Indo-European language and can switch filters as I wish, and for another reason that made me see that any language and any map is on blank “paper,” essentially. I’m quite sure that that will mean nothing to you, but it is rather crucial to me.
I can learn to speak Wilber and converse with those that have Wilber in their head…but as for me and my house, I will serve the Lord, I speak Christ crucified and I am not ashamed of the Gospel…this works for me and the World reflects that.
That is wonderful. Not many people I know are that solid.
When you ask questions like what holds these thoughts you should realize that the beauty of NLP is that you do not have to understand how or why something is what it is you just have to know that it does and make use of it. This is attractive. I spent years as a Psychology major and found this study useless, trying to figure out how the mind works. NLP works by using how it works without trying to figure out why.
So “what” and "how’ are the questions to ask to avoid the madness of “why” which is what I;m doing, but in my case that translates as “why?” Not sure how that works.
In summary if your map requires you to ask questions like this then I suggest you investigate NLP more as this is less important than knowing that it does work and does prove to change behavior, why it works does not help in the process of doing in my opinion.🙂
Well, I even, without asking that question, have a small clue in some instances as to why, but again, I am rather mystified as to how you come to regard my whating and howing is a whying? I realy don’t give a hoot about that. 🙂
 
No wars have ever been fought over science.
No wars have ever been fought over science, it is certain that science was used to increase the death toll - considering things like gun powder, artillery, mustard gas, cyanide gas, V1/V2 rockets, atom bomb, agent orange, napalm, etc.
 
And I’m sure that all the tests came back positive 🙂 No thanks. Full plate syndrome.That’s quite a background! And I’m sure that you mean Coptic, not Hindu or Buddhist. I have had a fascination with Egypt for a number of reasons, but I guess it all came from my Dad being a rather good armchair Egyptologist. Yes, the latter two are my main pursuits.Not me, really.Only part of the equation, as far as I can see, but yes.OKI’m really not at all interested in any of that in a “why” kind of way, and I’m not clear how you came to that impression. I am, though, interested in the "paper: the maps are written on, as it seems that any sort of map can be printed on it, so to speak, and just because it’s on there, the holder takes it for real, So to me the paper is much more interesting. It is so because I am bi-lingual in a non-Indo-European language and can switch filters as I wish, and for another reason that made me see that any language and any map is on blank “paper,” essentially. I’m quite sure that that will mean nothing to you, but it is rather crucial to me.That is wonderful. Not many people I know are that solid.So “what” and "how’ are the questions to ask to avoid the madness of “why” which is what I;m doing, but in my case that translates as “why?” Not sure how that works. Well, I even, without asking that question, have a small clue in some instances as to why, but again, I am rather mystified as to how you come to regard my whating and howing is a whying? I realy don’t give a hoot about that. 🙂
This is an inquiry as to why. What holds these thoughts? Dunno. They are held in this mush of brain.
what holds these thoughts that they can so readily be moved about with the resulting changes in behavior?"
Enjoy your inquiry.🙂

Behavior changes because as Aquinas says all actions require intentions and the intentions originate in our maps and are filtered. These are in essence as Neurosemantics puts it meta states. Whatever meta state you are in results in that behavior. That is all I need to know. Manage your meta states and you manage your behavior.🙂
 
This is an inquiry as to why. What holds these thoughts? Dunno. They are held in this mush of brain
What =why? Really? And a materialist you are? :).
Enjoy your inquiry.🙂
Been for a while. Organizational joy of my life!
Behavior changes because as Aquinas says all actions require intentions and the intentions originate in our maps and are filtered. These are in essence as Neurosemantics puts it meta states. Whatever meta state you are in results in that behavior. That is all I need to know. Manage your meta states and you manage your behavior.🙂
What manages the meta states? It must be outside them, eh?
 
What =why? Really? And a materialist you are? :).
Been for a while. Organizational joy of my life!
What manages the meta states? It must be outside them, eh?
You believe that I am telling you that what = why and that does not make sense. I suggest that what I see is this.

Why does my brain work the way it does? What holds the thoughts that they can be so readily moved? What causes these thoughts to move? What causes these thoughts to change behavior? In the context of “what” you ask the motivation to question what had to have been preceed by a “why”. You don’t see it but ask yourself this. Did I ask what to determine a how for a problem or am I looking at understanding the mechanics of what it does?
what holds these thoughts that they can so readily be moved about with the resulting changes in behavior?"
I have thoughts. Thoughts cause me to behave one way or the other. What behavior do I want to change? How do I do it? What thoughts do I have that determine that behavior? How it happens is not part of the solution.

Meta states are like this. We take in the world by vision, auditory, Kinesthetic, olfactory, gustatory and sensory means. This is true for everyone across the board. We all filter that information with deletions, generalization and distortion.

I see an orange, smell an orange, taste an orange eat an orange. Your filters will determine whether or not the orange is just an orange.

Your ability to recall what an orange means to you is what is called “submodality”. The terminology does not make sense but that is what it is called. It is the first order of “movie in your mind”. Meta is what comes after and goes like this.

My image of an orange. I like Oranges, I eat oranges. I think they are good for you. Meta means going beyond. I then say when I see an orange I have this feeling of joy. I then ask what do I think of this feeling of joy? I then say how do I feel about the thought that when I see an orange I get this feeling of joy.?..etc…What do I think…How do I feel about it…

In this process of chunking down you get to a point where you have an ability to change one of those meta states.

When I see an Orange I recall slipping and falling on an orange so I avoid oranges. This makes me feel sad. I think that this feeling of sadness makes me avoid oranges. I feel like I would like to eat oranges. I think that my desire to eat oranges could change. I feel that if I could get over the recollection of slipping and falling would help me like oranges…this is when you do the following.

Let me recall the image of slipping and falling and then recreate that movie and edit it, change it, and use it to change the thoughts you have about the orange and then when you see oranges you will have a different movie and you may be able to eat oranges.

Now this is all good stuff…but recall John The Baptist…

Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand…

Repent=Change your mind…

Jesus, the master communicator created this thing between our heads and used this to cause us to see things differently…change your mind…that is all it is…Who cares what holds those thoughts…?

St. Paul on straight street…blind and then like scales falling from his eyes…he saw what he could not see before…why? Because he was converted…no…because he repented…his mind was changed to see what he saw before in a way it was meant to be seen…He had a Meta state change that allowed him to change his behavior…

Your asking what manages the Meta states is again trying to unerstand how your brain works and that is not the thrust of NLP or Neurosemantics. It is knowing that certain things happen the way they do with predictable outcome and using them. Why? Because it does.

What manages our Meta States? Our brains, grey matter, white matter, synapses, neurotransmitters, emotions, and with all of that knowledge find one Neurosurgeon that understands how to stop smoking.

Get it!🙂

Ken Wilber is trying to put together a paradigm of understanding. I see General Semantics, NLP and Neurosemantics simplifying our understanding with a model that I can use to compare it to what is in the Bible. Ken Wilber is creating a paradigm of understanding that in my opinion is not simplifying and does not relate to what I see in the Bible. I am. God Is. Amen. On to life.🙂
 
You believe that…etc,
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. But NLP, GS, an NS are not the fields I’m plowing, so to speak, as very useful as two of them have been for me so far. All of my inquiries are based on “What?” E.G: “What does it mean if I have no thoughts, no sensations, no sense of duration, and yet I am present without qualifications or modifiers? What is that?” That’s not in the realm of thought. I could, as I said, give a hoot about why it is, I want to know what.
 
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. But NLP, GS, an NS are not the fields I’m plowing, so to speak, as very useful as two of them have been for me so far. All of my inquiries are based on “What?” E.G: “What does it mean if I have no thoughts, no sensations, no sense of duration, and yet I am present without qualifications or modifiers? What is that?” That’s not in the realm of thought. I could, as I said, give a hoot about why it is, I want to know what.
As a trained hypnotherapist I would say you are in a trance.🙂
 
CC, re your post #309 in another thread:
No. I have known about this for years in my search for a course. They do not offer courses, just seminars. I thought that they would have courses however nothing as simple as an online course or courses in General Semantics. I would not suggest this to anyone as a place to get a course. I have searched all the major local universities. Where is it you found this audio course?
In a trance.
 
CC, re your post #309 in another thread:In a trance.
Fantastic. If you found it in a trance then you will agree that it remains a part of you subconcious. Your conscious mind as you know is not all you are aware of. May I ask you to spend some time emptying your mind of thoughts, sensations, sense of time, and as you are present without qualifications or modifiers imagine where you found that course because it is still stored there and can be easily retrieved. You may not know that all hypnosis is self hypnosis and the more you practice the better you get. That’s in the realm of thought. Let me know when it comes to mind.🙂
 
For Micorizea and CopticChristian particularly: or Anyone else…

I have found your discussions really fascinating and pretty deep at times. But, I’m curious: How have your studies in psycho-neuro mechanics and thought processing brought you into a fuller understanding of the nature of God, or our relationship to God as individual human beings? I guess the idea of atheism as a ‘new religion’ has been properly dispatched. Are we still discussing ‘new religion’. I think I’m looking for a summary of some kind. Anyone else want to pop in here?
 
For Micorizea and CopticChristian particularly: or Anyone else…

I have found your discussions really fascinating and pretty deep at times. But, I’m curious: How have your studies in psycho-neuro mechanics and thought processing brought you into a fuller understanding of the nature of God, or our relationship to God as individual human beings? I guess the idea of atheism as a ‘new religion’ has been properly dispatched. Are we still discussing ‘new religion’. I think I’m looking for a summary of some kind. Anyone else want to pop in here?
Yes, I am popping.😃
 
For Micorizea and CopticChristian particularly: or Anyone else…

I have found your discussions really fascinating and pretty deep at times. But, I’m curious: How have your studies in psycho-neuro mechanics and thought processing brought you into a fuller understanding of the nature of God, or our relationship to God as individual human beings? I guess the idea of atheism as a ‘new religion’ has been properly dispatched. Are we still discussing ‘new religion’. I think I’m looking for a summary of some kind. Anyone else want to pop in here?
Let me ask you a question. What have you found fascinating and deep about the discussions:)?
 
For Micorizea and CopticChristian particularly: or Anyone else…

I have found your discussions really fascinating and pretty deep at times. But, I’m curious: How have your studies in psycho-neuro mechanics and thought processing brought you into a fuller understanding of the nature of God, or our relationship to God as individual human beings? I guess the idea of atheism as a ‘new religion’ has been properly dispatched. Are we still discussing ‘new religion’. I think I’m looking for a summary of some kind. Anyone else want to pop in here?
Toosan,

No responses. Let me share with you a summary of mine. Everytime I go looking for something or have questions I have found answers in the writings of the Church.

Example. If Jesus was human in all ways he had to have an X and a Y chromosome. So where did the Y chromosome come from. I found it, darn cannot recall where, but in the writings of Augustine…the answer…spend time pondering other than mystery. Yes Augustine must have had someone come to him and speak of the material from mom and dad because genetics was not yet discussed however it was within the realm of what part comes from dad and what part comes from mom.

I take the letter of Paul to the Romans seriously. Paul says you can look in the world and see the work of God. Not in the Bible but in the world. So I take this to heart and look for things that correlate with that. When I discovered General Semantics, NLP, Neurosemantics, knowing Bodenhammer, one of the figures in the field was a Baptist minister I figured wow…is there something to be written about Christianity and NLP and yup there was.

Then I put it all together this way. NLP says if you want to excel at something, anything find someone that has done it and emulate them. There is a whole body of literature and books on this. Robert Dilts one of the founders of NLP wrote “Strategies of Genius” studying how those that have used their minds do it.

Let me back track. NLP came out of the study of people like Virginia Satir, Family Therapist, Milton Erickson, hypnotherapist and I believe Fritz Perls, I may be wrong but people that were in the field of trying to change behavior. Richard Bandler, a computer whiz, discovered that he could use the words, intonations and patterns of speech to do what these guys did and get the same results. Thus the concept of modeling behavior.

Now back to the summary. Every Christian believes follow Christ. Well that is what NLP teaches. Every Christian says and reads put on the mind of Christ. Here is where it gets interesting. How does that mind work. General Semantics, NLP, Neurosemantics gives us insights as to how to get results from our minds without trying to figure out how it works. We just know that doing certain things cause certain things.

NLP is filled with notions such as “reframing”…guess what Jesus reframed. General Semantics states “the map is not the territory” when you read the letter to the Romans you see Paul redining the territory or rearranging the map of the audience to which he speaks. Neurosemantics is about the movies in our minds and how those movies affect our behavior. Jesus taught in parables…stories…movies.

So if you want to put on the mind of Christ, it would help to know what you can do to make it work effectively and all the elements that you find in the world ie General Semantic, NLP and Neurosemantics are right there in the Bible.

So you can look in the world and see the workings of God defined by those who had no intention of showing the workings of God and yet they did. When you read the documents of the Church you see all these elements at work.

I spent years studying Zen, Hindu beliefs, Tao, Yoga, Hari Krishna…and an Eastern Catholic priest told me that I would find more mysticism in the writings of the Church than anywhere else and he was correct…and when I see anyone bringing information that cannot be summarized and easy to understand I gotta stop and ask…what is the sound of one hand clapping…If information does not clarify, in my opinion it is not worth listening to…

That is my summary…hope that helped. What I am telling you is not difficult to understand and if someone presents something to you that is difficult to understand then question in your mind…what is their map like???:confused:

I tend to avoid discussions that do not clarify and leave me confused.

In my opinion information that is useful should be transmitted in an easy to understand and useful way that can be used so as to not require you to return to me to figure out how to use it. You can figure it our for yourself. OK…👍
 
Your question, Toosan, is a very good one. Thanks for asking it.

Though I am a licensed first level NLP practitioner, that is not by any means my source or main avenue for “understanding the (N)ature of God.” In fact, that is something I would never claim, as the word “understanding,” as we commonly use it, refers to an intellectual understanding. I think that we can agree that the Greater cannot be contained by the lesser. What we do do, up to a point, is to build, by some means or another, either by absorption or acquisition, deliberate or not, some way to think about our experience. Thinking comes to us naturally, as part of the human package. That thinking tends to mature through several stages and several levels of maturity. Some say that there are roughly nine such stages, each including but transcending the previous.

One of the things we think about is who and what we are. Those two can be, at least after a point, be readily distinguished from each other. And one of the things that we learn to do, some of us, anyway, is to think critically about our own thinking. Various disciplines address this, eg, philosophy in general, religion of course, and more lately in history, as we seem to become over-all more reflexive in our thinking, such things as epistemology, teleology, phenomenology, and other -ologies. Latest, but not all and in no order, of these are such things as General Semantics, NLP, & NS, at least as publicly recognizable and usable bodies of applicable ideas that do not result in witch hunts or burnings at the stake.

CopticChristian has brilliantly recognized that these were all used in some form by Our Master and other Biblical figures. For my part, I’d generalize that over the class of folks we might call “adepts” or “healers,” the latter being actually a title attributed to Jesus before some things changed in accepted Biblical language.

But the point here is, and I continue to agree with CC about this, is that the Parables of Jesus and His whole story give us material at different levels of engagement to do a “cut and paste” using portrayals of ideals as models to substitute for our often less-than-mature and undisciplined ways, particularly in regards to the Golden Rule and the Great Commandments, which in imho constitute all of the practicality of religion and philosophy. there is even a very discernible reason for this, but that is another book.

The beauty of NLP, etc, is that it seems to or can provide a step that appears to be inadequately addressed by religions, even ours. That is that while we are given what to cut and paste, we are lacking in techniques as to how. Prayer and contemplation may be helpful, but those work in another direction most usefully, if you ask me. And faith and morals are wonderful, but they are most usually imposed from without, with the added threat of damnation if they are not followed. These threats in the case of a mature Christian or one who is sufficiently accomplished in any functioning ethic, are completely unnecessary. Again, there is a reason for that, but you can figure it out on your own, if you think about it.

So what NLP and GS do for me, among others, relative to a spiritual life, is to inform me of certain conditions and dynamics of mentality that are useful for going beyond it, and reporting back within the framework of discursive thought more accurately what exactly transpired. If you read some of the mystics, and especially contemplatives, who are but advanced mystics, you will find that they are exquisitely adept at parsing their experience and teasing our meaning.

That is how these disciplines are useful to me, as tools, rather than ends, in a project of much larger scope than simply changing my mind. One can actually discover what mortal mind is, and have thereby a grounding in something that is ineffable, yet foundationally indispensable in the un-mattering of soul.
 
Fantastic. If you found it in a trance then you will agree that it remains a part of you subconcious. Your conscious mind as you know is not all you are aware of. May I ask you to spend some time emptying your mind of thoughts, sensations, sense of time, and as you are present without qualifications or modifiers imagine where you found that course because it is still stored there and can be easily retrieved. You may not know that all hypnosis is self hypnosis and the more you practice the better you get. That’s in the realm of thought. Let me know when it comes to mind.🙂
nicholasjohnson.org/wjohnson/wjaudio/

There may be more. I googled, Binged, or whatever “general semantics, course”

M
 
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